Here lads, 20 quid?

Obi-Jim

Just having read a thread in the commercial section there, I hear this A LOT more than expected.

Minimum wage is about €8.50 or something, isn't it (didn't look it up).

So, assuming most days are 10 hour sessions, that's €85 to have a completely uninformed/in-experienced/tesco employee (not that there's anything wrong with working in tesco) to work for you, for a day. And lets face it, most engineers probably do more than those 10 hours to achieve some sort of "quality".

So, if we can assume that a good engineer is worth more than minimum wage, and the gear/property rent/bills has to be paid, where do musicians get their maths skills from? Surely even a bedroom recording with somebody's elses gear is worth at least €20 an hour. Now, i know studios/engineers have slashed prices to attract work, but come on ...... honestly .... no wonder there's so many crap recordings out there if musicians expect anything even approaching reasonable at this rate.


(now, the fact that he also asked for an hourly rate maybe shows that there's even more non-willingness to pay for quality)

Another guy complained to me before that he paid €250 per day in Blast Furnace up in Derry. He honestly thought it was completely unreasonable. He also expected to get something mad like 4 songs a day done (mixed and all), when I told him he was being ridiculous before he went in, of course he didn't believe me. When he didn't get it done, he felt a bit hard done by. How and why? I don't understand this mentality at all. And even more so, when these musicians ask experienced people, either in person or online, and they are told not to be silly and told what the best approach is, they flat out disagree and go about it their **** way anyway, then complain about the quality of the recording/studio/engineer.

Apologies for the long windedness, I'm not sure what to expect in a reply, I think I needed the rant though.

Idiots, that will never succeed.

(I also don't understand the mentality that musicians aren't prepared to put in/risk there own money for their band, yet hang around waiting for someone else to come along who is willing to risk their cash. I mean, if you don't have faith enough in yourself, why should anyone else have faith in you?)

Oh and here's a link to blast furnace: http://www.blast-furnace.com/ (i think Munro acoustics might have done the setup here too, perhaps)

Savman

Eh, what's the question again?

dav nagle

Agreed.

Obi-Jim

;)HA! yea, sorry.. got a bit lost, more of a rant.

But I suppose it's: Even though musicians get told over and over that €20 an hour is not an acceptable price to pay for a good recording, why is there still the assumption that this is more than reasonable?

MilanPan!c

Honestly, this is why I spend all my time at home recording ItB.

I can't afford those rates personally, so I demo'd at home in the hopes if getting someone else to pay for studio time. And it worked.

Bands really shouldn't be spending 4-5k for a recording, on their own.

Unless they're just loaded.

Venues barely care and if you're paying for studio tome out of pocket you don't have the necessary team behind you to get radio play.

Nothing against kick ass studios, can't wait to be in one again, and I agree almost completely with the OP, I just also think most bands have more reasonable options.

Obi-Jim

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Honestly, this is why I spend all my time at home recording ItB.

I can't afford those rates personally, so I demo'd at home in the hopes if getting someone else to pay for studio time. And it worked.

Bands really shouldn't be spending 4-5k for a recording, on their own.

Unless they're just loaded.

Venues barely care and if you're paying for studio tome out of pocket you don't have the necessary team behind you to get radio play.

Nothing against kick ass studios, can't wait to be in one again, and I agree almost completely with the OP, I just also think most bands have more reasonable options.

Fair enough, but you don't have to pay 4-5k.

But these bands are disappointed when they don't have 3 top quality songs for €200.

And yes, bands should work on getting a team of people. But, if the band is looking to be "professional" and have a manager, producer, live engineer, PR, all that jazz, then their team will be professionals. Professionals get paid.

If you are simply making a recording of a few songs for an EP to represent your band to punters or magazines or for getting gigs, is it not at least worth €200-€250 per member for a decent product? It's not that much money.

If you were a member of a club, you'd pay membership fees, monthly fees, competition fees etc etc. Can bands not at least put the same into the band.... and assuming being a musician is their ultimate goal in life, and they want to be successful more than anything..... i'd expect them to perhaps even push the boat out a bit with a few hundred quid, every now and then.

Savman

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Venues barely care and if you're paying for studio tome out of pocket you don't have the necessary team behind you to get radio play.

This, tbh. It's more down to shortsighted-ness, and most bands are guilty of it. Also, most just don't have the funds and are paying for it out of their own pockets, so €20p/hr will seen unreasonably high to them.

Savman

Obi-Jim wrote: »

And yes, bands should work on getting a team of people. But, if the band is looking to be "professional" and have a manager, producer, live engineer, PR, all that jazz, then their team will be professionals. Professionals get paid.

How many such bands do you know????

Obi-Jim

Yea fair enough Savman, you're right there I think. Do you think their short sightedness is wrong though?
It just seems that because music is their hobby, it must just be a hobby to everyone else who works in music/entertainment. Would I be close with that?

I mean, if I've to get an electrician out, that I don't know, it'll cost me more than €20 an hour for him to just show up. And that's completely acceptable to most people.

Savman wrote: »

How many such bands do you know????

Yea, fair enough. Two, that i know, that go part of the way. Other people have become successful independently though too.
But this is what happens when a label/management become involved. Budgets get made, people get paid... and hopefully it all balances up in the end.

I guess i'm more referring to bands that say and believe "we'll go at it independently because no label or whatnot has picked up on us yet. I mean, if your goal as a band is to just keep going, doing the stuff you do, and hopefully one day someone will see you and make you successful, by all means they should continue their pipe dream.

old gregg

yea I can understand the frustration for folks working in the biz having to justify a decent wage and all that good stuff. At the same time I can understand all the kids hoping to record their first demo and not even knowing what the minimum wage is. For sure they have no realistic place dropping into a swanky establishment like Blast Furnace with their pocket money and hoping to turn out a quality product. At the same time there has to be a way for a bunch of teens in a metal band (I have a teenage son and all his mates are in various death metal bands, god love them all) to put together a hundred eurines or so and come away with something good enough to get them into the next battle of the bands and progress from there.

Note: I don't have anything to do with recording other folks but honestly believe that anyone earning money should be willing to pay fairly for the goods and services they use.

EL_Loco

Probably some young fellas in bands never been paid in their lives for playing and think it's like that throughout the business.

OP, who tried to throw you 20 quid? any context?

Obi-Jim

It's not that I don't sympathise with your son and his peers gregg, it just doesn't seem feasible. They could get something: Hire somebody for minimum wage and spend the other €15 euro renting the recording gear and do it somewhere that the rent/bills is going to cost them, and the quality that they'll get will justify the price.
OR: It cost €40-€50 for a rehearsal room for 4 hours in the city. 8 hours for €80-€100, plug in your MD recorder or something, there you go €100 worth of recording

It just doesn't seem logical. (if they could each get €100 then maybe you'd be looking at something)

In the past everyone and there brother didn't have a recording, but young lads now are sort of expected to have a product. That is part of the problem for young bands, for sure. So, the young lads prepared/able to front up a few bob for a decent song or two are going to get more gigs, yes. Whether you're 16 or 56, it's still a living business the same as anything else.

Who do you think should provide the facility to warrant a band paying €100 and getting a song? That's a loss making business.


Oh... and these kids aren't the people I'm speaking of. These are working men. I'm not really in touch with any musicians that aren't fully grown able men/women.




The post was in relation to a thread in the commercial section. It wasn't that anybody offered me €20. This is just a general attitude

old gregg

ahh well Obi-Jim, fully grown folks should be able to appreciate that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys so I'd have little sympathy for them. I've encountered the miserly types while doing paid field recording work and prefer to walk away from that type of project.

I just have a soft spot for all those metal kids and how angsty earnest they are

PMI

Alot of the problem is that there are guys out there that will do it for pennies, and its the same with gigs....

This takes me back to an old argument 3 shops I worked for had with Marshall Amps, you maintain the product/service by keeping its price at a certain level for what you/it offers ie: dont discount marshall amps as there will be a bidding war and it will de-value the product (some other shop nearby started to mess with marshall prices and the marshall mafia got um but thats another story )

Same here, people have to be prepared in studios and when getting gigs to say NO and after a while if you are worth your salt in a studio or live the money will come to you at the level you expected.

Let the youngsters off 98% of um wont do F*** all with the tracks anyway other than tell their mates and put um up on my space haha

Obi-Jim

I have a soft spot for the kids too, people would even offer them a good deal if they could make legitimate money from "proper" folks.

My issue isn't even that some people ask for these prices, it's grand to say no, it just seems to be the norm.
And sure, it's not that it bothers me that much. It's just that I was thinking about it today, after reading that post over in the commercial board, and your man asked "how come you won't do it for €20 an hour", expecting a reputable engineer to justify himself. It's more to do with that, than relating it to myself.

(superquinn tried to sell bread for below cost price a few years back and got in trouble too PMI)

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

Alot of the problem is that there are guys out there that will do it for pennies, and its the same with gigs....

This takes me back to an old argument 3 shops I worked for had with Marshall Amps, you maintain the product/service by keeping its price at a certain level for what you/it offers ie: dont discount marshall amps as there will be a bidding war and it will de-value the product (some other shop nearby started to mess with marshall prices and the marshall mafia got um but thats another story )

Same here, people have to be prepared in studios and when getting gigs to say NO and after a while if you are worth your salt in a studio or live the money will come to you at the level you expected.

Let the youngsters off 98% of um wont do F*** all with the tracks anyway other than tell their mates and put um up on my space haha

this is exactly my attitude toward playing live... Pay me money or I'll say NO.

Favours are rarely returned, and playing to peole that don't care is a waste of time.

Just run it like you would a buisness... If you have a good product and a good pitch you'll stay in buisness... As long as you're honest with yourself and bust your hump.

old gregg

as an aside, not sure how it works around the country but some local arts offices will part fund a music project by a band/artist in exchange for acknowledgement on the CD case.

I know that my local arts office in Waterford do this but applications have to be in by January. Maybe worthwhile for a band to spend a year saving up, practising/gigging/the usual and then apply for a grant towards recording/producing a record. At that stage they are ready to pay for quality time in a decent location with experienced personnel and all are happy.

It certainly made a difference to my most recent foray.

MilanPan!c

old gregg wrote: »

as an aside, not sure how it works around the country but some local arts offices will part fund a music project by a band/artist in exchange for acknowledgement on the CD case.

I know that my local arts office in Waterford do this but applications have to be in by January. Maybe worthwhile for a band to spend a year saving up, practising/gigging/the usual and then apply for a grant towards recording/producing a record. At that stage they are ready to pay for quality time in a decent location with experienced personnel and all are happy.

It certainly made a difference to my most recent foray.

I always forget how generous he govt can be.

I'm from the states and that **** wouldn't really fly.

old gregg

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I always forget how generous he govt can be.

I'm from the states and that **** wouldn't really fly.

yea, we've got a rock n' roll Taoiseach for sure

I think it's a case of how you approach bodies like the arts council and that sort of thing.

Obi-Jim

old gregg wrote: »

Maybe worthwhile for a band to spend a year saving up, practising/gigging/the usual and then apply for a grant towards recording/producing a record. At that stage they are ready to pay for quality time in a decent location with experienced personnel and all are happy.

That's pretty much it right there gregg! That kind of logic doesn't seem to exist in most musicians.
It's more "Ok lads, we should make a record, how much can we get together? I heard they do overnighters in electra" or "OK lads, i've booked whelans for next month, how much can we get together for a few posters"

(granted engineers are equally as guilty, with gear and the likes)

Rockshamrover

The old saying "you get what you pay for" springs to mind here.

No harm in letting potential clients know what it is they are getting for that 20 euro an hour.

Your experience, knowledge and goodwill. Not to mention the equipment.

Once they know why you charge what you charge and how that impacts on the final product, they'll probably be more willing to part with the cash.

madtheory

Obi-Jim wrote: »

Oh and here's a link to blast furnace: http://www.blast-furnace.com/ (i think Munro acoustics might have done the setup here too, perhaps)

That is an excellent description of the service on their homepage. Spot on and also clever!