Understanding the dogmatic religious mind and the God gene.

Xluna

I can't. I really have tried but I just can't. I can relate to Christians ect who border on deism but I can't understand the strict adherence to dogma. E.G. a thread on one of the religious boards here as to whether it's o.k. for a Catholic to get a tatoo. I mean, I can understand religious people looking for biblical backing on thorny social issues but for something as mundane as whether it's o.k. to get a tatoo. That's just an example but I can't understand why they refuse to think for themselves on even minor issues. This one of the things that put me off religion as a child.

Is there really such a thing as the "God" gene and people who lack it are impervious to religious indoctrination and conversion? There have been times when I really did need religious comfort and would have loved to have had faith but I just seem to lack the faculties for it. (So much for "athiests reject faith so they can be immoral".)

PDN

To be honest, reading comments by atheists, I see as much indoctrination and dogmatism as I do among religious folfks.

Some people are interested in discussing whether tattoos are OK or not. While I see no problem with tattoos (other than the fact that most of them are crap and tasteless) I think people are entitled to discuss the issue.

No, I don't think there's a 'God gene' at all. I think people have lots of different opinions on stuff - and that shouldn't worry any of us unless people are engaging in something hateful or harmful to others.

Zillah

I'm the very opposite. The crazy ones are the ones I understand. God says homosexuals are an abomination? Well then screw those fags. Almighty creator of the universe says abortion is murder? Then we best throw those doctors in prison.

It's the ones who say they are a Christian and claim to believe in God, while ignoring most of what their own holy book says about this God...that's what I can't get my head around. At least the fundamentalists are internally consistent.

PDN wrote: »

No, I don't think there's a 'God gene' at all.

There's a God-centre of the brain. Stimulate it with an electric current and people report a potent sensation of the presence of God. The anatomy of the brain, like the rest of the human body, is determined by genetics. So while there is no "God-gene" per se, there very well could be some individuals genetically inclined towards supernatural thinking.

Zombrex

Xluna wrote: »

I can't. I really have tried but I just can't. I can relate to Christians ect who border on deism but I can't understand the strict adherence to dogma. E.G. a thread on one of the religious boards here as to whether it's o.k. for a Catholic to get a tatoo. I mean, I can understand religious people looking for biblical backing on thorny social issues but for something as mundane as whether it's o.k. to get a tatoo. That's just an example but I can't understand why they refuse to think for themselves on even minor issues. This one of the things that put me off religion as a child.

Is there really such a thing as the "God" gene and people who lack it are impervious to religious indoctrination and conversion? There have been times when I really did need religious comfort and would have loved to have had faith but I just seem to lack the faculties for it. (So much for "athiests reject faith so they can be immoral".)

While calling it "the God gene" is rather inaccurate, yes there is an evolved genetic tendency for humans to imagine human like agents, often with power to help us (ie gods) in nature.

We know from studies that people in times of stress and feelings of loss of control over their lives are much more prone to imagining that these agents exist. You can actually trigger this in humans and watch as they scramble to find supernatural explanations that involve god like agents.

This to me would not only explain religion, but also explain why so many people accept religion when they are experiencing really bad things.

The explanation for why we do this seems to be a defense mechanism. Processing a random and chaotic world, particularly at times when we are trying to protect ourselves, over loads the brain and produces stress.

The brain sort of snaps, gives up trying to process the world in terms of random natural events and falls back to sorting and organizing the world in terms we have evolved to understand better, which is human to human interaction. We view nature itself as a human in order to make sense in human terms of what is happening to us because so much of our brain is devoted to processing information in terms of human interaction.

You can actually see this quite a lot in how people, particularly theists, often discuss concepts like random universe, a purposeless universe, a chaotic universe, in terms of physics but also concepts like ethics.

I've had many a discussion with theists where they claim that a random purposeless universe simply does not compute for them, they can't believe that reality would be like that. Which is why they are theists I guess.

When presented with all this of course the response is the some what predictable, Yes I agree this is what happens with some people in other religions, but that doesn't prove this is what is happening with me Which is some what of a conversation killer. With the concept of a supernatural deity it is of course impossible to demonstrate that this isn't what is happening with them. Their bias and need to believe what they believe can always construct walls between what the scientific research is telling them and what they need the universe to be like.

BTW this topic probably is better suited to one of the science forums or the A&A forum

mardybumbum

Xluna wrote: »

Is there really such a thing as the "God" gene and people who lack it are impervious to religious indoctrination and conversion?

I doubt it very much. You read a lot of claims in the tabloids that scientist have discoverd the "gay gene", "god gene", etc.
In reality it is both genetics ( a number of genes, not one single gene ) and environment which are responsible for most traits.

As zillah pointed out, there is a region in the temporal lobe which when stimulated evokes a feeling of a "supernatural presence", and many people who suffer from temporal lobe epilepsies report religious visions.

Maybe it is our temporal lobe where God is located, not heaven. :cool:

Xluna

Thanks for the responses....eeek! I actually meant to post this in the A&A forum,don't ask,but I'm fine with it being here if the mods want to leave it here. I don't know whether there's a God gene or not but I notice some people can have at least a moderate amount of faith fairly easy,others like myself can't seem to accept religious comfort even when we desire it. So I would'nt rule out some biological reasons as an explanation why some are more prone to religion than others.

philologos

Xluna wrote: »

Thanks for the responses....eeek! I actually meant to post this in the A&A forum,don't ask,but I'm fine with it being here if the mods want to leave it here. I don't know whether there's a God gene or not but I notice some people can have at least a moderate amount of faith fairly easy,others like myself can't seem to accept religious comfort even when we desire it. So I would'nt rule out some biological reasons as an explanation why some are more prone to religion than others.

Whether or not God exists, is a question of objective truth, rather than a question of subjective comfort. At least that is what I would have thought.

Perhaps, people can have faith, because people find it reasonable to do so given what experience they have had, and what they know about the way things are.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Whether or not God exists, is a question of objective truth, rather than a question of subjective comfort.

True but the reasons given for belief in God are more often than not based on comfort.

For example, the argument that the universe only makes sense if you imagine God. That is an argument from comfort, the idea that the universe making sense to us is some how important.

Or the argument that you feel better, or more loved, when you believe in God. Again that is using the idea that God comforts in a feedback loop, you believe in God, you feel comforted, God comforts, therefore it is God comforting you.

There are few non-comfort arguments for the existence of God or god(s)

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

For example, the argument that the universe only makes sense if you imagine God. That is an argument from comfort, the idea that the universe making sense to us is some how important.

No it isn't. It's an argument that the idea of a universe without God is unlikely, and that it doesn't make clear sense. If something doesn't make clear sense, it's hardly likely that you will regard it as objective truth.

That isn't an argument from comfort at all.

What I find is that comfort can influence decisions on the other side of this argument. Christianity, and belief in God demands a lot from its adherents, on the basis of this, and an unwillingness to consider changing ones lifestyle in order to better adhere to God's will people are more likely to consider atheism out of comfort. Infact the more and more I have become involved in Christianity, the more and more I find that God is seeking of me. I found that changing the way I lived, and acted was very difficult, infact it would have been much easier for me not to have accepted Christianity. However, in light of what I had come to see as objective truth, being honest to it was important.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

No it isn't. It's an argument that the idea of a universe without God is unlikely, and that it doesn't make clear sense. If something doesn't make clear sense, it's hardly likely that you will regard it as objective truth.

Why not? Have you ever looked at quantum physics?

Again this is an argument from comfort, the idea that something is more likely if it makes sense to us. We think this way because we prefer if things make sense, we find things that don't make sense confusing and difficult to process. We don't like viewing the world in this way. It produces stress in the brain, often triggering supernatural view points.

You can see this in something as simple as a common diagram of an atom.



That is not what an atom looks like. We present these abstractions to people, particularly children, because what an atom actually looks like is very confusing and difficult to understand.

This actually causes measurable stress in individuals, when you ask them to try and process the world around them in terms they don't easy understand. It is easy to see (and supported by research) why people turn to explanations that provide answers in a format that is far easier for the human brain to process.

Jakkass wrote: »

What I find is that comfort can influence decisions on the other side of this argument. Christianity, and belief in God demands a lot from its adherents, on the basis of this, and an unwillingness to consider changing ones lifestyle in order to better adhere to God's will people are more likely to consider atheism out of comfort.

Possibly, but the evidence seems to suggests otherwise. Religions people tend to be happier and suffer less from depression and stress than atheists.

Jakkass wrote: »

I found that changing the way I lived, and acted was very difficult, infact it would have been much easier for me not to have accepted Christianity. However, in light of what I had come to see as objective truth, being honest to it was important.

You seem to be talking about material comforts, which isn't really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the mental comfort that comes from viewing the world a particular way.

On the point of material comfort though there seems to be very little evidence that having increasing material "comforts" makes people happier or provides actual comfort. And in fact some studies, particularly into things like depression in those who live hedonistic life styles such as movie starts, strongly suggests it doesn't.

This shouldn't be something that is difficult for you guys to accept, don't you yourselves say that one of the best ways to show people Christianity is to introduce them to Christians and see how Christians live.

Things that Christianity places emphasis on, love, friendship, respect, altruism, seem to be the things that actually provide mental comfort to people. And that is why seeing Christians in "action" as it where makes other people want to be Christians.

If Christianity was telling you to give these things up you might have a point, but the idea that you are discomforting yourself by denying material things by following Christianity seems some what unsupported.

Contrast this possible discomfort with the great mental comfort we know religious outlook brings to people, it is rather difficult to see atheism as a path people choose for the comfort of it.

philologos

Wicknight wrote: »

Why not? Have you ever looked at quantum physics?

Not in depth.

Wicknight wrote: »

Again this is an argument from comfort, the idea that something is more likely if it makes sense to us. We think this way because we prefer if things make sense, we find things that don't make sense confusing and difficult to process. We don't like viewing the world in this way. It produces stress in the brain, often triggering supernatural view points.

It's an argument from reason, and an argument based in philosophy. The distinction between contingent and necessary being makes reasonable sense as to why the universe is the way it is and why God has a place in it. There is nothing comfortable about that conclusion, rather it is a recognition of things as they seem to be.

Wicknight wrote: »

Possibly, but the evidence seems to suggests otherwise. Religions people tend to be happier and suffer less from depression and stress than atheists.

The evidence? - You're dealing with something entirely different. We are dealing with rejecting or accepting something based on comfort. The mental health situation is secondary as to why I or most other believers believe in God.

Wicknight wrote: »

You seem to be talking about material comforts, which isn't really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the mental comfort that comes from viewing the world a particular way.

I'm talking about lifestyle changes and how people are more comfortable continuing in their current lifestyle rather than considering that a change in them might actually be more consistent with the truth.

Wicknight wrote: »

This shouldn't be something that is difficult for you guys to accept, don't you yourselves say that one of the best ways to show people Christianity is to introduce them to Christians and see how Christians live.

I think so, only because Christians and the way that a lot of Christians live shows that the truth of Christianity is genuine, it's not something just to be argued over the internet. Engaging with people from one to another is always much better because it helps remove the barrier that people have put up in their thought.

Wicknight wrote: »

Things that Christianity places emphasis on, love, friendship, respect, altruism, seem to be the things that actually provide mental comfort to people. And that is why seeing Christians in "action" as it where makes other people want to be Christians.

These things have more to do with God's standard and that God knows what is truly best for us. Whether mental comfort comes secondary to the primary account of God's truth is another thing entirely.

Wicknight wrote: »

If Christianity was telling you to give these things up you might have a point, but the idea that you are discomforting yourself by denying material things by following Christianity seems some what unsupported.

It was more that when I was examining how I lived, and how I acted towards other people, I realised that I didn't fit the expectations that God had for me from the very beginning. By living apart from Him, I had failed Him, and I needed to make things right with Him. I.E I had to accept that I was wrong, and I had to accept the reality of God's authority and existence.

Wicknight wrote: »

Contrast this possible discomfort with the great mental comfort we know religious outlook brings to people, it is rather difficult to see atheism as a path people choose for the comfort of it.

You're right that it probably exists, but for me and for others it is a secondary result of the primary conclusion of the objective reality of God's existence. Comfort isn't involved in deciding whether or not God exists.

I personally don't base things on comfort because I know that Christian living is very difficult at times, and is difficult for a lot of people in persecuted countries. Jesus said that Christians would undergo hardships, and that not all would be rosy. At least not until Jesus Himself returns and executes righteous judgement and restores the universe to it's former glory.

Splendour

Xluna wrote: »

I can't. I really have tried but I just can't. I can relate to Christians ect who border on deism but I can't understand the strict adherence to dogma. E.G. a thread on one of the religious boards here as to whether it's o.k. for a Catholic to get a tatoo. I mean, I can understand religious people looking for biblical backing on thorny social issues but for something as mundane as whether it's o.k. to get a tatoo. That's just an example but I can't understand why they refuse to think for themselves on even minor issues. This one of the things that put me off religion as a child.

I can't understand Christians who do that either 'cos I 'don't sweat the small stuff'-( I've far bigger fish to fry than praying about stuff like tattoos...)
However, although I may not pray about the decision of getting a tattoo (or the like) does not mean that prayer in this area is not important to another person.
I take it you were brought up in a rigid religious household to put you off Christianity..?

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

It's an argument from reason, and an argument based in philosophy.

No its not because there is no reason why the universe should make sense to us.

Jakkass wrote: »

There is nothing comfortable about that conclusion, rather it is a recognition of things as they seem to be.

Again there is no reason why the universe would be as we perceive it to be (again see quantum theory or if you want to get really weirded out, string theory)

But of course it is a lot less stressful on the brain if the universe is how it seems to us to be.

It is easy to see why we would be drawn, mentally, to view points that suggest this is the case. Believe in God is just a part of this.

Jakkass wrote: »

The evidence? - You're dealing with something entirely different. We are dealing with rejecting or accepting something based on comfort. The mental health situation is secondary as to why I or most other believers believe in God.

I'm not saying you consciously choose an view point because of its comfort.

You choose it because it is the path of least mental stress. Given the choice between something that is confusing and nonsensical and something that is clear and understandable people naturally choose the later.

Interestingly enough people tend to do this irrespective of whether or not they can determine which is true.

This goes back to the issue of there being no scientific verification for supernatural beliefs, and more specifically why religious people don't seem to care that much.

It makes sense to them, and that is the important bit.

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm talking about lifestyle changes and how people are more comfortable continuing in their current lifestyle rather than considering that a change in them might actually be more consistent with the truth.

Again that does not seem to be the case for most. People often talk about finding God or religion at their lowest ebb. It seems some what contradictory that they would view it as being more comfortable continuing on as they where.

This is supported by what we know about how the brain attempts to compensate for stress caused by confusion and feelings of being out of control. The brain introduces supernatural elements to bring the world around us back into a manageable state.

People find that embracing supernatural beliefs such as religion when they are at their lowest ebb bring strong feelings of peace and clarity to them.

This is not just the case with Christianity, most religious beliefs produce this effect.

Jakkass wrote: »

These things have more to do with God's standard and that God knows what is truly best for us. Whether mental comfort comes secondary to the primary account of God's truth is another thing entirely.

They also just happen to be in line with how we have evolved to behave.

Again this idea that Christianity is a great mental discomfort to people seems unsupported. Most religions share similar moral structures that are in line with our evolved behaviour. Our religions end up reflecting how we expect ourselves to behave morally.

Jakkass wrote: »

It was more that when I was examining how I lived, and how I acted towards other people, I realised that I didn't fit the expectations that God had for me from the very beginning. By living apart from Him, I had failed Him, and I needed to make things right with Him. I.E I had to accept that I was wrong, and I had to accept the reality of God's authority and existence.

And did you feel better afterwards? Or did you feel worse?

Jakkass wrote: »

You're right that it probably exists, but for me and for others it is a secondary result of the primary conclusion of the objective reality of God's existence. Comfort isn't involved in deciding whether or not God exists.

Again I'm not suggesting that religious people consciously follow religion because it provides material comfort.

It puts them at ease with the universe. It makes sense to them. It feels right. They use that to then justify that it is right. It becomes a sort of feed back loop.

mardybumbum

Wicknight wrote: »

The brain sort of snaps, gives up trying to process the world in terms of random natural events and falls back to sorting and organizing the world in terms we have evolved to understand better, which is human to human interaction. We view nature itself as a human in order to make sense in human terms of what is happening to us because so much of our brain is devoted to processing information in terms of human interaction.

When I read that, I thought of this.
An example of the brain "giving up".