Damage To Carbon Chainstay, Dangerous?

furiousox

After talking to bcmf about this and decided to open a thread.

Received this s/h carbon frame today and after inspecting it there is some damage on the chainstay.
Looks like the chainring might have chewed it up somehow?
Anyway I'm wondering if its actually made the frame too dangerous to use or if its superficial enough for repair and not to bad to be concerned about?
Is there anywhere that repairs carbon in the Dublin area I could bring it to for assessment?
I'm really disappointed but I know I should probably err on the side of caution and send it back, what do yis think?

Tackleberry

I'm in a similar position myself with a crashed carbon frame, and 10 months after the crash I've yet to decide whether I want to ride it again - mine has no superficial damage tho, but my considerations and concerns would be largely the same as yours I'd imagine ie will it implode as I'm barreling down a hill at 70kph?

From mechanics I've spoke to, carbon will either crack completely or remain structurally sound, unlike metals that can bend and flex, to that end if the bike can still be ridden relatively hard I'd imagine its good to go.

However...that conclusion isn't enough to quell the worries I'd have about putting the frame under serious pressure, it would defo pop into my mind whenever I'm descending fast, and that's not a healthy mindset.

So the final question for me was simply whether I can afford to allow my fears to win through and buy a new frame, that'll be at least a couple of grand, or should I just deal with the worries and cycle on with my fingers crossed.

Still deciding tbh.

FWIW if my frame was just bought with that scratch I'd hand it straight back, not worth the hassle.

furiousox

It looks like the damage has gone through the top layer of carbon and as you say I think it'll always be at the back of my mind when I'm barrelling down a hill.

lescol

Looks like the chain came off and was sucked between the chainring and chainstay. Most of the damage looks superficial but I'd still have it checked or send it back.



Guess he'd have been better off with one

furiousox

Thanks, I'm going to bring it to Mr Skeff for a look.
Is there anywhere around that repairs damage to carbon like this?

dave2pvd

furiousox, that looks pretty bad. Given how deep the gouging is, I think you can conclude that it has been structurally weakened.

Ride it? Maybe. Who knows? It does look like an easy repair for Calfee or someone like them in Europe. Do Cyfac do repairs?

Not sure a Dog Fang like lescol suggested would have worked. Is your seat-tube round near the FD? If not - no Dog Fangery.

Chips Lovell

Hmmm, those gouges look quite deep. The damage looks to have gone beyond the clearcoat and into the carbon. I wouldn't ride that and I'd send it straight back to the shop. Shame. Looks like a Colnago?

Don't know anywhere in Ireland that repairs CF. In fact the only places I'm aware of are in the US. Anyway, it's not your problem, it's the shop's.

mloc123

?

furiousox

Yup its a C-40, got it for E505 on ebay, currently E2700 on bellatisport (without the damaged carbon!:rolleyes:)

http://www.bellatisport.com/shop/product/523/Colnago_C40_B-Stay.html

Its a pity, 'cos its in good shape otherwise.
Just looking at the auction details, and the seller (in Italy) accepts returns so I think I'll get the ball rolling, I'm disappointed but I suppose you can't take any chances with carbon.

furiousox

mloc123 wrote: »

?

Em.....I think not

blorg

To me that looks superficial. Could have been a dropped chain, these things happen.

I would be wanting a substantial discount if buying but I wouldn't necessarily junk a frame over it.

EDIT: If eBay and not declared I think I would talk to someone here and decide whether worth keeping but if that damage was not declared you should be getting a large % off the seller for that. Very bad form if it wasn't mentioned. Given it is carbon 50% sounds reasonable.

furiousox

Is there an epoxy resin available that's sufficiently strong enough to do an acceptable repair job?

Pigeon Reaper

Surface damage to the clear coat will not weaken it to a dangerous level nor will a few light scratches. What is dangerous is delamination of the fibres. This is what causes the complete and "sudden collapses" we all hear about. So far on the forum everyone has questioned when they see surface damage. Unless it's through a substancial depth past the clear coat so that you actually see fibres damaged I would not worry excessively about it. The most catasrophic failure I've seen in carbon occur in areas of high stress where delamination has occured. This can occur from impact damage or too light a layup which results in excessive flexing. Both of these cause a separation of the fibre from the bonding material such as expoxy etc. This separation of the layers weakens the fibres internally in the layup so at best you may see slight crazing in the surface if you're lucky. If you have ever seen carbon after a failure it is rarely a clean break as normally you have seperated layers which will break in roughly the same area. The same applies to kevlar laminates but these are not yet being used on bicycles. If you don't know the history of the frame do not go on surface clues alone. The internal structure of the laminate is what is important. To be honest I'd probably ride the bike even with the chainstay in that condition since I'm light and it doesn't look to be anything more than scratched clearcoat. If I had bought the frame without that being described I would however be extremely annoyed and check every other part of the frame external and internal.

PS west system epoxy mixed with syringes at 20C should be enough to fix the chainstay. It's probably the strongest one around and doesn't suffer from osmosis in a seawater environment.

furiousox

$hit, just looked at the frame again and there is more damage staring me in the face (another crack) this time at the bottom of the seat tube.
I think the seller knew exactly what they were doing by not mentioning the damage and I've applied for a refund.

bcmf

get the refund and then cut it up and make key rings out of it. I get dibs on the headtube Colnago logo.

Seriously **** luck with that. What happened to the chainring to make that happen?

furiousox

bcmf wrote: »

get the refund and then cut it up and make key rings out of it. I get dibs on the headtube Colnago logo.

Seriously **** luck with that. What happened to the chainring to make that happen?

No idea b, today's the first day I laid eyes on the thing.
That's the risk of ebay I suppose, but I now think the seller knew they had a bit of a lemon their hands 'cos there was no mention of any damage on the auction.
Gonna be a pain in the @ss sending it back to Italy too

uberwolf

furiousox wrote: »

Thanks, I'm going to bring it to Mr Skeff for a look.

with the greatest of respect of Mr Skeff, I can't see what more he's going to be able to tell you. It's not cracked. Could it because it's weakened? Sure, but no layman can say tbh.

furiousox wrote: »

Is there anywhere around that repairs damage to carbon like this?

yes. Saw it somewhere recently linked here. Not cheap, and not in Ireland afair.


It look reasonably deep in one point, but these things are over engineered to hell. If it was my bike and I'd done that to it, I'd be bitter, but get over it I think. Having just bought that, I'd be looking to hand it back

blorg

If they didn't mention it you can do a deal, I'd say get 75%+ back or you will let them pick it up at their expense. If they won't challenge payment with your CC, Paypal or both. Thing is the frame may not be utter junk but you need to decide on that yourself. Thing is they want rid of it and will probably agree to whatever.

If you are not happy send back and insist the seller pays costs.

72hundred

@OP: You're going to have to move REALLY fast to get a refund, both eBay's and PayPal processes for lodging a complaint are prohibitively short periods. I know 2-3 working weeks sounds like loads of time, but the buyer will try delaying tactics and that kind of rubbish so be wary.

macadam

Furiousox,

If the item is not as described you are entitled to a full refund inc p+p on the return, this may take a while, I presume you used paypal.
go to the resolution centre and get the ball rolling.

furiousox

I've opened a case with paypal seeking a refund from the seller.
I've stated the item is damaged and is not as described in the auction.
May try to work out a deal to keep the frame in exchange for a partial refund but I don't think I could ever feel completely at ease on the frame especially at speed.
Sadly the stress of my 14 stone bulk might prove to be too much for colnago's finest to take.
Hey, maybe the seller will refund me and tell me to throw the frame away! :rolleyes:

lescol

Some company such as this http://www.carboncyclerepairs.co.uk/index.php may be worth giving a try, I saw on Bikeradar that these http://www.fibre-lyte.co.uk/index.html quoted £100 to repair a cracked Trek.

blorg

If you don't get anywhere with the seller/Paypal consider doing a chargeback with your credit card. Might be a good idea to look into that now as there may be time limits, etc.

PayPal like you to go through their dispute resolution process first.

ednwireland

get it x-rayed in tallaght ?

bcmf

ednwireland wrote: »

get it x-rayed in tallaght ?

getting it x-rayed wont be a problem. getting someone to look at the x-ray while he is still above the ground, now that is asking for trouble....

furiousox

ednwireland wrote: »

get it x-rayed in tallaght ?

98fm are having a fundraiser out there today, I've donated a letter opener :pac:

Git101

A friend of mine managed to put his back wheel on ar$eways and the tyre wore away some carbon on the chainstay.

He had it repaired by this company in Palmerstown who specialise in carbon fibre (they do great kayak paddles) - think the guys name is Mark.

The repair was done by wrapping carbon fibre around the stay so it wasn't an invisible repair but it's certainly strong.

It might be worth a call to them

bcmf

Git101 wrote: »

A friend of mine managed to put his back wheel on ar$eways and the tyre wore away some carbon on the chainstay.

He had it repaired by this company in Palmerstown who specialise in carbon fibre (they do great kayak paddles) - think the guys name is Mark.

The repair was done by wrapping carbon fibre around the stay so it wasn't an invisible repair but it's certainly strong.

It might be worth a call to them

Great to know. He may just be swamped with Boardsie and there damaged frames.

Caroline_ie

72hundred wrote: »

@OP: You're going to have to move REALLY fast to get a refund, both eBay's and PayPal processes for lodging a complaint are prohibitively short periods. I know 2-3 working weeks sounds like loads of time, but the buyer will try delaying tactics and that kind of rubbish so be wary.

You have 45 days to file a Not as described complaint on PayPal - I would recommend that you get a letter from a bike shop, with letterhead that looks serious saying the bike is too damaged to be used. PayPal will ask you to supply it to them as evidence. As far as I know, if the claim department agrees that the bike is not as described in the listing, you can either get a partial refund and keep the bike OR get a full refund and you need to ship the bike back with proof of postage/recorded delivery.

furiousox

Just got a quote from dhl for shipping the frame back...E140!
The thing only weighs 5kg packed. :mad:

blorg

furiousox wrote: »

Just got a quote from dhl for shipping the frame back...E140!
The thing only weighs 5kg packed. :mad:

The seller should be paying that, I would certainly insist.

Might be worth checking with the post office, it is almost certainly cheaper, even registered. Tip: Find one that doesn't know about the concept of "dimensional weight," Sandyford certainly doesn't.

Caroline_ie

blorg wrote: »

The seller should be paying that, I would certainly insist.

Might be worth checking with the post office, it is almost certainly cheaper.

as far as I know it's you who pay for it. If the seller wants to help I am sure he can though.

bcmf

AFAIK the seller must re-imburse you for postage.

Caroline_ie

bcmf wrote: »

AFAIK the seller must re-imburse you for postage.

I will inquire

furiousox

blorg wrote: »

The seller should be paying that, I would certainly insist.

Might be worth checking with the post office, it is almost certainly cheaper, even registered. Tip: Find one that doesn't know about the concept of "dimensional weight," Sandyford certainly doesn't.

Yeah the actual weight is 5kg but the dimensional weight is 30kg.
The box is 1050mm long 200mm deep and 720mm high (usual cardboard box that bikes are packed in)
Can I just walk into my local (small) post office and send it or is it too big?

bcmf

mrs bcmf got some stuff 2 weeks ago and it was wrong she sent it back to the UK and was re-imbursed the postage so it worked for her

Caroline_ie

.

For Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claims, PayPal may require you to post the item back to the seller – or to PayPal - or a third party at your expense and to provide proof of delivery. Please take reasonable precautions in re-packing the item to reduce the risk of damage to the item during transit. PayPal may also require you to destroy the item and to provide evidence of its destruction.

* I guess if you want to send back to PayPal you can always drop it off to Ballycoolen Dublin 15

bcmf

Caroline_ie wrote: »

.

* I guess if you want to send back to PayPal you can always drop it off to Ballycoolen Dublin 15

wow.Thanks Caroline

blorg

There are eBay/Paypal policies but if not happy with the seller's response you CAN do a chargeback with your credit card and tell the seller they are welcome to arrange collection of the frame.

eBay/Paypal may however penalise you (e.g. suspend your account) if you do this (AFAIK.) So bear that in mind.

In any case, it is certainly worth threatening the seller that you are going to do a chargeback if they will not pay for the return shipping. It may encourage them.

How much did you pay for the frame? Damaged like that it does not have a lot of value, to be honest it may make more sense for the seller just to write it off and give you a refund.

Under EU law if you were buying from a business and got damaged goods the seller would have to pay return shipping... I think this is not necessarily the case in a private sale though where consumer protection law does not apply.

But this isn't a case of you just changed your mind, you were sent a clearly damaged frame by a dishonest seller that knew fine well what they were doing. Why should you be out any money at all.

Regarding the dimensional weight, it is all down to the post office, smaller ones are probably less likely to know they are meant to apply it on bulky items. I have posted a number wheels from Sandyford and only been charged on the actual weight (around 1kg) rather than the much larger dimensional weight.

Caroline_ie

PayPal will not suspend your account if file a charge back unless the chargeback was filed because your card was stolen and used. Depends what the CC company files the CB as afaik...

As for the dropping the items off to the PayPal office, I have seen it done ( shipped back via post ) before when i worked w/ the claims department but I couldn't tell you can do it unless they agree to in the claim process.

furiousox

"PayPal may also require you to destroy the item and to provide evidence of its destruction."


Very tempting believe me, anyone got a hammer?

Caroline_ie

furiousox wrote: »

"PayPal may also require you to destroy the item and to provide evidence of its destruction."


Very tempting believe me, anyone got a hammer?

The thing is, don't send the items back now or dont anything before they ask you to. ( expept the proof from a bike shop letter so it's done )

furiousox

Got a mail from paypal saying the seller has offered a full refund if I return the frame.
I'm gonna have to ship it back at my own expense but I'm getting the price of the frame plus the original shipping costs refunded to my a/c.
Probably as good an outcome as could be expected.
So, if I drag this thing boxed into my local post office will they take it off me and ship it?

cdaly_

I'd be looking for the shipping costs too. I suspect paypal pass on the offer and see will this solve it so they don't have to do anything more but I suspect they'd escalate if you push them...

blorg

cdaly_ wrote: »

I'd be looking for the shipping costs too. I suspect paypal pass on the offer and see will this solve it so they don't have to do anything more but I suspect they'd escalate if you push them...

I would also be looking for return shipping costs. Threaten a CC chargeback and say they can arrange collection. Legally you are perfectly entitled to do this. Ask your credit card company and get the details. This is to threaten the seller, probably worth asking Paypal nicely first. Also get the bike shop letter certifying it unsafe to ride, the guy is taking the piss sending you a frame with gouges in it and not mentioning it in the original auction.

Where does it have to go back to? If it is UK and you get a post office that doesn't apply dimensional weight it might not be THAT expensive, 5kg registered to UK is €45, Europe is €60. While I would certainly be demanding they cover return shipping if it is only ~€50 it might not be worth the hassle to push it.

furiousox

blorg wrote: »

I would also be looking for return shipping costs. Threaten a CC chargeback and say they can arrange collection. Legally you are perfectly entitled to do this. Ask your credit card company and get the details. This is to threaten the seller, probably worth asking Paypal nicely first. Also get the bike shop letter certifying it unsafe to ride, the guy is taking the piss sending you a frame with gouges in it and not mentioning it in the original auction.

Where does it have to go back to? If it is UK and you get a post office that doesn't apply dimensional weight it might not be THAT expensive, 5kg registered to UK is €45, Europe is €60. While I would certainly be demanding they cover return shipping if it is only ~€50 it might not be worth the hassle to push it.

Hi Blorg, I paid for the frame with funds directly from my paypal a/c rather than using a credit card (I've sold a lot of tat on ebay lately and just left the cash from the sales sitting in my paypal a/c)
The frame seller replied to me stating that the scratches were 'surface marks from normal wear and tear' but at the same time offering a full refund.
He's running a bike store (http://www.veloline.it/) so he knew exactly what he was doing by selling the frame without mentioning the damage.
I will try an post on Monday to see how much shipping to Italy is.

Just want to say thanks to everyone for the advice, comments and input.

blorg

OK fair enough, you can't do a chargeback in that case.

As it is a business seller though I would get looking into EU consumer protection legislation.

There may be limitations on auctions; whether it was an auction or a Buy it Now may be relevant.

IM0

The best way to look at this is if it was already your frame from new, and you did that to it with chain slip over time, would you keep riding it no problem? or junk it :eek:

It looks pretty superficial tbh, add in you paid 300~ for an otherwise imaculate looking 2700~ frame, personally Id keep it