plugged ball in rough--relief ??

soundsham

as i knew the rule you had relief through the green for a plugged ball,

but played recently and was told in the shop that a plugged ball in the rough could be lifted cleaned & dropped as the winter rule was placing in the fairway and play as you lie in rough

is this a rule change or was it a local rule,never asked and only thought of it later.........

just wondering

sound,

Daithio9

soundsham wrote: »

as i knew the rule you had relief through the green for a plugged ball,

Quoted from the RANDA rules of golf

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green. “Closely-mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

Also note this is a rule of golf and not just a local rule, so wherever or whenever you play the above rule always applies.

but played recently and was told in the shop that a plugged ball in the rough could be lifted cleaned & dropped as the winter rule was placing in the fairway and play as you lie in rough

Have a read of that again because as far as I can see, it's contradicting information.

is this a rule change or was it a local rule,never asked and only thought of it later.........

just wondering

sound,

No change afaik it's been that way for long time.

heavyballs

i've also been told that we can drop plugged balls in rough as free drop,so afaik local rule can over-ride a general rule,if no memtion of it on board then rule above applies

PhilipMarlowe

The rule of golf is closely mown only so fairways, paths through the rough (cut to fairway height) etc.
A club can have a local rule allowing relief through the green, i.e. anywhere not in a hazard and not including the tee box and the green of the hole being played as far as I remember.

It's my opinion that the local rule should be always the case because a plugged ball is a 'fault' of the course... but unless you know the local rule is in place then you have to assume you only get relief on closely mown areas.

soundsham

The reason i ask is I have not played much golf during winter and when I asked the guys today when playing at a different course neither of them were aware of a change

so what I believe is that it was a local rule and there is no change to the rules of golf

sound guys

Icepickle

A ruling please guys on the following scenario along the same lines of a plugged ball;

Hit my drive into a water hazard but found it deeply plugged in the bank.
In order to identify it I had to extract it & wipe all the gunk off of it. My thoughts were that I then had to replace it as it was within the hazard & consider whether to play it or not. I decided that it was unplayable & would take a penalty drop within the hazard. I asked one of my playing partners to stop the ball from bouncing into the water after it had hit the bank when I dropped it. I then placed the ball on the spot it struck the course & played from there under a one shot penalty.
Was this sequence of events a correct interpretation?

Russman

If you're declaring an unplayable, you can take it out of the hazard and drop under penalty. No need to leave it in the hazard.


The Op's scenario sounds like a mix-up in the communication/intertpretation of "winter rules".....? A local rule can't override a rule of golf but, for example, placing or "preferred lies" are regularly used on tour if conditions warrant it. Most, if not all, clubs have placing or lift, clean & drop in operation this time of year. AFAIK a competition cannot be a counting competition if placing in the rough is in use.

PhilipMarlowe

@Russman - some of the rules of golf are overridden by local rules. The relief from a plugged ball in the rough is one such example. Normally the rules of golf tell you to suck it up but a local rule can be put in place allowing relief. This isn't necessarily anything to do with winter rules.

@Icepickle - A couple of things to note. You can remove loose impediments to identify your ball in a hazard but I doubt that would have been the case for you. Sand and leaves would be ok but ball in the mud not really.
You could have played it as it lay and there wouldn't be a penalty if it turned out not to have been your ball.
Assuming you knew it was yours but decided not to play it, you could take your unplayable and drop in the hazard but most likely you'd decide to drop outside the hazard under your 1 stroke penalty. You wouldn't have needed to find the original ball, but you have to be virtually certain that it was lost in the hazard and not plugged (lost) outside the hazard. If you can't be sure that it is lost in the hazard then you have to treat it as a lost ball and go back and rehit from the previous spot, again under penalty.

steelbar

Something similiar happened to me recently. My ball plugged in the rough,so I lifted,cleaned and dropped it. But i managed to drop it back in to the original pitch mark, leaving half the ball buried under the ground. I was unsure what to do so i played it. Could i of re-dropped it?

PhilipMarlowe

Lol, these scenarios are wrecking my fragile head today
Yes, you are entitled to relief when you are embedded in the pitchmark created by the last stroke you made (assuming you are entitled to relief from an embedded ball by rule 25 or local rule or whatever). In fact, if your ball was embedded and you took a drop and it embedded again (not necessarily in it's own original pitchmark) then you are entitled to re-drop it. If it embeds again then you can place it as near as possible to where it plugged, not nearer the hole.

G1032

soundsham wrote: »

The reason i ask is I have not played much golf during winter and when I asked the guys today when playing at a different course neither of them were aware of a change

so what I believe is that it was a local rule and there is no change to the rules of golf

sound guys

Ya. It's a local rule and if in place does not affect the competitions status as a qualifying round. There was talk of it being introduced into the rules but don't think that has happened as of yet. The current rules book is due to be updated after 2011

Jasonw

Icepickle wrote: »

A ruling please guys on the following scenario along the same lines of a plugged ball;

Hit my drive into a water hazard but found it deeply plugged in the bank.
In order to identify it I had to extract it & wipe all the gunk off of it. My thoughts were that I then had to replace it as it was within the hazard & consider whether to play it or not. I decided that it was unplayable & would take a penalty drop within the hazard. I asked one of my playing partners to stop the ball from bouncing into the water after it had hit the bank when I dropped it. I then placed the ball on the spot it struck the course & played from there under a one shot penalty.
Was this sequence of events a correct interpretation?

Rule 28.

you can declare your ball unplayable at any point in the course except in a water hazzard.


you were right to ID your ball. then replace it. you then must play the ball as it lies observing the particular rules applying when you ball is in a hazzard or proceed to drop under penalty according to rule 26.

so in answer to your question it wasn't a correct interpertation.

soundsham

ball does not have to be identified in hazard,it can be played first and then checked,under no penalty even if it was a wrong ball

G1032

Icepickle wrote: »

I decided that it was unplayable & would take a penalty drop within the hazard.

Did you drop back in the hazard or what? Like on the bank?? How do you mean take a drop within the hazard? Sorry if i'm missing something here.

Jasonw

soundsham wrote: »

ball does not have to be identified in hazard,it can be played first and then checked,under no penalty even if it was a wrong ball

I don't think this is correct. can you point me to the applicable rule?

Russman

Jasonw wrote: »

I don't think this is correct. can you point me to the applicable rule?

@ jasonw, I think you're probably correct there, I have a vague recollection that the rule was changed maybe last year or 2008 (?) to allow a ball to be identified in a hazard. Previously you effectively couldn't play a wrong ball from a hazard but I think now you can.
Open to correction as I don't have a rule book in front of me right now

zztop

The rule of golf is closely mown only so fairways, paths through the rough (cut to fairway height) etc.
A club can have a local rule allowing relief through the green, i.e. anywhere not in a hazard and not including the tee box and the green of the hole being played as far as I remember.



Ah......so a ball in a spinney can br dropped because its not a hazard??

FlutterinBantam

Icepickle wrote: »

A ruling please guys on the following scenario along the same lines of a plugged ball;

Hit my drive into a water hazard but found it deeply plugged in the bank.
In order to identify it I had to extract it & wipe all the gunk off of it. My thoughts were that I then had to replace it as it was within the hazard & consider whether to play it or not. I decided that it was unplayable & would take a penalty drop within the hazard. I asked one of my playing partners to stop the ball from bouncing into the water after it had hit the bank when I dropped it. I then placed the ball on the spot it struck the course & played from there under a one shot penalty.
Was this sequence of events a correct interpretation?

Why did have to wipe all the gunk off it??

If in a hazard you should only remove the MINIMUM of gunk reqd to identify.

Why were you taking the penalty within the hazard?

You are entitled to drop out within two club lengths from where the ball last crossed the hazard line.

PhilipMarlowe

Interesting.. I missed that one about not having to identify your ball in a hazard.... it seems that there is now a penalty for hitting an incorrect ball in a hazard.

IITYWYBMAD

Licksy wrote: »

Interesting.. I missed that one about not having to identify your ball in a hazard.... it seems that there is now a penalty for hitting an incorrect ball in a hazard.

That rule was changed two or three years ago. It used to be that you did not have to identify your ball in hazard, now you do.

Icepickle

ronaldochokes wrote: »

Did you drop back in the hazard or what? Like on the bank?? How do you mean take a drop within the hazard? Sorry if i'm missing something here.

Sorry I thought the post was clear about the fact that I took a penalty drop on the bank within the hazard (i.e below the line of red stakes).

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Why did have to wipe all the gunk off it??

If in a hazard you should only remove the MINIMUM of gunk reqd to identify.

Why were you taking the penalty within the hazard?

You are entitled to drop out within two club lengths from where the ball last crossed the hazard line.

When I got to the ball there was only a tiny fraction of white visable. I had a bit of a job prising it out. The ground is quite peaty on our course so there was a thick covering of black wet soil on it. I was playing a Titleist & had a seperate, large mark on it to distinguish it as it's obviously a popular ball to play. I couldn't tell what part of the ball was up/down/left/right/back/front/whatever, so yes, I cleaned the whole ball. If this was wrong please point me to the rule that, as you state, MIMIMUM cleaning only to identify & I'll gladly stand corrected.

I am aware of the 2 club length, drop back along the line, or retake shot penalty options for a lost ball in a water hazard but was unsure of the procedure when actually finding the ball plugged.

I am not back playing golf long so am not fully up to speed with the rulings yet. I took a conservative approach to it. i.e not taking a relief that I wasn't sure that I was entitled to.


Thanks to all the posters for your responses. Very good debate as usual guys & it does seem to appear that there are somewhat conflicting opinions/understandings of the rules around.

Daithio9

Icepickle wrote: »

Sorry I thought the post was clear about the fact that I took a penalty drop on the bank within the hazard (i.e below the line of red stakes).


When I got to the ball there was only a tiny fraction of white visable. I had a bit of a job prising it out. The ground is quite peaty on our course so there was a thick covering of black wet soil on it. I was playing a Titleist & had a seperate, large mark on it to distinguish it as it's obviously a popular ball to play. I couldn't tell what part of the ball was up/down/left/right/back/front/whatever, so yes, I cleaned the whole ball. If this was wrong please point me to the rule that, as you state, MIMIMUM cleaning only to identify & I'll gladly stand corrected.

I am aware of the 2 club length, drop back along the line, or retake shot penalty options for a lost ball in a water hazard but was unsure of the procedure when actually finding the ball plugged.

I am not back playing golf long so am not fully up to speed with the rulings yet. I took a conservative approach to it. i.e not taking a relief that I wasn't sure that I was entitled to.


Thanks to all the posters for your responses. Very good debate as usual guys & it does seem to appear that there are somewhat conflicting opinions/understandings of the rules around.

The problem with getting other peoples opinions on the rules is you will often get conflicting and incorrect information so it's best to read the rule in question yourself and if needs be discuss it with others afterwards for further clarification.
The R and A website is only a click away and the rules section is very easy to use. Look at rule 12-1 and 12-2
http://randapublic.loghar.com/flash/rules/rules_2008_2011.html

IITYWYBMAD

Icepickle wrote: »

Sorry I thought the post was clear about the fact that I took a penalty drop on the bank within the hazard (i.e below the line of red stakes).

Why did you drop in the hazard?

Icepickle

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Why did you drop in the hazard?

Are my post really that unclear?

Icepickle wrote: »

I am aware of the 2 club length, drop back along the line, or retake shot penalty options for a lost ball in a water hazard but was unsure of the procedure when actually finding the ball plugged.

I am not back playing golf long so am not fully up to speed with the rulings yet. I took a conservative approach to it. i.e not taking a relief that I wasn't sure that I was entitled to.

I dropped in the hazard, taking a conservative approach, as I was unsure that after finding the ball plugged I could use a penalty drop to take the relief out of the hazard.

ShriekingSheet

Icepickle wrote: »

Are my post really that unclear?



I dropped in the hazard, taking a conservative approach, as I was unsure that after finding the ball plugged I could use a penalty drop to take the relief out of the hazard.

I think the key little piece your missing, that's causing confusion, is the "point of entry". So in any water hazard, where the ball actually ends up is irrelevent. The point at which the ball crossed into the hazard is what matters. From this point you take your two club lengths no nearer the hole (can be sideways), or go back on the line keeping this point (not the ball!) on your line.

Note that if it's a yellow hazard, youo don't have the option of two-club lengths - just dropping back on the line.

So in your case, assuming you were sure the ball went in the hazard, the only reason you'd need to identify the ball would be if you were going to play it from the plug mark. So when you decided you weren't going to play it as it lay, where the ball was became irrelevent, and you turn your attention to the point of entry over the hazard line. From this point, you apply the rules.

It makes sense when you think of it - as it's one rule for all water hazards, including fairly dry ones where you will see/find your ball, and others that are gushing rivers where your ball will be washed away immediately.

IITYWYBMAD

Icepickle wrote: »

Are my post really that unclear?



I dropped in the hazard, taking a conservative approach, as I was unsure that after finding the ball plugged I could use a penalty drop to take the relief out of the hazard.

Your posts are a bit unclear, or at least your last but one is. By taking a penalty drop, you made the correct decision. Why you would take that penalty drop within the hazard is confusing for me. You say in your initial post that :

Hit my drive into a water hazard but found it deeply plugged in the bank.
I decided that it was unplayable and that you would take a penalty drop.

I think it is legitimate to ask why you would further penalise yourself by having to not only take a penalty drop, but by also taking that drop in the hazard. If you don't find it a legitimate question, that's fine.

soundsham

Licksy wrote: »

Interesting.. I missed that one about not having to identify your ball in a hazard.... it seems that there is now a penalty for hitting an incorrect ball in a hazard.

didn't know this changed either .........thanks

PhilipMarlowe

When you're lifting/cleaning a ball to identify it you do the minimum possible disturbance because if it's yours then you replace and recreate the original lie as much as possible.
In your case you could have replaced the ball and decided to play it as it lay without any penalty.
Once you decide to take the penalty then you should decide to take the relief too so you'd drop outside the hazard, keeping the point of entry and the flag in a line and go back on that line as far as you like.
If it were a lateral water hazard (red stakes instead of the usual yellow) then you get the option of coming out sideways within 2 clublengths from the point of entry (as well as a point on the opposite margin of the hazard that's the same distance form the hole).

G1032

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Why you would take that penalty drop within the hazard is confusing for me. You say in your initial post that :

I'm going to drop it after this now, but dropping within the hazard, when there is no reason to do so (like dropping from casual water in a bunker for example) is just incredibly bizarre to say the least. I just can't fathom why someone would do this. Anyway it's done now and nobody got hurt!!!!:)

Icepickle

OK I think we have established what the correct procedure is & that I didn't take full advantage of the reliefs available to me.

To the posters that still have difficulty comprehending why I dropped in the hazard, I'll expand on the following;

Originally Posted by Icepickle
I am aware of the 2 club length, drop back along the line, or retake shot penalty options for a lost ball in a water hazard but was unsure of the procedure when actually finding the ball plugged.

I am not back playing golf long so am not fully up to speed with the rulings yet. I took a conservative approach to it. i.e not taking a relief that I wasn't sure that I was entitled to.


I wasn't 100% sure I could take the 2 club length or drop back along the line options to give relief out of the hazard so eliminated them from my decision for fear of taking a relief that at the time I thought might not be available to me.

I thought I was left with;
Replace the deeply plugged ball & play it (a disaster waiting to happen).
Go back to the tee & hit my 3rd (last resort).
Drop within hazard & play from there under penalty (preferred option).

Where I got muddled was between various rules & crossover of rules relating to water hazards/lost balls/plugged balls/winter rules.

Whyner

No worries, good post. Looks like it's educated a few amongst us including myself.