Why Did he fail to reach the top?

DM_7

Okay there are so many guys who never made it to the top.

I often wonder why some people never made it further.

The First guy I think of is Shelton Benjamin. I always enjoy his matches and if he was a in a good feud I would happily pay to see him compete. I know he has problems with the vocal side of things but other guys have got past that. The fact he is black should of helped him in the wwe in last couple of years after the Hayes thing but he hasn't done anything.

So are there other reasons, has he a bad attitude? Did he not work hard enough on his weaknesses? Did a particular time in his career do to much damage? Because he styled himslef on the guy that did the thong song?



Please Clue me in PW forum.

Also if you have any queries of why a guy never reached a higher spot why not ask here:)


ps I was going to ask about Matt Hardy but Rjd2 anwered that in another thread

Rjd2

Shelton never really connected with the audience like a main eventer must. Their has also been stories he is happy with his midcard position, which is fair enough in my view, but I doubt it impresses the boys in the back to much. :pac:

waltersobchak

Rjd2 wrote: »

Shelton never really connected with the audience like a main eventer must. Their has also been stories he is happy with his midcard position, which is fair enough in my view, but I doubt it impresses the boys in the back to much. :pac:

He was pretty over when he first moved over to Raw in 2005, and got some clean wins over HHH to boot, He just doesnt have enough charisma to make the casual fan care about him thats his problem, and Mama Benjamin hardly helped him either:pac:

The Volt

Good idea for a thread.

I think re: Benjamin, personally for me he lacks the charisma to be a top, top star. He has all the ability in the world though and could really fill a void left by Angle/Benoit if developed correctly.

Others that come to mind are Kane (defies belief why they only gave him one title reign that lasted a night), Roddy Piper deserved a run surely.

Diabhal Beag

Shelton was too lazy and didn't care enough. Kinda like Carlito. He was a great worker and all but everything he did backstage went down the wrong way and he was always considered the eternal mid-carder. He was given the Intercontinental strap twice and did nothing.

He did have a great match with HBK with one of the greatest endings to a match ever.

JP Liz V1

When Shelton was first traded to RAW in 2004 he way way over with the fans he was in feuds with Evolution and even beat HHH also Jericho and Flair for the IC title i guess that would have been the perfect time for him to win or compete for the big one

He isnt great on the mic but that could be remedied by giving him a valet or manager

I dont see him winning MITB this year at WM even though this is his "match"

I have noticed lately that Matt Hardy is very much over the crowds but he too will never reach the summit in WWE :rolleyes:

DM_7

Rjd2 wrote: »

Shelton never really connected with the audience like a main eventer must. Their has also been stories he is happy with his midcard position, which is fair enough in my view, but I doubt it impresses the boys in the back to much. :pac:

I thought Shelton got pretty over but then again that was a few years back.

If its true he is/was happy with mid card then they should of fired his ass! Its mad to think he was possibly happy, he obviously put serious effort into his amateur days. Even in the gym now he is obviosuly putting the hours in, that makes him look like a determined guy. I just assumed a guy with that level of determination in other things would want to be the best.

Such a waste (imo).

Voltwad wrote: »

Others that come to mind are Kane (defies belief why they only gave him one title reign that lasted a night), Roddy Piper deserved a run surely.

The Kane one is another one, he did become champion but the fact it was for a day means there is a big * beside it. I think they messed up the Kane persona completely.

Mr.Nice Guy

I would cite Benjamin's lack of mic skills but I also feel a lack of political stroke hurt him as well. He was actually great around 2004 and 2005 and I always felt he would have been a terrific fit for Evolution getting to work with talented talkers like HHH and Flair. Instead a guy like Batista, with equally poor mic skills and not a tenth of Benjamin's ability, managed to benefit from this situation and was sent straight to the top.

The Volt

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I would cite Benjamin's lack of mic skills but I also feel a lack of political stroke hurt him as well. He was actually great around 2004 and 2005 and I always felt he would have been a terrific fit for Evolution getting to work with talented talkers like HHH and Flair. Instead a guy like Batista, with equally poor mic skills and not a tenth of Benjamin's ability, managed to benefit from this situation and was sent straight to the top.

I think in Batista's defence he suited the kind of beast they needed for the stable at the time.

DM_7

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I would cite Benjamin's lack of mic skills but I also feel a lack of political stroke hurt him as well. He was actually great around 2004 and 2005 and I always felt he would have been a terrific fit for Evolution getting to work with talented talkers like HHH and Flair. Instead a guy like Batista, with equally poor mic skills and not a tenth of Benjamin's ability, managed to benefit from this situation and was sent straight to the top.

Benjamin as part of a group like evolution would have been fantastic.

Rjd2

waltersobchak wrote: »

Mama Benjamin hardly helped him either:pac:

She was more over than he was and all, which wasn't a good thing. :pac:
You can't really complain about Batista been pushed ahead of Shelton, Dave may not be the second coming of Benoit but the dude oozes charisma and was able to connect with the WWE audience much better than Shelton ever has.

I always enjoyed Benjamin's matches.
I always hoped WWE would sign Kevin Randelman just to Tag with him.
That would be awesome.
Ive heard he has a bad attitude back stage. And thats why he hasn't been utilised to his potential.

Mr.Nice Guy

Voltwad wrote: »

I think in Batista's defence he suited the kind of beast they needed for the stable at the time.

I'd agree with that. I don't think he should have been there instead of him but I would have liked him there alongside him.

Rjd2 wrote:

You can't really complain about Batista been pushed ahead of Shelton, Dave may not be the second coming of Benoit but the dude oozes charisma and was able to connect with the WWE audience much better than Shelton ever has.

He was able to connect with the audience because he became buddies with Hunter and was then pushed to the moon. Before that the guy was on the verge of being fired. Remember the Deacon Batista stuff? There was no charisma being oozed at that time.

Cactus Colm

Rjd2 wrote: »

She was more over than he was and all, which wasn't a good thing. :pac:
You can't really complain about Batista been pushed ahead of Shelton, Dave may not be the second coming of Benoit but the dude oozes charisma and was able to connect with the WWE audience much better than Shelton ever has.

But when Mama Benji failed to get him over, it seemed that the creative lost interest in him for a while. Most of the time it seems like he's just spinning his wheels until his annual money in the bank appearance. Hopefully he'll get another chance to show he can work with the big players some time, otherwise he might be better off in tna.

Cactus Colm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

He was able to connect with the audience because he became buddies with Hunter and was then pushed to the moon. Before that the guy was on the verge of being fired. Remember the Deacon Batista stuff? There was no charisma being oozed at that time.

I'd have to disagree with you to a degree. I remember the deacon batista, and it was pretty shoddy stuff. But that was a terrible gimmick, playing second fiddle to Reverend Devon.

It wasn't until Batista came to Smackdown in 05 (I think) that I realised just how much charisma the chap has. He was able to make matches feel big time, and put real emotion into his scripted lines.

I haven't seen Shelton show 1/4 of the charisma Batista showed in that period.

Mr.Nice Guy

Cactus Colm wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with you to a degree. I remember the deacon batista, and it was pretty shoddy stuff. But that was a terrible gimmick, playing second fiddle to Reverend Devon.

It wasn't until Batista came to Smackdown in 05 (I think) that I realised just how much charisma the chap has. He was able to make matches feel big time, and put real emotion into his scripted lines.

I haven't seen Shelton show 1/4 of the charisma Batista showed in that period.

But he was World Champion by the time he came to Smackdown in 05 right? I'm not disputing that he was a star at that stage. But after Hunter had put him over like three times, after he's won a Rumble and main evented Mania and won. Of course he would come across as big time after that. I'm just saying it only happened because he formed a friendship with Hunter.

I am convinced he would have gone the way of Tomko, A-Train, Luther Reigns etc. and all the others had he not started working out with Hunter in his free time.

Cactus Colm

Cactus Colm wrote: »

I haven't seen Shelton show 1/4 of the charisma Batista showed in that period.

It's more of a question of Charisma over Ability.
Shelton is hugely talented whereas Batista has about 4 moves.
Shelton is bad on the mic while Batista is decent.
I think another couple of guys who should have made it to the top
were Spanky and London. I'l never forget my mark out moment when Kendrick was interim champ.

Cactus Colm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

But he was World Champion by the time he came to Smackdown in 05 right? I'm not disputing that he was a star at that stage. But after Hunter had put him over like three times, after he's won a Rumble and main evented Mania and won. Of course he would come across as big time after that. I'm just saying it only happened because he formed a friendship with Hunter.

I am convinced he would have gone the way of Tomko, A-Train, Luther Reigns etc. and all the others had he not started working out with Hunter in his free time.

That could be true, I couldn't say. I didn't have access to Raw at the time, so I can't really talk about Batista in evolution, just what I saw of him on smackdown. His association with super hunter might have gotten Batista up to the main event, but it was big Dave's own natural charms that made him one of the top two babyface stars of the company. When he had to give up the heavyweight title due to injury, you could see the heartache, and felt the pain. There are very few wrestlers on the roster at any level that could so well convey emotions like that.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's more of a question of Charisma over Ability.
Shelton is hugely talented whereas Batista has about 4 moves.
Shelton is bad on the mic while Batista is decent.
I think another couple of guys who should have made it to the top
were Spanky and London. I'l never forget my mark out moment when Kendrick was interim champ.

Thought they were a great tag team ... another false dawn for the wwe's tag division. Always seems like wwe can only have one great tag team at a time, once another shows potential, it's split up, or sent to another brand.

Handsome Bob

I think in every case of someone not getting to the top you can be sure that it was either because

• They didn't toe the line backstage or
• They didn't have the mic skills or
• They didn't have the looks to make up for their lack of mic skills.

In the case of Hardy, Carlito and Benjamin, they unfortunately don't have the charisma and mic skills to truly carry "big" storylines. I used to deny that but I accept it now.

Then look at the likes of Sheamus and Batista, they have average mic skills at best. But they have a certain look that propelled them to the top, or had the right backers backstage.

Rjd2

Deleted User wrote: »

were Spanky and London. I'l never forget my mark out moment when Kendrick was interim champ.

Kendrick as champ was awesome wasn't it?:pac:
Spanky liked the weed, he has admitted that, the dude failed pot tests around 11 times or so. :pac:
I doubt that was the reason why his push fizzled out, but it didn't help and well then their is the size issue and all.
London is meant to have been a total headcase backstage, and he smiled at an inopportune time if I remember correctly.

Rjd2

Rjd2 wrote: »

Kendrick as champ was awesome wasn't it?:pac:
Spanky liked the weed, he has admitted that, the dude failed pot tests around 11 times or so. :pac:
I doubt that was the reason why his push fizzled out, but it didn't help and well then their is the size issue and all.
London is meant to have been a total headcase backstage, and he smiled at an inopportune time if I remember correctly.

Yeah the exploding limo storyline.
What a legend.

rossie1977

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I am convinced he would have gone the way of Tomko, A-Train, Luther Reigns etc. and all the others had he not started working out with Hunter in his free time.

the guy that made him agrees with you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsoAsBAEwx4

JP Liz V1

LZ5by5 wrote: »

In the case of Hardy, Carlito and Benjamin, they unfortunately don't have the charisma and mic skills to truly carry "big" storylines. I used to deny that but I accept it now.

Carlito impressed when he first debuted in his feud with Cena

I guess having HHH on your side also helps in your push to the top :rolleyes:

starviewadams

I'm 95% sure that Christian will never reach the top in the WWE either,just something mid-carder-ish about him that he'll struggle to shake off.

Looks like his only hope is to start lifting weights with Triple H!!

Bubs101

LZ5by5 wrote: »

In the case of Hardy, Carlito and Benjamin, they unfortunately don't have the charisma and mic skills to truly carry "big" storylines. I used to deny that but I accept it now.

Carlito has great charisma and is solid on the mic. Him and Benjamin have a massive problem with motivation. When they want to be they're really good but you have to want to be. Matt Hardy just isn't great at anything, doesn't have a great look, he's not a great worker, not a great promo etc.

Steiner is the one I can never understand. he should have been Rock big. Outstanding look, the best of the attitude era, Phenomenal worker when he was younger and just unbelievably great heel promo's yet he never became a proper superstar despite being champ

Handsome Bob

I think there is something awfully generic about Carlito's promos, it's the same shit all the time. He hasn't caught my interest in a long time.

Angron

The one that upsets me the most remains the fact that Kane never got bigger. He's my fav wrestler, and I hate that he's used to put over younger talent instead.

I know he was champ for a time, but I think it's a shame it took RVD so long to win a world championship in the WWE, he was pretty well loved in the WWE, and he had lots of talent. Given the Mary-J fiasco with Sabu, that might have hurt, but that was post WWE/ECW championship, wasn't it?

SlickRic

'in the meantime...f*ck you'

ah, you gotta love Jim Cornette.

sky88

Denny M wrote: »

The one that upsets me the most remains the fact that Kane never got bigger. He's my fav wrestler, and I hate that he's used to put over younger talent instead.

I know he was champ for a time, but I think it's a shame it took RVD so long to win a world championship in the WWE, he was pretty well loved in the WWE, and he had lots of talent. Given the Mary-J fiasco with Sabu, that might have hurt, but that was post WWE/ECW championship, wasn't it?

am i the only one who thinks rvd is overrated i mean hes good but to me hes good but not great and he was always that slight bit below a main event player

sky88

sky88 wrote: »

am i the only one who thinks rvd is overrated i mean hes good but to me hes good but not great and he was always that slight bit below a main event player

No i've always been an RVD mark, since he beat Cena for the title.

jaykhunter

RVD hasn't really ever cut a great promo in WWE. I can't vouch for his ECW days, but I imagine he's a better speaker than the 1-dimensional laid-back pot-smoker in WWE. I reckon he's kinda like Jericho - who really excels when wrestling a main-event calibre wrestler, but only has OK matches with OK talent.

I dunno if it's been said, but Batista looks like a million bucks. When people see him, they go "holy ****". Even though he can't cut a promo (until recently; he seems to 'get it' now) he really rallies the crowd; something Haas, Benjamin etc can't do. Nobody goes 'holy ****' when they see Haas put on the Haas of Pain. (ok, so 30 people marked out lol)

I love the unsung mid-carders, but they do lack qualities in which WWE need for 99% of wrestlers to be a main-eventer (size + over with the fans). Almost nobody's gotten by with wrestling talent alone (Benoit had one transitional run) so WWE isn't the place for uni-faceted wrestlers. That said there's always a place for steady mid-carders in WWE.

With regards to Benjamin (or Carlito for that matter), he's happy showing up for work and collecting a (sizable) paycheque. He realises he doesn't have the size/charisma/X-Factor to break into the main-event, and his in-ring work --his base level-- is better than most people when they're trying really hard. So you can't blame them for keeping healthy and getting paid. It's not like they'd get into a main event if they tried their very best at promos for a year...not unless The Royal Rumble counts as a main-event...

I just wish Christian was a little thicker --he's SO thin-- because if he had the girth I reckon Vince wouldn't have released him and he'd've made a short world title run by now... He's great in the ring and consistently over. I still think he will be champ some day...whenever Edge and Christian finally enter a programme together.

Vince135792003

Bubs101 wrote: »

Steiner is the one I can never understand. he should have been Rock big.

He was in WCW. Mysery over.

WCW only ever made 2 guys Goldberg and DDP. Goldberg was an accident and DDP was Bischoff's buddy.

thesultan

Diesel in WWF when he switched to Scott Hall he was only second to Hogan

rossie1977

sky88 wrote: »

am i the only one who thinks rvd is overrated i mean hes good but to me hes good but not great and he was always that slight bit below a main event player

i remember reading something on an roh thread a while back

"you can't spell overrated without R-V-D"

rossie1977

thesultan wrote: »

Diesel in WWF when he switched to Scott Hall he was only second to Hogan

thesultan

In relation to WCW. Some brillant moments on Nitro. He was for the most part bodyguard to Shuan Micheals in WWF

sky88

jaykhunter wrote: »

RVD hasn't really ever cut a great promo in WWE. I can't vouch for his ECW days, but I imagine he's a better speaker than the 1-dimensional laid-back pot-smoker in WWE. I reckon he's kinda like Jericho - who really excels when wrestling a main-event calibre wrestler, but only has OK matches with OK talent.

I dunno if it's been said, but Batista looks like a million bucks. When people see him, they go "holy ****". Even though he can't cut a promo (until recently; he seems to 'get it' now) he really rallies the crowd; something Haas, Benjamin etc can't do. Nobody goes 'holy ****' when they see Haas put on the Haas of Pain. (ok, so 30 people marked out lol)

I love the unsung mid-carders, but they do lack qualities in which WWE need for 99% of wrestlers to be a main-eventer (size + over with the fans). Almost nobody's gotten by with wrestling talent alone (Benoit had one transitional run) so WWE isn't the place for uni-faceted wrestlers. That said there's always a place for steady mid-carders in WWE.

With regards to Benjamin (or Carlito for that matter), he's happy showing up for work and collecting a (sizable) paycheque. He realises he doesn't have the size/charisma/X-Factor to break into the main-event, and his in-ring work --his base level-- is better than most people when they're trying really hard. So you can't blame them for keeping healthy and getting paid. It's not like they'd get into a main event if they tried their very best at promos for a year...not unless The Royal Rumble counts as a main-event...

I just wish Christian was a little thicker --he's SO thin-- because if he had the girth I reckon Vince wouldn't have released him and he'd've made a short world title run by now... He's great in the ring and consistently over. I still think he will be champ some day...whenever Edge and Christian finally enter a programme together.

i think they could have a brilliant feud with edge and christian the crowd would love it i think. i could only imagine the crowd reaction if christian won money in the bank and cashed it in on edge if he beats jericho at wrestlmania

jaykhunter

jaykhunter wrote: »

I reckon he's kinda like Jericho - who really excels when wrestling a main-event calibre wrestler, but only has OK matches with OK talent.

:eek::eek::eek:
Jericho is (imo) the best worker in the E today. His promo's are brilliant every time and he gets insane heat from the crowd. Yeah hes had some bad matches with midcarders but I think thats through no fault of his own.

Jaykhunter wrote:

I love the unsung mid-carders, but they do lack qualities in which WWE need for 99% of wrestlers to be a main-eventer

Agreed, but only with some mid-carders, such as Bourne. I think I've heard him talk twice in the whole time he's been in WWE.

Jaykhunter wrote:

I just wish Christian was a little thicker --he's SO thin because if he had the girth I reckon Vince wouldn't have released him and he'd've made a short world title run by now

I think Vince has started to cop on in the last year or so in regards to size.
CM Punk and Kofi are getting pushed in the last while and Bryan is to be pushed too. I think Christian has the unique ability to make anyone look good in the ring, so thats a great quality to have when wrestling Batista and the likes.

sky88 wrote:

i could only imagine the crowd reaction if christian won money in the bank and cashed it in on edge if he beats jericho at wrestlemania

Jesus that'd only be great if he cashed it in on Jericho. I think Edge is supposed to be this sort of tweener, but he's over with the fans so that'd give Christian major heat.

Fozzy

It's not really any great mystery why some guys didn't make it. It's because the promoter didn't want to push them, whether it be due to their look, their lack of in-ring skills, their lack of charisma, their behaviour or sometimes just because the promoter just doesn't like the wrestler for whatever reason

I think that that last thing is Christian's problem, Vince just doesn't see him as a star and no amount of hard work or fan support is going to change that

rossie1977

Deleted User wrote: »

I think Vince has started to cop on in the last year or so in regards to size.CM Punk and Kofi are getting pushed in the last while and Bryan is to be pushed too.

vince hasn't changed, he will always push the guy that he feels needs to be pushed, michaels, bret hart, steamboat, mysterio, jericho, none of these guys were big

fact remains as far as tv pro-wrestling goes size sells, its been that way for years before vince start promoting, ernie ladd, andre the giant, billy graham, big john studd, hulk hogan, gorilla monsoon all big stars in 70s not because of their amazing technical ability but because size sells; bruno sammartino while not a tall man was as wide as a house, if bruno had been 175 instead of 275 i doubt he would have been a fraction as popular

I think Christian has the unique ability to make anyone look good in the ring, so thats a great quality to have when wrestling Batista and the likes.

i don't get the christian love from the iwc, on another forum i nearly pissed myself reading when a couple of guys were talking about christians match with regal and how christian carried regal to a decent effort, christian made regal look good according to them :rolleyes: ffs regal is a much better worker than christian is.

i cannot remember one singles match involving christian where i went, "wow", he has had plenty of good matches but nothing like those of flair, michaels, bret, benoit, jericho, for me he is on the same level as matt hardy

its not surprising the most famous matches involving christian had edge and jeff hardy taking all the bumps

Rjd2

Fair enough, but personally I reckon since he returned to the E last year he has been one of the most consistent workers on the roster. I admit he hasn't had a five star match like those you named, but really how many guys do?
Check out his work with the likes of Regal, Ryder, Jericho and especially Swagger since he returned if you are still doubtful.

JP Liz V1

starviewadams wrote: »

I'm 95% sure that Christian will never reach the top in the WWE either,just something mid-carder-ish about him that he'll struggle to shake off.

Looks like his only hope is to start lifting weights with Triple H!!

I really hope your wrong about Christian.

He can back to the WWE from TNA surely he has get a push I think this is the year for him to finally reach the top

Reganio 2

Just a point on Shelton Benjamin not making it to the top. Cody Rhodes did an online chat recently and when asked who was the worst wrestler he said Shelton Benjamin which surprised me a lot. Here's exactly what he said

Shelton Benjamin. Shelton is one of the better amateur wrestlers -- he was an All-American. But in the WWE, I'd say Shelton is the worst.

I wonder if maybe a lot of WWE lads feel the same way.

jaykhunter

Reganio 2 wrote: »

Just a point on Shelton Benjamin not making it to the top. Cody Rhodes did an online chat recently and when asked who was the worst wrestler he said Shelton Benjamin which surprised me a lot. Here's exactly what he said

I wonder if maybe a lot of WWE lads feel the same way.

That's interesting. I'm sure he means "from a sports-entertainment PoV" i.e. exciting signature moves, promo skills, gimmick rather than in-ring work, which is very sound.

geeky

On Shelton, I heard one story that, around the time he was seriously pushed with wins over HHH, Vince sat down with the merchandise team to find out how many shirts he'd sold. The grand total for the month in question was two. Deadly serious. Boom. Push over. That's a wrestling story, so it comes with the usual caveats!

One person who I always thought should have gone further in the WWE is Christian. He's always had a good look, is wayyyyy over and can work good matches. Is it the politics of it? I know the TNA move killed off any chance of being a main-eventer for some time, but I don't know why he wasn't at the top beforehand.

Rjd2

Christian kills the Internet myth that Smackdown is the Holy Grail for those who aren’t Vince’s chosen few. He was hot on Raw before he went to SD and he just kept losing momentum until he fled.

The problem Christian had was obvious Vince just saw no star value in him; theirs a rumor that Vince reckoned that Christian had one of the worst head pictures in the business. That stigma won’t go away and another problem Christian has is that his reign coincided with ECW’s worst ever ratings.

I personally believe the rubbish ratings was due to Vince continuing to pillage it every draft, but heh others will probably use it as an excuse to claim that he can’t draw.

rossie1977

geeky wrote: »

One person who I always thought should have gone further in the WWE is Christian. He's always had a good look.

i dunno, christian to me never had the look, thats one of the reasons he was never pushed as strong, when i met him in belfast there a few months back i couldn't believe how small the guy was in person, he is about 6ft but can't be more than 180-190lb and his skin is a dark yellow colour you would never take the guy for a wrestler if you didn't know who he was, john morrison was standing beside him, now he has a great look and is bigger in person than he looks on tv

geeky

rossie1977 wrote: »

i dunno, christian to me never had the look, thats one of the reasons he was never pushed as strong, when i met him in belfast there a few months back i couldn't believe how small the guy was in person, he is about 6ft but can't be more than 180-190lb and his skin is a dark yellow colour you would never take the guy for a wrestler if you didn't know who he was, john morrison was standing beside him, now he has a great look and is bigger in person than he looks on tv

True, he's a good bit leaner than the guys Vince McMahon usually pushes. Then again, Randy Orton is very thin-looking for someone as cut as he is.

McMahon may have a rep for liking big muscle guys but, as posters have said above, he pushes what works. Christian is demonstrably over with the crowd at all ages, and WWE are seriously short of top-level faces with a few years left in them. AFAIK he's at 35 now, so probably a bit too old, but perhaps there's still a couple of years for him when 'taker, Mysterio, and Michaels pack it in - which can't be far away.