Coastguard Heli Services to be cut in Waterford

Trotter

This is an absolutely ludicrous decision.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0315/coastguard.html

Its an amazing example of how low we can go to save a few euro. With the ports of Waterford, Rosslare, Dunmore and Kinsale so close by, and coastal towns such as Youghal and Tramore etc, how can this be even considered!?

Hooch

Trotter wrote: »

This is an absolutely ludicrous decision.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0315/coastguard.html

Its an amazing example of how low we can go to save a few euro. With the ports of Waterford, Rosslare, Dunmore and Kinsale so close by, and coastal towns such as Youghal and Tramore etc, how can this be even considered!?

I can only assume they looked at the number of night time opps which musnt have been much. Terrible state of affairs though cutting any SAR units. One life saved justifies any amount of money in my books.

syklops

Shame they don't cut the government Jet before they cut this.

deadwood

I bet the Government Jet can fly after hours of darkness? (most off-licence opening ceremonies take place in the evening!

Maybe if they stopped flying ministers around in military choppers too, they could divert some of the money saved to Waterford?

syklops

Personally I think bord snip nua should have recommended the selling of the Government Jet. And when they want to fly somewhere they can take our so called National Airline.

Could a reason for this be the closeness of the RAF SAR services along the southwest of England?

Hooch

foreign wrote: »

Could a reason for this be the closeness of the RAF SAR services along the southwest of England?

Possibly. CHC were awarded all SAP ops in England last month....so from next year RAF will stop doing SAR.

So....since CHC are presently running SAR ops here....and are the front contender for the new tender.....maybe they are combining their efforts cross border??

Sisu200

There is merit in them using a chc based helicopter in the uk to cover the south east however i do know that the waterford helicopter has the lowest number of callouts out of the four bases, however i agree if they only are used once a year to save 1 life then it is well worth it, this base showed its worth when the tradgedies at dunmore east occured,




it's amazing just last friday to watch 2 air corp helicopters circuling naas and newbridge for the day, mind you it was a nice day to be out:rolleyes: more than one million euros been utilised there:mad:

punchdrunk

Well I hope the Minister can sleep well the next time a boat is lost within easy reach of Rescue,all for the cost of a few junkets for the old boys club

obviously all the ministers have their own yachts tied up safely in Howth or Dun Laoghaire...

alexlyons

I don't car how many callouts any base gets, one is enough for it to be there (realistically speaking, obviously you can't have a base every 10 miles!).

They're about to award a new tender, if CHC really want it, tell them to knock €10m off the contract over ten years, and bang, you've got 24 hour service in all bases. If I can come up with that within 10 seconds of hearing this, someone else can work on the finer details and make it work, it's perfectly possible.

What's with the government cutting back on life saving services? Cervical cancer vaccines and now this... what's next, no ambulances at night? never say never with this government!

I've done a bit of work with coastal SAR teams and the gratitude shown by almost all the people we've rescued etc is incredible. I guarantee you that if any of them could stump the €1m for a years service, they'd do it, as they are the ones who really know what it's like to have the service, not the ministers in there offices. You can't put a value on human life, and even if you could, it'd be well above €1m a year.

It's a disgrace.

alexlyons

punchdrunk wrote: »

obviously all the ministers have their own yachts tied up safely in Howth or Dun Laoghaire...

work down in Dún Laoghaire 5 days a week, let me know which ones they are and i'll cut 'em loose

maglite

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10150150711115179&ref=search&sid=1043729179.3261456248..1

Just got sent the above link.

I would be interested in hearing where 1million comes from. I mean all your capital expenditure is still there etc. It should only be crew costsfor the year? Are they that well paid?

Trotter

Lads and Ladies of the Emergency Services forum, we could really do with your support in the South East to maintain this service. We haven't long before the contracts will be signed. Email addresses of some relevant people below. Thanks for your help.


brendan.kenneally@oireachtas.ie
john.deasy@oireachtas.ie
martin.cullen@oireachtas.ie
brian.oshea@oireachtas.ie
eamon.gilmore@oireachtas.ie
enda.kenny@finegael.ie
eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie
Dan.Boyle@oireachtas.ie
john.gormley@oireachtas.ie
taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie
noel.dempsey@oireachtas.ie
brian.crowley@europarl.europa.eu,
alan.kelly@europarl.europa.eu,
sean.kelly@europarl.europa.eu

nice guy always wrote: »

Possibly. CHC were awarded all SAP ops in England last month....so from next year RAF will stop doing SAR.

So....since CHC are presently running SAR ops here....and are the front contender for the new tender.....maybe they are combining their efforts cross border??

From what I can gather, the nearest UK base to the South East is Chivenor, and they're also being downgraded to 12 hour so that won't be any use to us at all. We'd be relying on Cornwall.

punchdrunk

maglite wrote: »

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10150150711115179&ref=search&sid=1043729179.3261456248..1

Just got sent the above link.

I would be interested in hearing where 1million comes from. I mean all your capital expenditure is still there etc. It should only be crew costsfor the year? Are they that well paid?

when you break it down that there's about 25-30 crew per base,you'd easily get 1 mil per yer

if they're doing half the shifts it's an excuse to only rehire half the crew

from memory the lads normally work from 1pm to 1pm the next day inc going home on a pager at night from 9pm-7am

the lads do a heck of alot of night decks as training,as these ops would be the hardest to do
this could be slashed to save on fuel/maintenance

honestly the Coastguard/the A&E staff/the Ambulance service/the fire brigade/the Gardaí NONE of these should be touched

thanks God at least the Lifeboats and the Mountain Rescue teams aren't funded by these Morons

maglite

I'm going to make a few assumptions here and please correct me if i'm off the mark.

25 people, how many of them are on shift, I assume there are mechanics, support staff, clerical/admin roles etc An elimination of the night shift will not effect most of that staff. The staff cuts, again a cost, would be limited I would think. 5-6 At most.#

€1million just seems like a nice number to make up as a saving, Not that I would accuse my fine Government of easy statistics

punchdrunk

also just because CHC hold the contracts on both sides doesn't mean they can choose to task their machines to do what jobs they like, they're still under the control of MRCC and the UK equivalent

your adding extra bureaucracy if it means a call goes to 999,then MRCC,then UK coastguard HQ and then to CHC UK

obviously UK SAR would get preference too,so if it was a bad storm with a few shouts they'd have to look after their own patch first

punchdrunk

maglite wrote: »

I'm going to make a few assumptions here and please correct me if i'm off the mark.

25 people, how many of them are on shift, I assume there are mechanics, support staff, clerical/admin roles etc An elimination of the night shift will not effect most of that staff. The staff cuts, again a cost, would be limited I would think. 5-6 At most.#

€1million just seems like a nice number to make up as a saving, Not that I would accuse my fine Government of easy statistics

from memory again pilot/co-pilot/winch op/winch man/two engineers
on every shift 24/7 365
plus admin people on duty during the day

I think there's four crews per base,there has to be because the number of flight hours a person can do in a month is very tightly controlled by the Department

alexlyons

I recall the January 2007 Tragedy.

7 Men Lost
6 Days
Three Trawlers

RIP Fella's

Without that chopper on nights, many more would have been and will be lost.

Trotter

Sisu200 wrote: »

There is merit in them using a chc based helicopter in the uk to cover the south east however i do know that the waterford helicopter has the lowest number of callouts out of the four bases, however i agree if they only are used once a year to save 1 life then it is well worth it, this base showed its worth when the tradgedies at dunmore east occured,

As far as I'm aware, Waterford did not have the lowest number of calls of all centres in 2009.

Also, as the nearest UK base in Chivenor is also going 12 hour under CHC, I really do fear for the level of night cover on the south coast.

Random

Life saving resources shouldn't be cut. Go and cut down the lavish cars ministers drive, the big houses they live in, the big payments and expenses they get, the wasted money spent on various things.

Live saving services should always be no1 priority.

Trotter

Again could I ask anyone who posts here if they have a few mins to spare if they could send an email to our "Minister" reminding him of the gaping stupidity of this decision.

We really need all the help we can get down here in the South. I've seen first hand the good this service has done for people in making sure their relatives make it home alive.

Thanks everyone..

s.a.r100

Trotter wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, Waterford did not have the lowest number of calls of all centres in 2009.

Also, as the nearest UK base in Chivenor is also going 12 hour under CHC, I really do fear for the level of night cover on the south coast.

hi guys ,i agree with you trotter in fact they were one of the busiest as far as i can make out,i have known them to handle two or three in a day.they have been tasked twice scene Sunday already this week

Beeker

s.a.r100 wrote: »

hi guys ,i agree with you trotter in fact they were one of the busiest as far as i can make out,i have known them to handle two or three in a day.they have been tasked twice scene Sunday already this week

Correct and they are out right now in the Galty Mountains. This is a service for the entire south and southeast region. This decision needs to be reversed.
Everybody please thake the time to e-mail from Trotters list above.

Sisu200

Trotter, I know a guy who works in SAR heli operations, he told me the callout rate for Waterford is the reason it seems why it was moved down to only daylight operation, this was not the official line and the department of Transport has not officially announced the results of the tender and why Waterford is been moved to daylight operations this is due to be officially made in a couple of weeks when full details of the service, helicopter provision and base operations will be set out, again it is simply a point I wanted to make people aware why this valuable service is been changed to daylight 12 hour operation, we will know the official line in a couple of weeks and as already mentioned, time to start campaigning the TD's etc and make them aware that this is a ridiculous decision that should be reversed for the sake of €1 mln euros per year,
I am halfways through the list of Email addresses!!

Trotter

Sisu200 wrote: »

Trotter, I know a guy who works in SAR heli operations, he told me the callout rate for Waterford is the reason it seems why it was moved down to only daylight operation, this was not the official line and the department of Transport has not officially announced the results of the tender and why Waterford is been moved to daylight operations this is due to be officially made in a couple of weeks when full details of the service, helicopter provision and base operations will be set out, again it is simply a point I wanted to make people aware why this valuable service is been changed to daylight 12 hour operation, we will know the official line in a couple of weeks and as already mentioned, time to start campaigning the TD's etc and make them aware that this is a ridiculous decision that should be reversed for the sake of €1 mln euros per year,
I am halfways through the list of Email addresses!!

I know we are not the quietest centre. The stats don't support the downgrading of the night service.

Sisu200

Trotter wrote: »

The stats don't support the downgrading of the night service.

Absolutely, no question about this, this is a service we cannot afford to let just slip away like all the others the authorities have managed to quietly hide away!

Hooch

Right guys....I received a PM asking to verify some info on the thread. It is fact.

Waterford was not the quietest base last year.

There is no "administrator" at the base. There is one for the whole operation and she is based in Shannon.

It is irrelevant that CHC have contract in UK. The operations are controlled by the relevant Coast Guards.

It is true that Chivenor is also going 12 hour and the SRR (SAR region) is being extended to the west therefore you now have two heli's at night covering an area from Galway around to Belfast out to 250nm. Nearest one after that is in Cornwall.

Dont think we need to get into who is the quietest etc......it doesnt matter in SAR ops.

s.a.r100

quite right if they only had one night time tasking in the year its one live saved,we have a very busy shipping lane right down the Irish sea and then heading west with a string of ports from arklow right down to kinsale that includes two major container and ferry ports with numerous fishing ports so the probability of a medevac is very real,be it day or night

999/112

Hi folks,
I have just copied this from a different forum and stuck it here for ye.;)

tom_ass19 wrote: »

Hey guys,

Just thought I would pass this around since its a very important subject. The south-east coast guard based out of Waterford is planning to be restricted to daylight services only.

It only takes a moment and will save peoples lives.

Click here for the petition

goldie fish

What is forgotten by some(govt included) is that the people these helis save need not ever have, or intend visiting Ireland. A quick view of AIS on the south east/south west coast and you see a multitude of merchant vessels making their way from the english channel, the busiest sea lane in the world, and passing close by our coast on their way to the US and elsewhere.
Its sunday morning, and AIS tells me there are 80 ships... thats ships, not yachts or other watercraft, operating off the east and south coast
If there was a storm on this fine morning, the type that is not uncommon this time of year, would the helicopters in Dublin and Shannon be able to deal with all the calls? Sligo would be busy enough covering the north west.
Crewmen getting injured after falling while trying to secure loose cargo, or slipping on moving decks...even things as simple as a heart condition, made worse by the stress of working in unprotected seas?
Do those who decided on downgrading have any idea what these aircraft do?

I propose the decision makers spend 3 hours in an open boat, in open water,say 12 miles off tramore with a wonky engine, in fog. Actually forget the wonky engine. Put them in a liferaft.
After that I'll happily accept their recommendations.

Hooch

goldie fish wrote: »

What is forgotten by some(govt included) is that the people these helis save need not ever have, or intend visiting Ireland. A quick view of AIS on the south east/south west coast and you see a multitude of merchant vessels making their way from the english channel, the busiest sea lane in the world, and passing close by our coast on their way to the US and elsewhere.
Its sunday morning, and AIS tells me there are 80 ships... thats ships, not yachts or other watercraft, operating off the east and south coast
If there was a storm on this fine morning, the type that is not uncommon this time of year, would the helicopters in Dublin and Shannon be able to deal with all the calls? Sligo would be busy enough covering the north west.
Crewmen getting injured after falling while trying to secure loose cargo, or slipping on moving decks...even things as simple as a heart condition, made worse by the stress of working in unprotected seas?
Do those who decided on downgrading have any idea what these aircraft do?

I propose the decision makers spend 3 hours in an open boat, in open water,say 12 miles off tramore with a wonky engine, in fog. Actually forget the wonky engine. Put them in a liferaft.
After that I'll happily accept their recommendations.

A little off topic but here goes.......might show people how important a heli base is.

For anyone who is interested and does not have an AIS reciever/screen here is a useful website to see traffic.

http://marinetraffic.com/ais/

Note this only shows vessels over 500GT (or 300GT for transatlantic) and all passenger vessels. Solas requires them to have class A.

Some vessels, like Rescue boats have Class b which you will also see.

As goldie said......it does not show smal crafts.

silverharp

ye might need to box clever. As someone who has done night sailing between Ireland and England, I'll take all the "free" services I can get my hands on. But at the same time leisure boats are free to avoid the area at night and maybe commercial traffic via their insurance or some such mechanism should be asked to contribute.
Either that or you need to argue that the balance of the budget should come from the Air Corps perhaps or from part of the naval budget.

Elessar

Why do the air corps not contribute to SAR services?

Hooch

Elessar wrote: »

Why do the air corps not contribute to SAR services?

Because SAR ops is managed by IrCG. They put out to tender for the service. The Air Corps tendered for this one....but were more expensive than CHC.
They dont have the aircraft and so would have to buy new.....they would also have to retrain pilots and crew. If they got the contract their budget would increase.

Its all down to dept budgets

Elessar

nice guy always wrote: »

Because SAR ops is managed by IrCG. They put out to tender for the service. The Air Corps tendered for this one....but were more expensive than CHC.
They dont have the aircraft and so would have to buy new.....they would also have to retrain pilots and crew. If they got the contract their budget would increase.

Its all down to dept budgets

:rolleyes:

Bureaucracy and anything Irish seem to go hand in hand. I've seen the AC choppers and they are big enough to fit a winch and haul someone aboard. Why did they have to "tender" in the first place? Are they not a state asset? Called to do whatever is required?

Here's an idea. Fit a winch to the AC choppers, send the crew to the IrcG to train for a few weeks on how to lift said winch, then call upon them to respond whenever the IrcG have no cover. Take a breath now, I know that's a lot to ask for!

Trotter

Elessar wrote: »

Here's an idea. Fit a winch to the AC choppers, send the crew to the IrcG to train for a few weeks on how to lift said winch, then call upon them to respond whenever the IrcG have no cover. Take a breath now, I know that's a lot to ask for!

I think you're underestimating the skills involved in SAR operations. Its not something that can be done in a few weeks.

CHC do this cheaper than the Aer Corps would cost us. I really think we need to refocus on how we can overturn this decision. We're giving it too much legitimacy even mentioning the Aer Corps. Thats a non starter.

goldie fish

Elessar wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Bureaucracy and anything Irish seem to go hand in hand. I've seen the AC choppers and they are big enough to fit a winch and haul someone aboard. Why did they have to "tender" in the first place? Are they not a state asset? Called to do whatever is required?

Here's an idea. Fit a winch to the AC choppers, send the crew to the IrcG to train for a few weeks on how to lift said winch, then call upon them to respond whenever the IrcG have no cover. Take a breath now, I know that's a lot to ask for!

Perhaps you sshould look at the Accident report of Dh248, which explains very well why the Air Corps should not do SAR.
Air Corps AW139s are routinely fitted with a winch. But as others say theres a lot more to SAR than just the dope on a rope.

Hooch

goldie fish wrote: »

Perhaps you sshould look at the Accident report of Dh248, which explains very well why the Air Corps should not do SAR.
Air Corps AW139s are routinely fitted with a winch. But as others say theres a lot more to SAR than just the dope on a rope.

Lets not get into this guys.....thanks

Sisu200

Trotter wrote: »

Lads and Ladies of the Emergency Services forum, we could really do with your support in the South East to maintain this service. We haven't long before the contracts will be signed. Email addresses of some relevant people below. Thanks for your help.


brendan.kenneally@oireachtas.ie
john.deasy@oireachtas.ie
martin.cullen@oireachtas.ie
brian.oshea@oireachtas.ie
eamon.gilmore@oireachtas.ie
enda.kenny@finegael.ie
eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie
Dan.Boyle@oireachtas.ie
john.gormley@oireachtas.ie
taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie
noel.dempsey@oireachtas.ie
brian.crowley@europarl.europa.eu,
alan.kelly@europarl.europa.eu,
sean.kelly@europarl.europa.eu



From what I can gather, the nearest UK base to the South East is Chivenor, and they're also being downgraded to 12 hour so that won't be any use to us at all. We'd be relying on Cornwall.

It cannot be under-estimated the importance of Emailing these departments, TD's and MEP's, I read an article in supplement section in Saturdays Independent where local views on the reduction of services were given a good platform, right minded politicians (if there is such a thing) are starting to see how stupid this decision is, keep pestering them!

Trotter

He said the new contract involves the purchase of new helicopters, which he said will be better, will be 50% faster than the current ones and 'will be able to fly at night and in clouds unlike the current situation'.

He said it will be an improved service.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0322/coastguard.html


Sorry now, but are we all that thick that we'd think the Sikorsky S61 thats currently flying cannot fly at night or in clouds???

goldie fish

Trotter wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0322/coastguard.html


Sorry now, but are we all that thick that we'd think the Sikorsky S61 thats currently flying cannot fly at night or in clouds???

Well for the opposition who think our navy consists of two ships, one of which is a Hospital ship, its a good enough answer.

Dont forget its faster....

Handy when you have to be in two places at once.
:mad:

Trotter

I hear its 50% faster!
Let me guess that the current heli travels at say 120 - 130 mph?

Add 50% so.. 180-200mph?????? Not a hope.


Warp speed.... :rolleyes:

s.a.r100

Trotter wrote: »

I hear its 50% faster!
Let me guess that the current heli travels at say 120 - 130 mph?

Add 50% so.. 180-200mph?????? Not a hope.


Warp speed.... :rolleyes:

service speed in normal conditions about 118knots so 50% on to this ........what a joke

Sterling Archer

I thought the s61 cruises at 90 knots and maxs out at 100 knots, so 50% on this would be 150 knots, and doesn't the s-92 cruise around 150 knots, just wondering...

Anyway if they do get away with this :mad: won't this mean the dub and snn helos will have to attend the calls, and the sligo helo will have to cover them while there covering the waterford helo.... it'll just be a mess and end in tragedy

punchdrunk

Shane_ef wrote: »

I thought the s61 cruises at 90 knots and maxs out at 100 knots, so 50% on this would be 150 knots, and doesn't the s-92 cruise around 150 knots, just wondering...

Anyway if they do get away with this :mad: won't this mean the dub and snn helos will have to attend the calls, and the sligo helo will have to cover them while there covering the waterford helo.... it'll just be a mess and end in tragedy

according to wiki cruise speed is 120kn

also we could have just upgraded the S-61's using Carson composite blades,would have saved some money

http://www.carsonhelicopters.com/specifications.htm

spec

* A 2,000 lb. increase in lift
* 15 Knots faster at reduced power settings
* Twice the service life (10,000 hours to 20,000 hours) with reduced maintenance and operating costs
* A 15% increase in range, from 400 to 460 Nautical Miles
* Certified by the F.A.A.
* Manufactured by DuCommun AeroStructures, Inc, a company that produces blades for the U.S. Army Apache Helicopter and Bell Helicopters.

it's interesting to note that the US state department has just green lighted the upgrade of approx 110 S-61's for service in afghanistan

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/us-state-department-to-purchase-sikorsky-s-61ttm-helicopters-for-use-in-afghanistan-84912897.html

Sterling Archer

Ah i stand corrected, either way the'll probably just look for s-92:D

Leo Demidov

Government Backdown?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65163993#post65163993

alexlyons

wexfjord wrote: »

Government Backdown?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65163993#post65163993

Got an email from John Deasy saying the reverted the decision.

999/112

.......... and the Waterford helicopter did this job today. http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0330/wexford.html Well done to all units involved!:)

Trotter

Well done to anyone who lobbied, emailed, phoned, pressurised etc. the politicians on this one. It was a shocking idea, backed by false claims and justifications.

Thankfully our S61 and S92 thereafter will both be seen flying at night, and in clouds, doing what they do best.