Using Separate Mics for high end and low end

pistonsvox

Say using Bass DI for low end and Bass mic to get high end off the driver, kick in for attack/resonance and kick out for just thump (having no tone just dull thump) snare top (same again dull smack) and snare bottom for snap.

Just wondering if this is common practice...cos this is what I do alot. :pac:

PaulBrewer

pistonsvox wrote: »

Say using Bass DI for low end and Bass mic to get high end off the driver, kick in for attack/resonance and kick out for just thump (having no tone just dull thump) snare top (same again dull smack) and snare bottom for snap.

Just wondering if this is common practice...cos this is what I do alot. :pac:

The big issue between DIed and Miced bass amp is time delay and the problems that causes.

However a quick look in your Daw and you can slide and match them which should sort that.

A common enough technique is taping something like a AKG C451 or KM 184 to a 57 and putting the whole heap on the snare.

The snare top and bottom mic is usually used as a 'balance' thing i.e. how much of the wire sound is in the snare sound, as opposed to frequencies specifically.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

most people use bass di for the high end
and the mic for the low end

kick in for attack high end and kick out for resonance / low end

any very little few people use bottom snare mics - you are better off putting a few round rocks under the snare to diffuse the snare sound back up into the overheads.

studiorat

DaDumTish wrote: »

any very little few people use bottom snare mics - you are better off putting a few round rocks under the snare to diffuse the snare sound back up into the overheads.

Or put a mic at under snare height about 3 ot 4 feet away in a diagional between the snare and kik.

Rocks? Every days a school day....

pistonsvox

Ah sure im sorta there so...haha!

madtheory

Maybe I'm over complicating things, but here goes.

1. I sometimes find that if bass mic and DI are "time aligned" that it sounds worse. Like, howcome we could get a perfectly good blend of mic and DI when we used tape?

2. I don't see the mic as "low end" and the DI as "top end". Here's why.A good mic and a good DI will have a similar response down to 20 Hz. Lower than that, not many mics are flat. So theoretically, the DI gives you more bass! Thing is, they're hearing two different sources.The DI will give you faster attack transients than any mic, so that will sound "bright". The mic will pick up the cabinet resonance, which is designed to boost the low end, so that will sound "bassy".

3. Anyway, it all totally depends on the musician. Anecdotaly: I have one guy with an oldish Warwick, set that thing to passive and plug in to the line input and it sounds superb. No mic. Impedance ratio out the window. Another guy with a lovely Orange amp and Fender Precision. DI sounds lifeless, but a 414 on the cab mixed with a bit of DI, no time alignment, sounds superb.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ok,

2. I don't see the mic as "low end" and the DI as "top end". Here's why.A good mic and a good DI will have a similar response down to 20 Hz. Lower than that, not many mics are flat. So theoretically, the DI gives you more bass! Thing is, they're hearing two different sources.The DI will give you faster attack transients than any mic, so that will sound "bright". The mic will pick up the cabinet resonance, which is designed to boost the low end, so that will sound "bassy".


i dindt say it in as clear a term as you , but its the same as what I said

godfrey

something which hasn't been mentioned so far, in the bass di/mic area, is that a mic will bring you the richness (noise, distortion, warts and all) generated my the combination of the bass amp and cab. you don't get this from the di. sometimes it's desirable, sometimes not. all down to player, style, gear, and of course, taste.

g

Obi-Jim

DaDumTish wrote: »

most people use bass di for the high end
and the mic for the low end

Where did you get this? Who are these most people?
The only time i've ever heard of this method is if somebody just prefers the low end sound of a specific amp(or subwoofer) for a specific project. But for general use, I think the opposite is true. Certainly for live gigs DI's are "generally" used for low end, mic the amp for midrange. Usually the character of the amp is what is desired, the character is in the midrange, not the low end.

If you use a mic like a D112 or something, of course you are going to boost the low end, but this is the sound of the mic, not the bass guitar or amp. If you even look at some frequency response charts of bass amps, they can start to roll off at 100-110Hz, and only get down to 47-53Hz.

It's pretty easy to check out too. Get the flatest bass response mic you can.... mic the amp, DI too, then LPF both of them and you can hear the difference.

I usually mic under a snare, sometimes use it, sometimes not. I find if you get it tuned pretty well, you'll be grand.

Regarding the OP, I don't think it's uncommon what you do. I think it's just important to always be conscious of phase. The more mics you put up, obviously the more of a chance that there will be issues.

Some people even mix frequency based. Treat the low end and midrange of a bass guitar seperately, same with vocals. But, you really need phase respectful EQ. (I know Tony Maserati has spoken of doing this, just for one reference). Maybe you wouldn't treat a whole mix like that, but sometimes it's good to try it out. This can be kind of be similar to multiband compression on things like vocals or guitars, but at the same time, its not.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

Obi-Jim wrote: »

Where did you get this? Who are these most people?
.

chill out pal - why do you even care ?

Obi-Jim

DaDumTish wrote: »

chill out pal

Ha! Sorry, didn't mean it to sound attacking or anything. Just thought it strange to say that that's what most people do, when I don't think it is.

DaDumTish wrote: »

why do you even care ?

I guess just the same reason that anyone else who posts cares

jtsuited

yeah i've always seen it with di used for low end and amp for low mids/mid-range/top if the bassist is using a plec (sounds a bit too harsh di'd when playing with a plectrum).

to the op...there are many various permutations when doing this, and, as with everything, experience and experimentation is key.

pistonsvox

Obi-Jim wrote: »

I usually mic under a snare, sometimes use it, sometimes not. I find if you get it tuned pretty well, you'll be grand.

Regarding the OP, I don't think it's uncommon what you do. I think it's just important to always be conscious of phase. The more mics you put up, obviously the more of a chance that there will be issues.

Some people even mix frequency based. Treat the low end and midrange of a bass guitar seperately, same with vocals. But, you really need phase respectful EQ. (I know Tony Maserati has spoken of doing this, just for one reference). Maybe you wouldn't treat a whole mix like that, but sometimes it's good to try it out. This can be kind of be similar to multiband compression on things like vocals or guitars, but at the same time, its not.

Yeah I always flip the phase on em. I prefer just having the undermic there so if there ever was a loss in attack or snap ill have it there.

I do make vox exciter channels (since I dont have the plugin) for vocals, like duplicate the channel and have everything rolled off to about 8k upwards and compress.

Obi-Jim

jtsuited wrote: »

yeah i've always seen it with di used for low end and amp for low mids/mid-range/top if the bassist is using a plec (sounds a bit too harsh di'd when playing with a plectrum).

Yea, that pick can be pretty crap. Even a bit of sansamp is better than that

studiorat

In my experience it's pretty hard to tell if you are going to get more or less low end from bass or amp. It seems to change from rig to rig, I don't think there's a definite rule.

It would make sense that the guitar could possibly have more low end, but the amp room combo could either boost or cut the amount.

I also don't buy in to the school of thought that just because all the transients are lined up together it's going to sound better. It's one of the issues I have with convolution systems all seeming to have a specific character to them, that rounding up of reflection timings in convolution reverb tails.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i have 1983 aria sbr-80 which I coudlnt get on with as a bass , but now its my go to bass for recording as it got such a dark sound , plectrums sound great on it even on di

fingers sound even darker - its got some mojo
I tend to use the stingray more for fingers though .


one thing ive tried which im gonna buy is the softube bass room package

if you duplicate the di track through this and blend the two - its pretty damn good.

that softube stuff is quite special .
just have to save up and buy it .

Seziertisch

DaDumTish wrote: »

i have 1983 aria sbr-80 which I coudlnt get on with as a bass , but now its my go to bass for recording as it got such a dark sound , plectrums sound great on it even on di

fingers sound even darker - its got some mojo
I tend to use the stingray more for fingers though .


one thing ive tried which im gonna buy is the softube bass room package

if you duplicate the di track through this and blend the two - its pretty damn good.

that softube stuff is quite special .
just have to save up and buy it .

I would be inclined to say that investing in a good DI box would probably be money better spent. The Phoenix Audio Nice DI is great value for the money. Not only is it a great DI but it also works as a great general signal warmer/fattener. Also, piggyback the channels (overdriving one and using the other to regulate gain) and you have a great sounding distortion unit that will give you the sort of gritty warmth that sits perfectly in a mix with little or no tweaking or eqing.

Otherwise, regarding DI recordings you should check out the Vovox Sonorus guitar cable. In my experience DI'd bass is one of the ways you can really hear the difference that a guitar cable can make to your sound.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

is the pacifica DI no good ?

seems a waste of a good preamp !

sounds damn good on bass to me

i have that lead by the way

madtheory

Surely the only difference between those DIs is a little bit of colour? They're both excellent I would've thought?

What's that Vovox Sonorus cable got that others don't?

Seziertisch

DaDumTish wrote: »

is the pacifica DI no good ?

seems a waste of a good preamp !

sounds damn good on bass to me

i have that lead by the way

I wasn't referring to the Pacifica, but more generally to investing in relatively expensive plugins for mixing bass when someone don't have a good DI. Mixing DI and amp can work well, but a good quality DI will definitely do the job on its own. If you find your DI sound on its own isn't delivering something completely usable, then the problem is elsewhere.

Seziertisch

madtheory wrote: »

Surely the only difference between those DIs is a little bit of colour? They're both excellent I would've thought?

What's that Vovox Sonorus cable got that others don't?

The Sonorus seems to have a lot less capacitance than other cables. The signal is stronger/louder. It also has an extended top and bottom end which really gives a very full sound. For guitars, depending on the amp/guitar combo this can be a good or bad thing. For bass, I have heard nothing to touch the Sonorus.

This isn't an invitation to have a discussion on guitar cables, by the way. Out of those people that I know who say a guitar cable couldn't make a difference, none of them have actually bothered to hear for themselves. Out of those I know who have bothered to listen, there is nobody who can't hear the difference. If you're interested in demoing for yourself, our resident gear pimp B Prewer sells the Vovox stuff.

MilanPan!c

Who is this P Brewer?

Rockshamrover

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Who is this P Brewer?

How long have you been on this forum?

Mr Brewer is...........a legend.

He's seen it all and done it all.

Has a vast amount of knowledge on all things music production related.

MilanPan!c

Rockshamrover wrote: »

How long have you been on this forum?

Mr Brewer is...........a legend.

He's seen it all and done it all.

Has a vast amount of knowledge on all things music production related.

Not that long obviously

Well, How does one contact this legend re: the magic lead?

Seziertisch

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Not that long obviously

Well, How does one contact this legend re: the magic lead?

How to contact this legend in 10 easy steps.

1. Take the belt off your dressing gown
2. Take off all your clothes
3. Close the door to your room
4. Sit down on the floor beside the door
5. Tie one end of the belt from your dressing gown to the door knob
6. Tie the other end of the belt around your neck
7. Lean forward so that the belt restricts your breathing
8. Start masturbating
9. Just before you climax all over yourself shout out his name at the top of your voice
10. He will appear before you to meet all your pro-audio needs.

... Alternatively you could just send him a PM.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

I nearly got sick laffing at that ^^^^^^^^:D

madtheory

Lads, be nice... P Brewer posts as "Paul Brewer" that might ring a bell

Seziertisch wrote: »

This isn't an invitation to have a discussion on guitar cables

You're no fun. I wanted to argue about RC networks and dubious claims about power cords

MilanPan!c

madtheory wrote: »

Lads, be nice... P Brewer posts as "Paul Brewer" that might ring a bell

You're no fun. I wanted to argue about RC networks and dubious claims about power cords

I'll sell you some remastering discs for your CD player.

Only 50€.

pistonsvox

I want better sounding room temperature

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

How long have you been on this forum?

Mr Brewer is...........a legend.

He's seen it all and done it all.

Has a vast amount of knowledge on all things music production related.

Don't exaggerate Rock, it's unbecoming ...;)

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Don't exaggerate Rock, it's unbecoming ...;)

Hey Lord Paul, where can I get the magic leads?

Seziertisch

Obviously this is a youtube clip so not the greatest quality, but I think the difference in sound between the two cables is pretty apparent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VQCw1YrFPM

Rockshamrover

Seziertisch wrote: »

Obviously this is a youtube clip so not the greatest quality, but I think the difference in sound between the two cables is pretty apparent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VQCw1YrFPM

That's a big difference. Are those cables expensive?

MilanPan!c

Rockshamrover wrote: »

That's a big difference. Are those cables expensive?

That's a good question.

Seziertisch

Rockshamrover wrote: »

That's a big difference. Are those cables expensive?

If you are able to solder, the Evidence Audio can be bought for less than $5 a foot from Lava Cable. Personally, I would say that that was money well spent.

Rockshamrover

Seziertisch wrote: »

If you are able to solder, the Evidence Audio can be bought for less than $5 a foot from Lava Cable. Personally, I would say that that was money well spent.

Sounds like a good price but I can't solder.

Are they being distributed in Ireland do you know?

MilanPan!c

Seziertisch wrote: »

If you are able to solder, the Evidence Audio can be bought for less than $5 a foot from Lava Cable. Personally, I would say that that was money well spent.

How much are they per foot if I can't solder?

Rockshamrover

Distributed in Ireland by Guitopia. Never heard of them. I think they are based in Lurgan but they don't seem to have a website:mad:

Seziertisch

MilanPan!c wrote: »

How much are they per foot if I can't solder?

Check out the Lava Cable website for prices. The pre-made cables are a good bit more expensive. Otherwise, soldering really isn't that difficult. Having the right equipment is the first step to doing a good job. I have found that some low wattage soldering pens struggle to get hot enough to melt lead free solder. The lead stuff is still readily enough available and is easier to work with (melts at a lower temperature). Also, a couple of clamps to hold what you are soldering in place are a must.

Incidentally, I generally prefer the Evidence Audio to Vovox on guitars.

Laserharp

madtheory wrote: »

I wanted to argue about RC networks and dubious claims about power cords

Power cords aside, RC analysis is probably too simplistic. What seems to happen is that a cable can change the midrange peak, regardless of whether it is a "good" cable or not. It seems to depend mainly on the length of the cable (which is proportional to the capacitance) and what pots are used in the guitar. There's a nice investigation here:

http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes/guitarcables/guitarcables.htm

In the olden days, you had to know the capacitance of the cable before you hooked it up to the cartridge of your record player, to avoid this sort of peaking eq.