Smal Has Big Hopes for Buckley

athtrasna

Saw this in the Irish Times this morning and thought it's definitely something people on here have opinions on!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0312/1224266106097.html

Ciaran-Irl

I think we rugby fans have been a bit harsh on him at times.

He has been done a disservice by Munster not having a specialist prop coach. That seems like a very shortsighted decision when you think how much money has been ploughed into Wian DuPreez and Brugnaut, which would not have been required if a scrum coach had been in place for Tony McGahan's reign.

I read an interview somewhere where Tim Ryan said he left partly because he wanted coaching in France, as very little was available to him in Munster. The likes of Archer etc would develop faster with more in vestment in their coaching.

buck65

Ciaran you are right in some respects, I don't think Munster ploughed too much into du Preez or Brugnaut though. du Preez was a 3 month signing that hardly cost the earth and Brugnaut, clubless, probably came for a standard contract i.e not international.
You are right that Munster do need a specialist scrum coach and I would hope to see that rectified soon. With Marcus and Hayes out for October and some of November it was prudent that Munster signed a specialist Loose head - du Preez.
Buckley is primarily a tighthead and in recent weeks has done well enough in the scrum and looked really good in the loose. However Buckley has had enough mares in the scrum for me not to hail this as a second coming.
Brugnaut can hold his own in the scrum but doesn't add alot around the park so is hardly the answer. Hayes is finished even at club level I think after this season and Horan is entering the final phase of his career too. I would like to see the likes of Archer progress but in the short term Munster do need a tight head alternative to Buckley, especially if Tony does make the step up to Irish no 3.
I do think we need a loose head as well, Marcus needs competition.
The British/ Irish cup by all accounts have given the fringe players some great exposure to competitive rugby so hopefully next year we may see some Munster A's feature for us in the ML.
One thing for sure , without Wian du Preez we would not have beaten Northampton in Thomond.

athtrasna

It's obviously Buckley day today...the Indo have a feature too

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/emerging-from-the-hayes-2096988.html

and this one

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/best-in-world--buckley-gets-full-backing--to-take-over-from-hayes-2096922.html

buck65

And yet he's on the bench!
Keeps the spotlight off the others I suppose.

Podge_irl

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I think we rugby fans have been a bit harsh on him at times.

I don't. He has been absolutely terrible in the past (to the point where I'm amazed he's even a professional player).

He looks to have improved greatly, but a couple of ML games and 10 minutes against England are not enough to make a proper judgement. Court had him in all manner of trouble not that long ago. The burden of proof is on him at this point as far as I'm concerned and he still has a lot to do to convince me.

buck65

I think it was nearer 20 minutes in Twickenham and he contributed more in that time (in the loose) than the front row did in the previous 60. Actually O Gara hit a maul and a ruck and a few tackles too so it was kind of opposite land there for a while!

Ciaran-Irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't. He has been absolutely terrible in the past (to the point where I'm amazed he's even a professional player).

He looks to have improved greatly, but a couple of ML games and 10 minutes against England are not enough to make a proper judgement. Court had him in all manner of trouble not that long ago. The burden of proof is on him at this point as far as I'm concerned and he still has a lot to do to convince me.

When I say we have been harsh, I'm not saying he has been great or anything. He has been poor many times, and not just in the scrum, I have seen him be pretty lazy in getting to rucks. When I say harsh, I mean I have seen some excessive abuse directed at him, and that isn't needed.

PhatPiggins

buck65 wrote: »

I think it was nearer 20 minutes in Twickenham and he contributed more in that time (in the loose) than the front row did in the previous 60. Actually O Gara hit a maul and a ruck and a few tackles too so it was kind of opposite land there for a while!

Are you daddy Buck(65)ley ? If you're born in 1965 the years fit

buck65

Yes I am Buckley's dad. I was 15 when he was born. I can't get him to tidy his room or anything around the house. He's well able because I saw him with the hoover once.:D

premierstone

buck65 wrote: »

Yes I am Buckley's dad. I was 15 when he was born. I can't get him to tidy his room or anything around the house. He's well able because I saw him with the hoover once.:D

He obviously didnt get the right training when he was younger, maybe he should move??

PhatPiggins

buck65 wrote: »

Yes I am Buckley's dad. I was 15 when he was born. I can't get him to tidy his room or anything around the house. He's well able because I saw him with the hoover once.:D

Seeing as he was probably a foot taller and 3 stone heavier then you when he was 14 I'm not surprised!

Was he scrummaging against the hoover? Bet the hoover won.

athtrasna

ah lads, you're forgetting that Buckley is a converted 2nd Row

premierstone

athtrasna wrote: »

ah lads, you're forgetting that Buckley is a converted 2nd Row

Dont know what your definition of converted is but i suggest he's not quiet there yet!

Brewster

Mr Smal reckons Buckley could become world class! Hmmmm

PhatPiggins

Brewster wrote: »

Mr Smal reckons Buckley could become world class! Hmmmm

Give him 12 months with Smal and he'll either make him an international prop or force him to retire.

Smal is a bloody good coach and doesn't hand out the praise on a whim

giggler1

daddy buckley was actually born in 1959 so ur a few years out there ted mushy has the makings of a great prop but he really needs the investment of a proper coach imo, he played brilliant rugby for the short 20 mins he played in twickenham but unfortunately didnt get much game time since. he also played well in the ML match against the dragons so hopefully its a sign of things to come

Co45

giggler1 wrote: »

daddy buckley was actually born in 1959 so ur a few years out there ted mushy has the makings of a great prop but he really needs the investment of a proper coach imo, he played brilliant rugby for the short 20 mins he played in twickenham but unfortunately didnt get much game time since. he also played well in the ML match against the dragons so hopefully its a sign of things to come

Are you honestly saying that in the 15 years hes been playing rugby hes never had a proper coach?
Hes 28 (or 29?) now. He really needs to start showing something other than the occasional good 20 min cameo. I mean if he cant get ahead of Hayes at provincial and international level at his age then that is worrying.

Otacon

Co45 wrote: »

Are you honestly saying that in the 15 years hes been playing rugby hes never had a proper coach?
Hes 28 (or 29?) now. He really needs to start showing something other than the occasional good 20 min cameo. I mean if he cant get ahead of Hayes at provincial and international level at his age then that is worrying.

I believe both you and I know he was talking about a proper forwards coach

Co45

Otacon wrote: »

I believe both you and I know he was talking about a proper forwards coach

Of course I know that. My point still stands. It's a bit rich to say Munster and Ireland don't have a proper forwards coach.

giggler1

he hasnt been playing front row for the whole time hes played rugby and he hasnt played rugby consistently for 15 yrs either hes been out with serious injury for most of it!! he does tend to come accross as a lazy piece of sh1 t at times but he has shifted a good bit of the extra weight and he is looking a lot fitter and defo playing alot better now so i wouldnt be writing him off just yet like most people tend to do..

Never said ireland dont have a proper forwards coach imo Smals is an unreal coach and he probably is the reason buckley is finally coming good!!
However I do think Munster have a serious lack of forward coaching and if Im being totally honest I wouldnt think much of MGahan either

budhabob

giggler1 wrote: »

However I do think Munster have a serious lack of forward coaching and if Im being totally honest I wouldnt think much of MGahan either

I agree with you on the lack of forwards coaching in Munster alright, its clearly evident for quite a while. I'm not quite sure what to make of McGahan, but something is definitely missing in terms of consistency, and he as coach has to answer for that.

On buckley, I hope he is on an upward curve, we really could do with him being an effective unit that he has the potential to be. If not get rid and bring someone in.

Co45

giggler1 wrote: »

Never said ireland dont have a proper forwards coach imo Smals is an unreal coach and he probably is the reason buckley is finally coming good!!
However I do think Munster have a serious lack of forward coaching and if Im being totally honest I wouldnt think much of MGahan either

Buckley had Jim Williams working with him for 4 years. Hes had Smal working with him for the last 2 years. Fisher is consiered an excellent coach as well. I really dont think the coaching is the problem.
McGahan last season played better rugby than Munster saw under Kidney. The problem is the squad is aging in key positions and replacements need to be brought in.

giggler1

Co45 wrote: »

McGahan last season played better rugby than Munster saw under Kidney.

this is why they lost to leinster twice

[Jackass]

Last season, Munster were by far (untouchable) the best team in Europe for 90% of the season. They peaked v Ospreys and at that peak, it was the best rugby I've ever seen any European side play.

And had it not been for Leinster pulling miracle form out of their arse in Croke Park, Munster would have done the double and been only the second team ever to defend the Heineken Cup and everyone's opinion of McGahan would be very different. It's amazing what one game can do. (Just ask Declan Kidney) Also for the record, they spanked Leinster twice last season, home and away.

Re Buckley, I think he has come on leaps and bounds over the last year, his scrummaging has improved, and he's gotten respectable, but still nowhere near the dominant force you would expect from a man of his size...but props peak late, and I think he can still do a job for us. Seeing as Ross has no game time, Buckley is the next option after Hayes. But from the limited rugby I've seen Ross play for Leinster, I think if he got a consistant run (which I think he deserves ahead of CJ, but possibly not Wright), then he would be an excellent tighthead for Ireland.

If he gets first team rugby at Leinster, I think the 3 crisis is over. But will he?

PhatPiggins

[Jackass] wrote: »

Last season, Munster were by far (untouchable) the best team in Europe for 90% of the season. They peaked v Ospreys and at that peak, it was the best rugby I've ever seen any European side play.

And had it not been for Leinster pulling miracle form out of their arse in Croke Park, Munster would have done the double and been only the second team ever to defend the Heineken Cup and everyone's opinion of McGahan would be very different. It's amazing what one game can do. (Just ask Declan Kidney) Also for the record, they spanked Leinster twice last season, home and away.

Re Buckley, I think he has come on leaps and bounds over the last year, his scrummaging has improved, and he's gotten respectable, but still nowhere near the dominant force you would expect from a man of his size...but props peak late, and I think he can still do a job for us. Seeing as Ross has no game time, Buckley is the next option after Hayes. But from the limited rugby I've seen Ross play for Leinster, I think if he got a consistant run (which I think he deserves ahead of CJ, but possibly not Wright), then he would be an excellent tighthead for Ireland.

If he gets first team rugby at Leinster, I think the 3 crisis is over. But will he?

Seeing as CJ has no hope of a contract extension I'd imagine he'll be neck and neck with Wright for the tighthead spot next seaon. I think Wrights a better player personally.

siltirocker

[Jackass] wrote: »

Last season, Munster were by far (untouchable) the best team in Europe for 90% of the season. They peaked v Ospreys and at that peak, it was the best rugby I've ever seen any European side play.

here here man. Couldn't agree more.

As regards the number 3 jersey. 29 is old and if he can't displace a 36 year old from the provincal jersey (who isn't actually great in the first place), i fail to see the logic in this idea of developing him.

Mike Ross & Jamie Hagan FTW. Essentially the exact same player as each other, so either or really.

Co45

giggler1 wrote: »

this is why they lost to leinster twice

One game. Munster were looking unstoppable before Leinster put in the performance of their lives.

buck65

Munster beat Leinster twice in last years Magners League. I disagree that Munster were far and away the best team in Europe for 90% of the season too. We struggled in the Heineken group stages. Montauban were a dodgy penalty away from beating us in Thomond on opening night. Clermont down to 14 for most of the game probably outclassed us too at home.
We played well against Sale both days true enough.
In the ML Ulster scalped us twice, Connacht beat us in Galway and our form was patchy for a few other games where we were lucky to win , Edinburgh and Scarlets both away come to mind.
Leinster showed us up in Croke Park bigtime. All our frailties became massive fissures (where does he get this stuff?) that day and to be honest it was only a matter of time.
MC Gahan has had a mixed bag. Personally I think he is still tinkering but with such signings as du Preez and de Villiers has showed vision and some guts too. I am certainly happy to give him 2 more years but Munster are certainly not the force of yore.
Look at us this season, we are still living off one good performance against Perpignan. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saints take us. We haven't a hope of winning silverware though this year.

Podge_irl

Smal has Big Hopes for Buckley

Though apparently not big enough to convince Kidney to give him more than 60 seconds against Scotland when the on-field tighthead is massively below standard.

phog

Podge_irl wrote: »

Though apparently not big enough to convince Kidney to give him more than 60 seconds against Scotland when the on-field tighthead is massively below standard.

60 seconds more than the rest of the bench bar ROG and Kearney, does that mean all the others on the bench against Scotland are consigned to the scrap heap?

Co45

phog wrote: »

60 seconds more than the rest of the bench bar ROG and Kearney, does that mean all the others on the bench against Scotland are consigned to the scrap heap?

That means that all the rest aren't trusted by the management which to be honest wouldnt suprise me.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

60 seconds more than the rest of the bench bar ROG and Kearney, does that mean all the others on the bench against Scotland are consigned to the scrap heap?

No, but I'm a little bit tired of meaningless platitudes from the management team at this point. Mind you, no one else on the bench was competing with a 36 year old prop who was struggling in the scrums and practically non-existent elsewhere.

PhatPiggins

Co45 wrote: »

That means that all the rest aren't trusted by the management which to be honest wouldnt suprise me.

No it means that he didn't want a front row on the pitch that would have had Healy as the most experienced player. The game was still in the balance and we could have won dispite playing poorly. Its easy to say after the game the game that Kidney made a mistake, if we'd won we be foucusing on the real problem i.e a horribly misfiring backline.

Podge_irl

I'm sorry, but the backline was far and away the smallest problem from that game. The shockingly poor set piece and the woeful handling were the problems. The backline had no ball to be poor with...

Replacing Hayes on 79 minutes was just a joke and utterly pointless.

Chucky the tree

PhatPiggins wrote: »

No it means that he didn't want a front row on the pitch that would have had Healy as the most experienced player. The game was still in the balance and we could have won dispite playing poorly. Its easy to say after the game the game that Kidney made a mistake, if we'd won we be foucusing on the real problem i.e a horribly misfiring backline.

Was best subbed off against scotland? I don't think he was so Best would have easily been the most experienced.

siltirocker

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Was best subbed off against scotland? I don't think he was so Best would have easily been the most experienced.

I think the poster meant both Best & Hayes to come off (seeing as these were calls needed to be made). Leaving Healy. Although this being said Buckley has about 20 caps anyway (about 4 starts i think) which is more than Healy.

danthefan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

No it means that he didn't want a front row on the pitch that would have had Healy as the most experienced player. The game was still in the balance and we could have won dispite playing poorly. Its easy to say after the game the game that Kidney made a mistake, if we'd won we be foucusing on the real problem i.e a horribly misfiring backline.

You think that was the main problem against Scotland?

PhatPiggins

danthefan wrote: »

You think that was the main problem against Scotland?

Ok fair enough the set peice was dire and probably the greatest factor but we had enough possesion to have won that game. Bar the wings there was little or no penatration,passes weren't going to hand, a glut of forward passes(though we did score a try off one) and even a few behind the reciever and one straight into touch. Murphy going off early didn't help but it seemed to me that they tried to play too much rugby at times.

thomond2006

I would take anything that a coach says about his players with a pinch of salt, they can't come out and criticise/write off a player.

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

I would take anything that a coach says about his players with a pinch of salt, they can't come out and criticise/write off a player.

I just find it odd when a coach is so effuse in his praise, when it's not remotely reflected in gametime. He did need to criticise or write off Buckley, he could have just said nothing.

myflipflops

danthefan wrote: »

I just find it odd when a coach is so effuse in his praise, when it's not remotely reflected in gametime. He did need to criticise or write off Buckley, he could have just said nothing.

I think Smal was implying in his comments that Buckley COULD (has the potential) be great front row forward IF he gets his head down and work at it.

I believe his attitude and work ethic on the training ground have been questioned in the past. This could be Smal publicly putting it up to the player. Maybe Buckley is one to react to comments like this rather than a kick up the a**e.

I doubt a South African forwards coach like that would be needlessly heaping public praise. THere has to be a reason behind it.

danthefan

myflipflops wrote: »

I think Smal was implying in his comments that Buckley COULD (has the potential) be great front row forward IF he gets his head down and work at it.

I believe his attitude and work ethic on the training ground have been questioned in the past. This could be Smal publicly putting it up to the player. Maybe Buckley is one to react to comments like this rather than a kick up the a**e.

I doubt a South African forwards coach like that would be needlessly heaping public praise. THere has to be a reason behind it.

But again, he wasn't given any sort of chance to react to the comments.

bamboozle

one facets of Buckleys game i think is great is his counter rucking, he reminds me of a bear attacking a bee hive in swatting away opposite players, however his scrummaging is dreadful. As far as i know Munster got rid of Paul McCarthy as scrum coach so he's getting no expert advice at club or international level.
If i was kidney, i'd appoint an international scrum coach..(Ollie le Roux or Reggie) and i'd have him do specialist sessions at each province at academy and senior level on a regular basis.
Plus i'd take aside Court, Ross and Buckley and tell them the TH jersey is for them to fight over between now and world cup. Hayes international career is finished with WC looming we need to be clinical.

All other facets of the team are healthy, we've strength in depth and with emergence of Sexton we've 2 outhalves. The final weak link in being a really good team is TH.

Risteard

bamboozle wrote: »

one facets of Buckleys game i think is great is his counter rucking, he reminds me of a bear attacking a bee hive in swatting away opposite players, however his scrummaging is dreadful. As far as i know Munster got rid of Paul McCarthy as scrum coach so he's getting no expert advice at club or international level.
If i was kidney, i'd appoint an international scrum coach..(Ollie le Roux or Reggie) and i'd have him do specialist sessions at each province at academy and senior level on a regular basis.
Plus i'd take aside Court, Ross and Buckley and tell them the TH jersey is for them to fight over between now and world cup. Hayes international career is finished with WC looming we need to be clinical.

All other facets of the team are healthy, we've strength in depth and with emergence of Sexton we've 2 outhalves. The final weak link in being a really good team is TH.

Munster and Ireland have just re-hired him in the last few weeks, so hopefully we'll see a difference.

Co45

bamboozle wrote: »

one facets of Buckleys game i think is great is his counter rucking, he reminds me of a bear attacking a bee hive in swatting away opposite players

I hear this a lot but whenever I see Buckley near a ruck he simply seems to shake the players opposite which is doing sweet **** all but looks good. Where Buckley's main strength lies is ball carrying imo.

2040

Co45 wrote: »

I hear this a lot but whenever I see Buckley near a ruck he simply seems to shake the players opposite which is doing sweet **** all but looks good. Where Buckley's main strength lies is ball carrying imo.

As with nearly everything about Buckley, he oscillates between very good and very bad. Sometimes his clearing of rucks is amazing. It's as if it all depends on his mood or something.

theKramer

Risteard wrote: »

Munster and Ireland have just re-hired him in the last few weeks, so hopefully we'll see a difference.

About f*****g time.....

Cant believe that it took them two years to figure this out. Its a bloody joke. You can see the difference with the Australian team once they got a decent scrum coach in....