Pension levy for junior doctors....and Gardaí

Jane5

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0312/1224266106789.html

The above link is interesting. Very interesting.

Basically, rank and file gardaí have taken the Finance Minister to court for imposing the pension levy on their total income (ie: basic salary plus MANDATORY overtime) but only basing their pension on their basic salary.

The exact same thing is happening to NCHDs. We pay, in some cases, massive sums towards the pension levy, yet our final pension is based on the 30-40k per year basic salary that the majority of NCHDs are drawing.

Why aren't the IMO doing anything about this? Why haven't they addressed this gross injustice?

I'm happy to:
a) pay the pension levy based on my basic income that my pension entitlements will be calculated on.

b) pay the pension levy on my overtime and basic and receive a corresponding pension.

But not both. So are the IMO going to do something about this? :mad:

Jane5

I should make the point for all non NCHDs reading this, that our overtime is MANDATORY, it is worded that way in our contracts, and it is unspecified amounts due to the emergency and on call nature of the work. We have no say in how much or how little we do.

RobFowl

Bit of cheeky answer but have you asked the IMO to do that ?

Jane5

Hey Rf,
Not cheeky question at all. I dropped my union membership as they are so spineless and useless, hence they won't take suggestions from me as I am not a member.
I do think unions should be in some way proactive about things, and not wait for members of the professions they represent to get screwed over before they take some sort of action.
I do also think that the legion of us masochistic NCHDs currently in Ireland should get together and start objecting to practices like this. The RCPI yearly training fees are no longer covered by the training grant-and no-one has said ANYTHING. We are supposed to-what? Pay 2-3k a year out of our own pockets for the privilege of doing our jobs? Why aren't NCHDs up in arms?

RobFowl

I and a few other here did our NCHD jobs in the bad old days of unapid overtime, no training/teaching and very poor conditions.

It does seem that things ae going back to that rather than getting better.
If DrZhivago is about he'd be able to give you good advice.

FWIT I'd rejoin and lobby them about your grievances and get your friends and colleagues to do the same.

The IMO is supposed to be representitive and express and push members concerns and wishes.

They are far from perfect (I'm a GP and we have huge issues at present) but they are the only show in town.

WalterMitty

Could the government countersue for the 250k it spends on every medical student during their FREE training?????

2Scoops

WalterMitty wrote: »

Could the government countersue for the 250k it spends on every medical student during their FREE training?????

I'd love to know where you got that figure from. And the answer is yes, as long as it sues every other 'free' college course in the country as well. And as long as the entire country can countercountersue back for taxes taken in the name of educating a viable workforce. Send everyone back to Hedge Schools, I say! :pac:

2Scoops

RobFowl wrote: »

Bit of cheeky answer but have you asked the IMO to do that ?

I imagine they're watching and waiting for the outcome with the Gardaí.

Prime Mover

WalterMitty wrote: »

Could the government countersue for the 250k it spends on every medical student during their FREE training?????

A counterclaim should be actionable as a standalone case, not just as a mechanism to try to reduce damages you have to pay. Why would the government be suing for its money back from doctors and not from every other degree holder?

I think it is important for NCHDs to clear this up as pensions will be based on career salary averages not final salary in the future. If overtime is not included in the pension calculations, they shouldn't be levied on overtime.

dissed doc

WalterMitty wrote: »

Could the government countersue for the 250k it spends on every medical student during their FREE training?????

RCSI is not free training. With regards to the publicly funded universities, they receive income from general taxation, i.e., it is paid for by taxation of the country as a whole to supply an adequate amount of trained medical staff. If they don't want to pay for it, and don't want medical care, I am sure they think they will be fine getting it from elsewhere.

*Except*, it has become so unattractive to work in these continually deteriorating professional and financial conditions, that hospitals are struggling to find staff, despite advertising everywhere at home and abroad.

beeno67

Jane5 wrote: »

We pay, in some cases, massive sums towards the pension levy, yet our final pension is based on the 30-40k per year basic salary that the majority of NCHDs are drawing.

Not quite true. Your pension is based on your final salary, about 40 years after you start working (assuming you continue to work in hospitals). So for example if you become a consultant your final salary will be €170,000 at current rates and your pension will be €85,000 a year. How much do you think is a fair amount to invest to earn a pension of €85,000 a year?

According to the pensions board, a woman aged 25 years old would have to invest €28,600 a year for 40 years to get a pension of €85k. Obviously this does not take into account the extra you would have to invest to get the additional lump sum of €255,000 that you also get on retirement. Do you really feel hard done by?

dissed doc

beeno67 wrote: »

Not quite true. Your pension is based on your final salary, about 40 years after you start working (assuming you continue to work in hospitals). So for example if you become a consultant your final salary will be €170,000 at current rates and your pension will be €85,000 a year. How much do you think is a fair amount to invest to earn a pension of €85,000 a year?

According to the pensions board, a woman aged 25 years old would have to invest €28,600 a year for 40 years to get a pension of €85k. Obviously this does not take into account the extra you would have to invest to get the additional lump sum of €255,000 that you also get on retirement. Do you really feel hard done by?

It's nothing to do with feeling hard done by. It's about getting a return on payments made into the pension system.

A huge amount of salary deductions are being made currently by NCHDs for pensions which will never be included as part of final pension payments.

You do a job, you get paid for it. You make a pension payment in your salary (mandatory state pension, which you cannot control), you should get the full return from it.

No whining about rights, being hard done by, or x, y, z personal or moral concern. If the payments are not included in final pension calculations, we should not be forced to make those payments from our salary.

It's obvious anyway by now that whatever pension agreements are in place now will be thrown out the window by the time it comes to retire. All state pensions for NCHDs will be entirely worthless in 30 years time.

beeno67

dissed doc wrote: »

It's nothing to do with feeling hard done by. It's about getting a return on payments made into the pension system.

A huge amount of salary deductions are being made currently by NCHDs for pensions which will never be included as part of final pension payments.

You do a job, you get paid for it. You make a pension payment in your salary (mandatory state pension, which you cannot control), you should get the full return from it.

No whining about rights, being hard done by, or x, y, z personal or moral concern. If the payments are not included in final pension calculations, we should not be forced to make those payments from our salary.

It's obvious anyway by now that whatever pension agreements are in place now will be thrown out the window by the time it comes to retire. All state pensions for NCHDs will be entirely worthless in 30 years time.

But you are looking at it very simply. NCHDs do not pay enough at present to cover the cost of their pensions.

A much simpler system for the future is to make pension contributions voluntary for doctors and abolish notional years and buying back years. That should keep everyone happy.

dissed doc

beeno67 wrote: »

But you are looking at it very simply. NCHDs do not pay enough at present to cover the cost of their pensions.

A much simpler system for the future is to make pension contributions voluntary for doctors and abolish notional years and buying back years. That should keep everyone happy.

I agree, except the HSE and government have been making the exact opposite move. The ~10% pension levy being paid (from salary and overtime) doesn't go anywhere near funding our pensions, and is being diverted to other state business. However, even so, we will continue to be forced to pay it, along with a huge increase in payments to the actual pension.

As I have said many times before, as public service becomes immensely unattractive to doctors from abroad and increasinly from Ireland, with no benefits to working in the state system, it will be a pretty nasty place to work anyway, and I have no intention of paying 20-25% of my income to some state solidaridy tax along with another 20% to fund a pension I will never see unless I continue with state employment until the age of 75. But that's another matter.

WalterMitty

dissed doc wrote: »

I agree, except the HSE and government have been making the exact opposite move. The ~10% pension levy being paid (from salary and overtime) doesn't go anywhere near funding our pensions, and is being diverted to other state business. However, even so, we will continue to be forced to pay it, along with a huge increase in payments to the actual pension.

As I have said many times before, as public service becomes immensely unattractive to doctors from abroad and increasinly from Ireland, with no benefits to working in the state system, it will be a pretty nasty place to work anyway, and I have no intention of paying 20-25% of my income to some state solidaridy tax along with another 20% to fund a pension I will never see unless I continue with state employment until the age of 75. But that's another matter.

Well go to uk or germany and get half the salary that doctors get here and oay much more taxes too.

RobFowl

WalterMitty wrote: »

Well go to uk or germany and get half the salary that doctors get here and oay much more taxes too.

Gp's in the UK earn much the same as here (£106k average but up to 3-400k) and they have much better support structures. Consultants do earn less there but have better working conditions.

Germany has severe problems retaining doctors due to the pay rates.

dissed doc

WalterMitty wrote: »

Well go to uk or germany and get half the salary that doctors get here and oay much more taxes too.

Not sure where this idea ever came from.

Average consultant salaries in the UK are around UK£110k with bog standard NHS jobs, but up to UK£200k with experience and in private sector multiples of that. Usual net income for a consultant in the UK is around £5k/month, taxes are considerably less than Ireland.

In Germany, average Leitender Oberartz salary is around €120k/year. Income taxes are also less than Ireland, although not as much less as the UK. Still, it averages around €5k/month. Junior doctors get around €2500/month on EWTD contracts. This is around the exact same as a 56hr week in Ireland for an SHO.

In ireland, new consultants in the public sector were on salaries of €170k, but this translates to a net income of ~ €6000/month since January 2010.

However, the pensions and permanency of consultants in UK and Germany are worth considerably more than in Ireland, where contracts and agreed salaries have been breached constantly for the past 18 months. There are single figures of new substantive consultants, and locum posts are paid at €135k - almost exactly what the net salary is in Germany.

I am already gone from Ireland FYI - as have many of my colleagues. A reality check is needed for people every now and then, so that is what I am giving you. I'd rather take UK£5k in the UK, or €5k in Germany and the standard of living that would afford me, versus €5k in Ireland with half the purchasing power and professional quality of life. I am one of many who has left in the past year.

nesf

dissed doc wrote: »

Income taxes are also less than Ireland, although not as much less as the UK.

German Income tax is higher than ours topping out at 47.25% counting the "Solidarity" charge.

dissed doc

nesf wrote: »

German Income tax is higher than ours topping out at 47.25% counting the "Solidarity" charge.

No you are quite incorrect. Depends on whether you are paying income tax vs wage tax in Germany. That German rate includes 12-14% health insurance.

Net tax rate on €135k as a public sector consultant in Ireland is 52.6% (Net income: €5300/month). You have no health insurance in Ireland even with this amount of taxation. http://taxcalc.eu/

Net tax rate on €120k as public sector oberartz in Germany is 46.9% giving a net monthly income of €5305. However, this includes 14% tax directly to support you and your families health insurance. http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

Be my guest to either continue believing some magical overpaid doctors in Ireland. I've already left as I could see the writing on the wall over 18 months ago. This is the reality. Any doctor in ireland would be better off coming to Germany to work as they will have a much higher standard of living at that salary than they will in Ireland. It's likely you are only looking at direct "income" taxes in Ireland; public sector taxes can be almost 100% higher with the levies that have been added. It's lower tax in Ireland only for private sector workers.

Dr Galen

WalterMitty wrote: »

Well go to uk or germany and get half the salary that doctors get here and oay much more taxes too.

Either add someting constructive to the debate or don't post.

I'll leave the choice with you

Cheers

MM

beeno67

dissed doc wrote: »

I agree, except the HSE and government have been making the exact opposite move. The ~10% pension levy being paid (from salary and overtime) doesn't go anywhere near funding our pensions, and is being diverted to other state business. However, even so, we will continue to be forced to pay it, along with a huge increase in payments to the actual pension.

I am unsure what point you are making. You do not pay 10% pension levy although your total pension contribution may be 10%.

As I said before this is not enough to cover the pension. You should be paying about €30,000 a year to adequately fund your pension. ie if it was a private pension this is the amount you would have to invest every year (obviously increasing every year with inflation) Are you paying that much? Of course you are not. That means other tax payers are paying extra tax to fund your pension, yet you believe you should contribute even less and other tax payers should contribute more. Why?

nesf

dissed doc wrote: »

No you are quite incorrect. Depends on whether you are paying income tax vs wage tax in Germany. That German rate includes 12-14% health insurance.

Net tax rate on €135k as a public sector consultant in Ireland is 52.6% (Net income: €5300/month). You have no health insurance in Ireland even with this amount of taxation. http://taxcalc.eu/

Net tax rate on €120k as public sector oberartz in Germany is 46.9% giving a net monthly income of €5305. However, this includes 14% tax directly to support you and your families health insurance. http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

Be my guest to either continue believing some magical overpaid doctors in Ireland. I've already left as I could see the writing on the wall over 18 months ago. This is the reality. Any doctor in ireland would be better off coming to Germany to work as they will have a much higher standard of living at that salary than they will in Ireland. It's likely you are only looking at direct "income" taxes in Ireland; public sector taxes can be almost 100% higher with the levies that have been added. It's lower tax in Ireland only for private sector workers.

Ah, you're talking about rate including pension levies etc, I thought you were talking about the base income tax rates.

dissed doc

beeno67 wrote: »

I am unsure what point you are making. You do not pay 10% pension levy although your total pension contribution may be 10%.

As I said before this is not enough to cover the pension. You should be paying about €30,000 a year to adequately fund your pension. ie if it was a private pension this is the amount you would have to invest every year (obviously increasing every year with inflation) Are you paying that much? Of course you are not. That means other tax payers are paying extra tax to fund your pension, yet you believe you should contribute even less and other tax payers should contribute more. Why?

It's usually the case in the developed world that the lower salaries offered in the public sector are compensated with increased job security, pension, etc.,. If you scrap all of that (and it's already been scrapped), you get nobody to work in that system. The end result of this is privatisation of the whole health service. It's not the equitable fair system of europe Ireland is following, but the US model 100%.

At the moment, that consultant on €135k in Ireland pays €16k/year towards the pension. If you decide to ramp up those payments, you can be assured they will no longer see any benefit in working in state employment. This isn't a he said she said, I'm right, you're wrong situation, but an evolution of the services based on the policies taken by the government over the last 18 months. Taxpayers are making up the difference because they want doctors to treat them and not pay €500 for an x ray? Don't they? Apparently you don't!

bored and fussy

dissed doc wrote: »

It's nothing to do with feeling hard done by. It's about getting a return on payments made into the pension system.

A huge amount of salary deductions are being made currently by NCHDs for pensions which will never be included as part of final pension payments.

You do a job, you get paid for it. You make a pension payment in your salary (mandatory state pension, which you cannot control), you should get the full return from it.

No whining about rights, being hard done by, or x, y, z personal or moral concern. If the payments are not included in final pension calculations, we should not be forced to make those payments from our salary.

It's obvious anyway by now that whatever pension agreements are in place now will be thrown out the window by the time it comes to retire. All state pensions for NCHDs will be entirely worthless in 30 years time.

I dont know the rights or wrongs about your pension entitelments or about the pension levy for that matter, but what really annoys me is when someone assumes everyone knows what you mean when you use abrieviations for example what does NCHDs mean i imagine it is something to do with the medical profession. This is so annoying i hear people on radio and television doing the same.

Please explain and then i will be able to understand what this pension matter is all about.

RobFowl

bored and fussy wrote: »

I dont know the rights or wrongs about your pension entitelments or about the pension levy for that matter, but what really annoys me is when someone assumes everyone knows what you mean when you use abrieviations for example what does NCHDs mean i imagine it is something to do with the medical profession. This is so annoying i hear people on radio and television doing the same.

Please explain and then i will be able to understand what this pension matter is all about.

Non Consultant Hospital Doctors, it's a fairly standard abrieviation in the Irish media.
Without being rude try a google search ! the top 3 results are relevant.....

bored and fussy

RobFowl wrote: »

Non Consultant Hospital Doctors, it's a fairly standard abrieviation in the Irish media.
Without being rude try a google search ! the top 3 results are relevant.....

Thank you, i didn't think of doing a google search (silly)

I am not, of the medical profession as you more than likely have guessed.

But even if the full wording was used just once and then abrieviations i would find that acceptable.

However back to the subject i will now study this matter further. Thanks:)

drzhivago

RobFowl wrote: »

Non Consultant Hospital Doctors, it's a fairly standard abrieviation in the Irish media.
Without being rude try a google search ! the top 3 results are relevant.....

Must add here Fowler taht this means any doctor working ina hospital who is not a consultant so for fellas like you and me who qualified in early 1990's greying with softening bellies and multiple kids it does not mean only a person who is 22-26 years of age

For interest there seems to be a misunderstanding taht all who remain in hospitals will at some stage become a consultant well at moment there are 2,400 consultants and 5000 NCHDs or Junior doctors as the other term is

Plan is to drop NCDH posts to 2,200 and increase consultanst to 3,600 so 1400 additional consultant jobs over 10 years with 2,600 junior jobs to go

So many will retire as a junior doc on an SHO salary so the person talking about funding 30,000 a year to fund the pension doesnt knwo what they are talking about

the person retiring as an SHO this year will retire on €51,000, max pension is 25,500 despite the fact taht they have effectively worked two jobs for the last 30 years with 80 hour weeks that does not count for pension unlike in many other employments


so apart from having no job security--ALL NCHDS are on temporary contracts

Apart from having very poor promotional prospects

And apart from the long hours with still 10-15 hours per week worked unpaid, all is really rosy right now

drzhivago

beeno67 wrote: »

Not quite true. Your pension is based on your final salary, about 40 years after you start working (assuming you continue to work in hospitals). So for example if you become a consultant your final salary will be €170,000 at current rates and your pension will be €85,000 a year. How much do you think is a fair amount to invest to earn a pension of €85,000 a year?

According to the pensions board, a woman aged 25 years old would have to invest €28,600 a year for 40 years to get a pension of €85k. Obviously this does not take into account the extra you would have to invest to get the additional lump sum of €255,000 that you also get on retirement. Do you really feel hard done by?

You make a big assumption here that all doctors working in hospitals will retire as consultants, will all civil servants retire as principal officers or secretary generals

In a wrod no they wont so why pick the highest salary to say that is what their pension will be based on

There are a growing number of docs who now have permanent contracts as SHOS ie that will retire as SHOS on an SHO salary

drzhivago

Jane5 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0312/1224266106789.html

The above link is interesting. Very interesting.

Basically, rank and file gardaí have taken the Finance Minister to court for imposing the pension levy on their total income (ie: basic salary plus MANDATORY overtime) but only basing their pension on their basic salary.

The exact same thing is happening to NCHDs. We pay, in some cases, massive sums towards the pension levy, yet our final pension is based on the 30-40k per year basic salary that the majority of NCHDs are drawing.

Why aren't the IMO doing anything about this? Why haven't they addressed this gross injustice?

I'm happy to:
a) pay the pension levy based on my basic income that my pension entitlements will be calculated on.

b) pay the pension levy on my overtime and basic and receive a corresponding pension.

But not both. So are the IMO going to do something about this? :mad:

Ask not what the IMO can do for you but what you can do for the IMO


as one involved in this as hospital rep and IMO rep for long time if you have an issue uyou are passionate about you are the best person to try and solve this with backing of IMO

Go to the AGM in April

Get yourself co-opted onto committee, tell them this is your issue and then use the resources to solve it

When I was on the inside I was amazed at how much time is spent sorting out bullying issues around the country and threats of firing when big issues like you mention slip by

drzhivago

Jane5 wrote: »

Hey Rf,
Not cheeky question at all. I dropped my union membership as they are so spineless and useless, hence they won't take suggestions from me as I am not a member.
I do think unions should be in some way proactive about things, and not wait for members of the professions they represent to get screwed over before they take some sort of action.
I do also think that the legion of us masochistic NCHDs currently in Ireland should get together and start objecting to practices like this. The RCPI yearly training fees are no longer covered by the training grant-and no-one has said ANYTHING. We are supposed to-what? Pay 2-3k a year out of our own pockets for the privilege of doing our jobs? Why aren't NCHDs up in arms?

Harsh harsh and harsh

JAne we have had many discussions before about this, the spineless ones are your colleagues, i and fowl and our age threatened strike to get paid overtime and get paid hours beyond 65

What has this generation of NCHDs done

Little really, they need to get together and not just bitch at each other and the IMO

You all are the IMO for good and for bad

drzhivago

beeno67 wrote: »

I am unsure what point you are making. You do not pay 10% pension levy although your total pension contribution may be 10%.

As I said before this is not enough to cover the pension. You should be paying about €30,000 a year to adequately fund your pension. ie if it was a private pension this is the amount you would have to invest every year (obviously increasing every year with inflation) Are you paying that much? Of course you are not. That means other tax payers are paying extra tax to fund your pension, yet you believe you should contribute even less and other tax payers should contribute more. Why?

Exaggeration and irrelevant

look t the numbers and predict how many current junior doctors will become consultants at all
Most will become GPs because they do not have an option at promotion

dissed doc

drzhivago wrote: »

Exaggeration and irrelevant

look t the numbers and predict how many current junior doctors will become consultants at all
Most will become GPs because they do not have an option at promotion

it's roughly:

10% of medical students will become a consultant or at least get to complete specialist training of some sort.

50% become GPs (either directly or after indirect medical/surgical training)

~ 30% stay as junior doctors

~ 20% are no longer practicing medicine within 10 years of graduating.


This was from a survey I read a few years ago, was in the IMT AFAIR. There is no point is bitching to people that services will collapse, because the culture in Ireland is to be mediocre, accept mediocrity and not actually attempt to improve things. It's a handout welfare culture where most people do not pay for healthcare (taxation or privately), so even if there are only 4 consultants in the whole country, it's not like there will be new jobs created to improve services; just more complaining to Joe Duffy.

Solution as always, whether you realise it sooner or later: leave Ireland or leave medicine.

Traumadoc

It will be very interesting what happens in the next few years.
At the moment there is a shortage of junior docs,
HSE will use this as an excuse to close hospitals such as Nenagh, Kilkenny etc. as they will be under staffed and declared "unsafe".

The HSE has to do this quickly as with the graduate entry medical schools increase in graduates will be huge, competition for 2600 jobs with 800 graduates every year means that there will be unemployment.
It will be back to the bad old days where competition will cause junior doctors to work extra hours pro bono to impress the boss.

Jane5

Traumadoc wrote: »

It will be very interesting what happens in the next few years.
At the moment there is a shortage of junior docs,
HSE will use this as an excuse to close hospitals such as Nenagh, Kilkenny etc. as they will be under staffed and declared "unsafe".

The HSE has to do this quickly as with the graduate entry medical schools increase in graduates will be huge, competition for 2600 jobs with 800 graduates every year means that there will be unemployment.
It will be back to the bad old days where competition will cause junior doctors to work extra hours pro bono to impress the boss.

Well if the junior doctors do this, then they deserve everything they get and worse besides. Working for free, and accepting crap conditions to look good is cretinous. I have been an NCHD for five going on six years, and never, ever have I worked one hour for free that I know of. Once or twice a hospital docked my hours, once I had to request a copy of my hours worked under the FOI Act, and once memorably I had to resort to a solicitors letter threatening small claims court on behalf of several of us, but I was always paid in full.

NCHDs-it is ILLEGAL for your employer not to pay you for hours worked. If you have not been paid as per your contractual agreement-which I've no doubt the IMO will be sending us copies of soon? no? then you are entitled to sue for your money back. It NEVER comes to this, as hospitals realise this is more expensive, and they pay you as soon as your lawyer writes the letter.

It does not affect relations between you and your consultant-most are aware that they are supervising your clinical duties and comptency and training, and not involved in your payroll issues. In fact, any consultant that was aware of my actions usually heartily approved.

Your consultant, in all probability, wants NCHDs on his/her team who have some balls (I'm not referring to the HPAT here!) and stand up for themselves as well as for his/her service. I doubt there are many consultants out there who admire invertebrate twerps who take any crap that is slung at them from any direction.

Stand up for yourselves. A solicitor in employment law is the best person to get to write the letter. It usually costs relatively little compared to what you are owed! If enough people do this, the HSE might start to think twice about screwing their employees!

drzhivago

Jane5 wrote: »

Well if the junior doctors do this, then they deserve everything they get and worse besides. Working for free, and accepting crap conditions to look good is cretinous. I have been an NCHD for five going on six years, and never, ever have I worked one hour for free that I know of. Once or twice a hospital docked my hours, once I had to request a copy of my hours worked under the FOI Act, and once memorably I had to resort to a solicitors letter threatening small claims court on behalf of several of us, but I was always paid in full.

NCHDs-it is ILLEGAL for your employer not to pay you for hours worked. If you have not been paid as per your contractual agreement-which I've no doubt the IMO will be sending us copies of soon? no? then you are entitled to sue for your money back. It NEVER comes to this, as hospitals realise this is more expensive, and they pay you as soon as your lawyer writes the letter.

It does not affect relations between you and your consultant-most are aware that they are supervising your clinical duties and comptency and training, and not involved in your payroll issues. In fact, any consultant that was aware of my actions usually heartily approved.

Your consultant, in all probability, wants NCHDs on his/her team who have some balls (I'm not referring to the HPAT here!) and stand up for themselves as well as for his/her service. I doubt there are many consultants out there who admire invertebrate twerps who take any crap that is slung at them from any direction.

Stand up for yourselves. A solicitor in employment law is the best person to get to write the letter. It usually costs relatively little compared to what you are owed! If enough people do this, the HSE might start to think twice about screwing their employees!

Jane agree completely with most of the above BUT wouldnt be advocating lawyers as it can be expensive

You can download a complaint from from

www.lrc.ie

regarding PAyment of wages

When you claim 60 hours validly worked and get paid for 50, if hospital ha snot queried this, accepted the hours and then just doesn't pay it is a breech of teh Payment of Wages Act

The LRC LAbour Relations Commission investigates these things and then if decides to have a hearing it is non adversarial so employee stands up and says I worked, hospital tries to give explanation but the arrangement is not meant to have lawyers etc there it is for average worker to be able to state his case

I have prepared many such forms in past and some people were awarded significant sums owed and compensation with fine for hospital

If this is widespread practice in a hospital would encourage all NCHDS to do this

Technically They will all be paid what owed, hospital may be fined and if LRC find that an individual HR manager or some like has decided that this was hospital policy to do this they can be PERSONALLY fined up to €1270 for every breech

They will soon start to pay

But as you say needs BALLS among your colleagues