Northern Hemisphere V Southern Hemisphere.

esio trot

I was looking at some of the posts on the BBC forums and someone brought up the point of Super 14 being superior to NH rugby. I would just like to say I disagree strongly. While the Super 14 might be a far superior spectacle to watch, it is evident to any rugby fan that defence obviously means nothing and while I am no conspiracy theorist the constant law changes which favour the SH style of play are ruining the game. This is union not league. We value strong defences, rolling mauls and hard hitting tackles and while our game may be flawed at least we can take solice in the fact that it has not become a lwless free for all in the attempt to boost tv ratings.

corny

esio trot wrote: »

I was looking at some of the posts on the BBC forums and someone brought up the point of Super 14 being superior to NH rugby. I would just like to say I disagree strongly. While the Super 14 might be a far superior spectacle to watch, it is evident to any rugby fan that defence obviously means nothing and while I am no conspiracy theorist the constant law changes which favour the SH style of play are ruining the game. This is union not league. We value strong defences, rolling mauls and hard hitting tackles and while our game may be flawed at least we can take solice in the fact that it has not become a lwless free for all in the attempt to boost tv ratings.

You say the S14 is a far superior spectacle and in the next breath you say they're ruining the game

I actually agree with the new interpretation. It gives the attacking team back the advantage while not completely ruling out a turnover. Teams should slowly become more confident removing the need for the aerial ping pong too. Not a big supporter of the direction the IRB has taken the last while but this new interpretation isn't a bad thing IMO.

CatFromHue

i just like watching games where teams know how to and carry out proper tackles, where to score a try is hard and means something!
i used to like the super 14 but this year i dunno. i might tune in at the playoffs

esio trot

corny wrote: »

You say the S14 is a far superior spectacle and in the next breath you say they're ruining the game

What I meant to say was, while there is no doubt that super 14 is more entertaining to watch it is far removed from the game of union and more akin to league and this imo is ruining the game as it is losing its identity.

CatFromHue

is super 14 more entertaining though? or has it a chip on its shoulder!

yeah the players celebrate each try but if the defense doesnt tackle are they worth celebrating!

tomas waldorn (could also be tony) saying last week that he was coming north basically to get citizenship to play for england.

sure he'll walk into the team

i have to say ive been to a few super 14 games and frankly gimme the nz cup instead!

esio trot

esio trot wrote: »

I was looking at some of the posts on the BBC forums and someone brought up the point of Super 14 being superior to NH rugby. I would just like to say I disagree strongly. While the Super 14 might be a far superior spectacle to watch, it is evident to any rugby fan that defence obviously means nothing and while I am no conspiracy theorist the constant law changes which favour the SH style of play are ruining the game. This is union not league. We value strong defences, rolling mauls and hard hitting tackles and while our game may be flawed at least we can take solice in the fact that it has not become a lwless free for all in the attempt to boost tv ratings.

How?
Their teams ocupy the top 3 rankings in the world continuously and regualrily dominate the NH.
The rugby is more entertaining,the skills better and the players better.

Go and look up the last time NZ conceeded a try to one of the home nations,I think its about 3 years ago at this stage.

Also im pretty sure I saw South Africa mauling the Lions about 40 metres last summer.

You have to realise that the super 14 has bad teams as well as the SH.
For example everyone talkes about the lions v chiefs game that had a huge result.If you applied the same rules here and Leinster played Connacht the result would be the same.
The Chiefs decided to stop defending but that does not mean the laws are flawed.

CatFromHue wrote: »

is super 14 more entertaining though? or has it a chip on its shoulder!
yeah the players celebrate each try but if the defense doesnt tackle are they worth celebrating!
tomas waldorn (could also be tony) saying last week that he was coming north basically to get citizenship to play for england.
sure he'll walk into the team
i have to say ive been to a few super 14 games and frankly gimme the nz cup instead!

Firstly its Thomas Waldrom.
Secondly how many trys have NZ conceeded in the NH in the last 5 years?
This defence crap is becoming boring,go look up the bulls scorelines and see how many trys they have cenceeded this season.

CatFromHue

tomas waldrom thats it, he is a good number 8 but to go on tv and say he wants to play for england is mad

the all blacks are a completely different animal to a super 14 team as well

paddy wallace scored irelands last try against the all blacks in 2008 in windy welly

i prefer the air nz cup to the super 14, cant see me watching it again til maybe the semis

CatFromHue

CatFromHue wrote: »

tomas waldrom thats it, he is a good number 8 but to go on tv and say he wants to play for england is mad

the all blacks are a completely different animal to a super 14 team as well

paddy wallace scored irelands last try against the all blacks in 2008 in windy welly

i prefer the air nz cup to the super 14, cant see me watching it again til maybe the semis

I didnt see the interview so cant comment.

My point is more that the teams defences are being ridiculed but at the end of the day the benchmark is the international teams that they provide the players for and that is the highest level.
At the highest level the NH teams come up short esp in defence,the ****ers havent even conceded a try in the last 3 tours to the home nations I think.
Looking at that,we have more stuff to be concerned abou then their defences.

Podge_irl

The SH teams are obviously usually superior. They have handling skills and a killer instinct lacking in many/most/all NH teams.

The S14 contains many of the world's best players, but it is a vastly inferior competition for whatever reason. Amazing skill levels yes, but teams should not be scoring 70 points with regularity. I have absolutely no interesting in watching that.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

The SH teams are obviously usually superior. They have handling skills and a killer instinct lacking in many/most/all NH teams.

The S14 contains many of the world's best players, but it is a vastly inferior competition for whatever reason. Amazing skill levels yes, but teams should not be scoring 70 points with regularity. I have absolutely no interesting in watching that.

Its the laws,you CANNOT hold onto the ball.

Its such a better game then the dross we play here its not even funny.

Risteard

Interesting take on the new interpretations from Ma'a Nonu:

Ma'a Nonu has slammed the changes to the law interpretations, branding the game now as being "boring".

Sanzar officials have altered the way the game is refereed at the breakdown this season and there has been plenty of talk among the public, media and rugby bosses that this has made the game more entertaining.

But the 46-test All Black told a newspaper in South Africa this week that the opposite is true, believing referees are coming down harder on the big hits players such as him put in.

"Rugby isn't as popular as it used to be in New Zealand because of the new rules, which are a bit harsh on teams," Nonu told a newspaper in Cape Town.

Link

Bugnug

Where's Justind? He's going to love this!:D

twinytwo

Giovanni Jolly Overlap wrote: »

How?
Their teams ocupy the top 3 rankings in the world continuously and regualrily dominate the NH.

Not really take a look at the autumn tests for example and looking to the last time we played the abs in CP they got away with murder as the they always do or against italy so it easy to say oh a try hasnt been scored against them

The rugby is more entertaining,the skills better and the players better.

More entertaining..i dont think so both the NH and SH has its share of good and bad game.

Better skills.. again i dont think so sure the abs seem better at off loading in the tackle but so are the french. Also the lions showed clearly where all the skill lies.

Better players.. doubt it you have quality players in the NH and SH there are tons of players playing in the SH that wouldnt get near the munster or leinster team

Go and look up the last time NZ conceeded a try to one of the home nations,I think its about 3 years ago at this stage.

again reference italy game they get away with murder because the are the all blacks

Also im pretty sure I saw South Africa mauling the Lions about 40 metres last summer.

a very good maul that was but as we know if a maul is do correctly it is nearly impossible to stop legally. But the SA's did what they do best which is kick the ball away and chase it which failed epically in croke park

bleg

corny wrote: »

You say the S14 is a far superior spectacle and in the next breath you say they're ruining the game

I actually agree with the new interpretation. It gives the attacking team back the advantage while not completely ruling out a turnover. Teams should slowly become more confident removing the need for the aerial ping pong too. Not a big supporter of the direction the IRB has taken the last while but this new interpretation isn't a bad thing IMO.

Promotes defenders hunting in packs too.

Although even with the new interpretation, Wallace was 100% Ok yesterday

LeeroyJones

personally as a rugby fan i would prefer to watch a 16-12 match with strong defences rather than a 65-48 where the teams are just running back and forth from their trylines.

However if rugby wants to attract more viewers, the average joe who doesnt know much about the sport would probably prefer to watch the 65-48 match!

JustinDee

esio trot wrote: »

I was looking at some of the posts on the BBC forums and someone brought up the point of Super 14 being superior to NH rugby. I would just like to say I disagree strongly. While the Super 14 might be a far superior spectacle to watch, it is evident to any rugby fan that defence obviously means nothing and while I am no conspiracy theorist the constant law changes which favour the SH style of play are ruining the game. This is union not league. We value strong defences, rolling mauls and hard hitting tackles and while our game may be flawed at least we can take solice in the fact that it has not become a lwless free for all in the attempt to boost tv ratings.

You're turning this into an imaginary hemisphere v hemisphere niggle and a union v league jest-up.
There is no 'we' when it comes to the hemispheres. There is no country who play for anyone else but themselves.

The game in S14 is NOT akin to rugby league. There are competitive scrums, lineouts, mauls and plenty of the facets of play you allude to being exclusive to the 'NH'.
Teams from the SANZAR nations have always played a different game to those of the Six Nations. Especially at this time of year when summer is only starting to drop off. The conditions make for running rugby, in much the same way as the difference in tactics later in the season for the ERC or ML teams.
What is needed is consistency and where there has been a change in laws or interpretations of those laws, time is needed for participants to adjust. This adjustment is what you are witnessing now in the S14.
Law changes or variations if being applied should be applied across the board, in my humble opinion. Can't have international teams playing different law sets.

I understand people here do love what I consider tribalistic tosh by taking 'their' hemisphere's side but believe me, the imaginary line in question is just that.

Ciaran-Irl

I've watched more super 14 so far this year than any other year - on the back of having a plus box, so I can record games and watch them later. I have been seriously disappointed. There isn't any evidence of the superior quality that the national equivalents down south have over the northern nations.

Yes, I know the southern hemisphere national teams are better. Super 14 isn't though. The Bulls have clocked up 199 games in 4 games or something stupid, but you couldn't possibly suggest that this was down to anything but rubbish defending.

I have watched games this year with teams like "The Cornish Pirates" playing, and the defense was superior. Remarkable.

Frankly, I don't see how the players can play the way they do and then step up to such a high level for tests. How Goode matched Giteau in the Sharks vs Brumbies at the weekend, I'll never know. Goode is an appallingly bad player, and Giteau is a prodigy.

It isn't just down to the laws interpretation either incidentally.

buck65

I know very little about the Super 14 first off. I watch alot of Magners League, French Top 14 and Heineken Cup.
Of all the tournaments , including the 6 nations , the one I prefer and feel the best rugby being played is in the Heineken Cup. Of course alot of this is down to the SH players coming North and integrating into the cultures of teams like Munster, Leinster, Leicester Toulouse and the rest. They bring their bag of tricks and mix it up with the ingredients that have made all these teams succesful and you get an amazing combination.
I have watched Super 14 and always felt that the atmosphere and passion in European club rugby is miles ahead true the skill levels may not be as good but with all this cross polination surely it is a matter of time?

anonymous_joe

buck65 wrote: »

I know very little about the Super 14 first off. I watch alot of Magners League, French Top 14 and Heineken Cup.
Of all the tournaments , including the 6 nations , the one I prefer and feel the best rugby being played is in the Heineken Cup. Of course alot of this is down to the SH players coming North and integrating into the cultures of teams like Munster, Leinster, Leicester Toulouse and the rest. They bring their bag of tricks and mix it up with the ingredients that have made all these teams succesful and you get an amazing combination.
I have watched Super 14 and always felt that the atmosphere and passion in European club rugby is miles ahead true the skill levels may not be as good but with all this cross polination surely it is a matter of time?

Super 14's pretty much an exhibition tournament. It does mean a bit more to the Saffers and New Zealanders in that some of their regional sides do compete, but the Aussie's don't really have an equivalent to the Currie Cup or that Provinces thingymadoodley.

For anyone who didnt see it,the sharks and the brumbies match did not have a ridiculously high score and the defences were both good.
21/23 I think.
The refs are starting to go back the other way a bit,there seemed to be more of a contest,still good quick ball though.

Tim Robbins

esio trot wrote: »

We value strong defences, rolling mauls and hard hitting tackles and while our game may be flawed at least we can take solice in the fact that it has not become a lwless free for all in the attempt to boost tv ratings.

You are not going to find too many league fans telling you they don't value defense.

2040

Giovanni Jolly Overlap wrote: »

For anyone who didnt see it,the sharks and the brumbies match did not have a ridiculously high score and the defences were both good.
21/23 I think.
The refs are starting to go back the other way a bit,there seemed to be more of a contest,still good quick ball though.

I missed it. How did Andy Goode play? I'm actually interested in his progress for some reason.

2040

2040 wrote: »

I missed it. How did Andy Goode play? I'm actually interested in his progress for some reason.

He outshone matt giteau who was terrible.

He played exactly as you would imagine,he was class with the boot,nailing every kick I think and other than that he basically just kicked the leather off the ball.

He isnt very creative and I wonder why they didnt just buy a scrum half and play ruan pienaar at 10.

toomevara

esio trot wrote: »

This is union not league. We value strong defences..... hard hitting tackles

How'd I miss this? Modern rugby union defences are lifted straight from League. Ireland's defence coach is a league man, and Ireland's backline basically employ a classic RL sliding defence. Wales'/Lions Shaun Edwards is a league man. And while I'm on the subject how about the attacking plays cribbed straight from the 13 man code. Mind you only one or two union teams have the skill to do them any justice, and if there's one thing not associated with rugby league its 'hard hitting tackles'????? Dear God, yet another post on rugby League form someone who clearly never watches the game...

And as for a 'lawless free for all':

http://www.therfl.co.uk/clientdocs/rugby_laws_book_2007_%20(2).pdf

There are some 18 sections covering 51+ pages...hardly 'lawless' now is it...

Hippo

Super 14 high scoring is greatly assisted by the incredibly relaxed approach by the officials to forward passes, knock-ons etc. I can recognise the skills levels no problem, but really it doesn't look like a tournament you can take too seriously.

esio trot

esio trot wrote: »

I was looking at some of the posts on the BBC forums and someone brought up the point of Super 14 being superior to NH rugby. I would just like to say I disagree strongly. While the Super 14 might be a far superior spectacle to watch, it is evident to any rugby fan that defence obviously means nothing and while I am no conspiracy theorist the constant law changes which favour the SH style of play are ruining the game. This is union not league. We value strong defences, rolling mauls and hard hitting tackles and while our game may be flawed at least we can take solice in the fact that it has not become a lwless free for all in the attempt to boost tv ratings.

I suggest you watch the next state or origin match and truly appreciate the sport and the skills the players have.

You often hear commentators say,the defences are so much better than they used to be,so the players get less space.Well there is your reason.