legal situation re:baptism

pinc

Here is the scenario:
Parents not married,father has guardianship.
Father wants child baptised,Mother doesn't
As any disagreements between the guardians re: the childs welfare can be ultimately settled by the courts as a last resort ,how would this scenario likely pan out?

Victor

Judges tells the parents that he's not getting involved and to settle it between them. That sounds a bit glib, but I honestly can't see the court making an order in either direction.

Grawns

I wonder can the church baptize a child without both parents consent anyway.

MrPudding

They aren't supposed to. Assuming both names are on the birth cert they will require consent from both parties. There is also the "classes" some churches insist the parents go to.

That said, if on of the parents goes to a priest and explains the other is a godless heathen and they fear for their childs eternal soul, who knows what might happen.

MrP

Grawns

Could be an interesting legal situation for the priest.

Grawns

If you are the mother I suggest you post in atheists and agnostics forum. Has probably come up there before.

pinc

Grawns said" If you are the mother I suggest you post in atheists and agnostics forum. Has probably come up there before. "

Yeah I might do that. The father did try to get the priest to do it but he refused to do it without me so it's a moot point really.
I am also curious as to the legalities if the baptism took place without my knowledge.Strange mix-church and state.

EC1000

pinc wrote: »

I am also curious as to the legalities if the baptism took place without my knowledge.Strange mix-church and state.

Baptism is not like marriage in terms of legal recognition. Baptism has no legal consequences afaik

Jo King

A priest is not required for a baptism. Anyone can do it. The child can be baptised a a catholic by any practicing catholic. Nothing the other parent can do about it. I know of a grandmother who baptised a child because she thought the parents were a bit slow in getting around to it.

Grawns

I take it the granny couldn't write out a baptismal cert though

pinc

yeah, my Mother throws water on him on a regular basis-I have no problem with that-I just don't want him to be registered as a catholic,as in having a baptismal cert.

Jo King

ìf the child is baptised a catholic what difference does a piece of paper make?

Our man in Havana

Well the local school will want said piece of paper to enroll the child.

Maximilian

Just run the tap over the child's head for a bit. Same thing.

jhegarty

pinc wrote: »

.Strange mix-church and state.

There is no mix of Church and State here, that's why a Judge won't get involved.

tomcollins97

pinc wrote: »

yeah, my Mother throws water on him on a regular basis-I have no problem with that-I just don't want him to be registered as a catholic,as in having a baptismal cert.

I don't get this - if you don't believe in it surely it doesn't matter is the child is baptised or not? If not, you get what you want, if it happens all that has occured is a strange man in a dress has poured water over your childs head

Our man in Havana

Try enrolling a child in a school without a baptismal cert. You will have major problems.

OS119

tomcollins97 wrote: »

I don't get this - if you don't believe in it surely it doesn't matter is the child is baptised or not? If not, you get what you want, if it happens all that has occured is a strange man in a dress has poured water over your childs head

if the OP has an issue with the Church, rather than religon per se , then it matters a great deal.

two people can walk into an empty church, make marriage vows and even make love on the alter, but that doesn't mean diddly-squat in real life - it has no legal standing. if however the child is officially baptized, rather than poured water over by her mum, the child becomes a political tool of the IRC church - the church is able to use the statistics of its 'membership' (and being baptised counts as membership) as a weapon in its role as a political pressure group.

hence the OP could find her childs baptism (as part of its membership, and therefore the number of people it's 'representative' of) being used by the IRCC to advance/defend laws and public policies that she opposes outright.

thats what makes it important.

pinc

OP here
Thanks OS119." the OP has an issue with the Church, rather than religon per se , then it matters a great deal.

two people can walk into an empty church, make marriage vows and even make love on the alter, but that doesn't mean diddly-squat in real life - it has no legal standing. if however the child is officially baptized, rather than poured water over by her mum, the child becomes a political tool of the IRC church - the church is able to use the statistics of its 'membership' (and being baptised counts as membership) as a weapon in its role as a political pressure group.

hence the OP could find her childs baptism (as part of its membership, and therefore the number of people it's 'representative' of) being used by the IRCC to advance/defend laws and public policies that she opposes outright.
thats what makes it important."

That's it in a nutshell.
Re: the school issue-it's not an issue.He's enrolled in a local school.
None of the schools at which I enquired gave a monkeys about the birth cert.

Grawns

I guess if the father went behind your back and got him baptized you could contact the church - and do a count my child out thing. That's based ( without any proof) on two parents being required to consent. Really this is the wrong forum for this.

The_Minister

Bond-007 wrote: »

Well the local school will want said piece of paper to enroll the child.

Bond-007 wrote: »

Try enrolling a child in a school without a baptismal cert. You will have major problems.

I thought that unless there was a lack of space, in which case Catholic children are favoured, there wasn't really a problem in that regard.

Grawns

For catholic schools anyway my understanding is that first priority is given to catholic children in the district, 2nd priority to catholic children outside the district and the remaining places to religous minorities and non- affiliated. So you could live across the road and your taxes can pay for the upkeep, maintanance and salaries of the school but without a baptismal cert your child is not entitled to a place.

Cunsiderthis

Jo King wrote: »

A priest is not required for a baptism. Anyone can do it. The child can be baptised a a catholic by any practicing catholic. Nothing the other parent can do about it. I know of a grandmother who baptised a child because she thought the parents were a bit slow in getting around to it.

Not true. A child is baptised into the Christian church, and on confirmation decides to become a catholic or Methodist or Church of Ireland etc.

Bond-007 wrote: »

Well the local school will want said piece of paper to enroll the child.

That’s the disgrace of the irish situation, that the schools, funded by all of us, are open to discriminate against children who have not been baptised in churches also run by the owners of the school. What a disgrace.

The_Minister wrote: »

I thought that unless there was a lack of space, in which case Catholic children are favoured, there wasn't really a problem in that regard.

Most schools have a written admission policy stating on what basis they accept children. There are also non denominational schools if one is lucky enough to be near one and can get a child admitted.

The father has guardianship, so it seems to me that its probably legally his decision whether or not the child should be baptised. If they have joint guardianship, then it appears it would be their joint decision.

If the mother has objections to the child getting baptised in an RC church, then they could have it done in a non RC church, and then the child would be eligible to be higher up the list, according to the admissions criteria, of that church’s school assuming there is one.

If the father has been granted guardianship either by a court of by agreement, surely that means he is responsible for making those sort of decisions.

pinc

O P here again.
To clarify,the child is happily attending a local school... with no baptismal cert.
The original question is hypothetical really, and asked out of what is purely curiousity about the legal aspect of this.

What are the legal implications for the father ,and the priest involved if they baptised the child without the mothers consent, knowing she would object??
Given that the law states that any disagreement between the guardians re: the regilious/educational/medical etc,welfare of the child can be decided by the courts??
Mother and father have joint guardianship.

Jo King

Cunsiderthis wrote: »

Not true. A child is baptised into the Christian church, and on confirmation decides to become a catholic or Methodist or Church of Ireland etc.

Rubbish. What Christian Church? What choice is offered at confirmation? Why are the sacraments of confession and communion taken before confirmation given that they differ in their meaning and effect between the denominations?

EC1000

Cunsiderthis wrote: »

Not true. A child is baptised into the Christian church, and on confirmation decides to become a catholic or Methodist or Church of Ireland etc.

Emmmm....... sacrament of the Eucharist at 7 or 8 years of age, Eucharist being one of the fundamental differences between RC and Protestant Churches...... confirmation at 12 years...... I'd love to know where you got the above information!

EC1000

pinc wrote: »

What are the legal implications for the father ,and the priest involved if they baptised the child without the mothers consent, knowing she would object??

I cant see why there would be any. Its purely a dispute of a civil nature. However, if a court order were to be breached then that would be a different matter. However, as somebody previously suggested, that would be conditional on the court ruling on this in the first place.