Buddhism under attack from Fundamentalists

monosharp

Hey all,

Although I'm interested in religion, and Buddhism in particular, I am not actually religious. I do enjoy the philosophical discussions that can be had with some religious people. I in fact regularly meet a Catholic priest, a very interesting fellow, (with a physics degree).

So while I have no time for religion as a belief system for myself, I don't dislike religion or religious people without good reason.

Well here's a good reason.

Nearly 3 years ago I moved to South Korea, I entered the country with a vague belief in a supernatural being. And then I started seeing, hearing and bumping into Christian fundamentalists.

At first it was amusing and curious, I'd never seen anything like it before. Walking down the street waving huge crosses, shouting at the top of their voices (in Korean). Trying to shove leaflets into your hand, stepping in your way on purpose to stop you when your walking etc.

Then it became annoying, I have to deal with this every single day. They are just everywhere, its not what I consider a religion, its a business here and its sickening and every day that passes I get more and more annoyed.

One incident which might make you understand the situation here, which really made me angry happened a few months ago. My wife was coming home from work, exited the subway and was stopped by a middle aged man with fliers. He asked her to come to his church, so my wife, knowing that "no" doesn't work with these fanatics decided the good old "I'm buddhist" approach which usually makes them go away. The guy started ranting to her (not unkindly) that his family is buddhist and he was buddhist before until he realised that it (buddhism) is a mental disease and now he doesn't contact his family because they refuse to accept Jesus.

Now the above was translated for me so what exactly he meant by 'buddhism is a mental disease' is up for debate but lets agree that its not a good thing.

This got me interested in what these nutjobs were doing to other religious people and after some research I was utterly appalled.

I am not going to tell you all my complaints because if I did it would take me a week to write it. Korea is now approximately 20% Christian not including Catholics (10%) and a large percentage of that 20% are fundamentalist nutjobs.

This post is already becoming too long so I'm gonna quote wikipedia.

[QUOTEhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists#South_Korea]Some South Korean Buddhists have denounced what they view as discriminatory measures against them and their religion by the administration of President Lee Myung-bak, which they attribute to Lee being a Christian.

The Buddhist Jogye Order has accused the Lee government of discriminating against Buddhism and favoring Christianity by ignoring certain Buddhist temples but including Christian churches in certain public documents. In 2006, according to the Asia Times, "Lee also sent a video prayer message to a Christian rally held in the southern city of Busan in which the worship leader prayed feverishly: 'Lord, let the Buddhist temples in this country crumble down!'" Further, according to an article in Buddhist-Christian Studies: "Over the course of the last decade a fairly large number of Buddhist temples in South Korea have been destroyed or damaged by fire by misguided Christian fundamentalists. More recently, Buddhist statues have been identified as idols, and attacked and decapitated in the name of Jesus. Arrests are hard to effect, as the arsonists and vandals work by stealth of night."[14] A 2008 incident in which police investigated protesters who had been given sanctuary in the Jogye temple in Seoul and searched a car driven by Jigwan, executive chief of the Jogye order, led to protests by Buddhists who claimed police had treated Jigwan as a criminal.[/QUOTE]

Heres a full list of Christian Fundamentalist attacks on Buddhists and Buddhist temples.

http://christianwatchindia.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/south-korea-a-chronology-of-christian-attacks-against-buddhism/

And some extracts;

October. An unidentified man disrupts a Dharma talk at the Nûngin Zen Center by driving nails into the tires of believers’ automobiles parked outside. The perpetrator also pours corrosive chemicals into various car engines. An accomplice meanwhile uses portable amplification equipment to sing Gospel songs up at the Buddhist gathering, located on the third and fourth floors.

April. Five to six individuals destroy a Buddha statue and paint red crucifixes on a large outdoor Ma-ae Buddha figure carved into the rock on Samgaksan Mountain on the outskirts of Seoul. In all, some 10 temples are severely damaged or desecrated in the days immediately before and after the national Buddha’s Birthday holidays.

These people are just out of their minds and what's worse is the government largely ignores or even supports a lot of this persecution.

Here's a Buddhist Monk discussing the issues.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0107/123.html

And here's some pictures of destroyed temples.

http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html

And the worst thing is that the 'normal' Christians don't condemn this, they simply don't care.

Asiaprod

Hi Monosharp.
Let me be quite blunt with you here, what exactly is the purpose of your post?
If its to knock the Christian Fundamentalist, its not really appropriate here. Keep in mind that Buddhism teaches respect for other's belief, but it does not demand that other groups return the favor. I know some very cool Christian Fundamentalist that do not act in this manner. There are always idiots in every camp, we Buddhists have them too you know, and South Korea has had quite a few maverick monks.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

One incident which might make you understand the situation here, which really made me angry happened a few months ago. My wife was coming home from work, exited the subway and was stopped by a middle aged man with fliers. He asked her to come to his church, so my wife, knowing that "no" doesn't work with these fanatics decided the good old "I'm buddhist" approach which usually makes them go away. The guy started ranting to her (not unkindly) that his family is buddhist and he was buddhist before until he realised that it (buddhism) is a mental disease and now he doesn't contact his family because they refuse to accept Jesus.

Now the above was translated for me so what exactly he meant by 'buddhism is a mental disease' is up for debate but lets agree that its not a good thing.

Not a good thing. I feel the same way about people at train stations here in Ireland who accost me about socialism or other issues. Nutjobs do seem to hang out at train stations, don't they?

I am not going to tell you all my complaints because if I did it would take me a week to write it. Korea is now approximately 20% Christian not including Catholics (10%) and a large percentage of that 20% are fundamentalist nutjobs.

No, a large percentage are evangelical Christians. But to label them as 'fundamentalist nutjobs', to be honest, makes you sound as unbalanced as the guy at the train station.

Christianity is growing fast in Korea, and that inevitably produces tensions. There is evidence of intolerance on both sides of the fence. Some Christians are obviously behaving in what I would see to be a most unChristian way. Then you get Buddhist leaders demanding that the Korean Football Association ban footballers from making 'prayer gestures' when they score goals! http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/03/117_62156.html Apparently, according to the same article, a Christian figure skater had to apologise for offending Buddhists by making reference to his own personal faith and God's will.

It sounds like people on both sides of this tension need to calm down and be a bit more tolerant of each other.

The Buddhist Jogye Order has accused the Lee government of discriminating against Buddhism and favoring Christianity by ignoring certain Buddhist temples but including Christian churches in certain public documents. In 2006, according to the Asia Times, "Lee also sent a video prayer message to a Christian rally held in the southern city of Busan in which the worship leader prayed feverishly: 'Lord, let the Buddhist temples in this country crumble down!'"

You forgot to mention that the President later apologised, saying that he had not known in advance that such a prayer would be prayed. http://blog.ameia-kl.com/2009/10/buddhists-monks-nuns-say-conflict-with.html

I understood that the President had also formally apologised for any discrimination, and that Buddhist community leaders had accepted his apology. No? http://english.kbs.co.kr/news/newsview_sub.php?menu=4&key=2008092707

And here's some pictures of destroyed temples.

Sad and depressing. I would hope that all of us would deplore and condemn such actions, and similar acts (eg the destruction of churches by Buddhists in Sri Lanka, or the destruction of Sikh Temples by Hindus in India). Nobody gains anything from such activities.

And the worst thing is that the 'normal' Christians don't condemn this, they simply don't care.

Not true.

Kim Kwang-jun, an Anglican priest who is head of the National Council of Churches of Korea’s Committee on Interfaith Dialogue, issued a statement of solidarity. “As a Christian I apologize for cases of religious discrimination, like when Rev. Jang Gyeong-dong caused controversy for insulting Buddhism,” said Kim. “The Lee administration has discarded the principle of separation of church and state and even the principles of democracy, all in the name of pragmatism.”

The Reverend Kim Young-ju, director of international affairs for the Korean National Council of Churches, has said, "Former President Kim Young-sam was a very conservative elder of the Presbyterian church, and there were many conservative Christians at the time who wanted to turn Korea into a Christian state,'' Rev. Kim said. ``At the KNCC, we condemn that
attitude...We want to reform our position. We want more dialogue with other religions.''

monosharp

Asiaprod wrote: »

Hi Monosharp.
Let me be quite blunt with you here, what exactly is the purpose of your post?

I'm trying to figure out why I seem to be incapable of conveying to what I consider intelligent decent people, the insanity of some religious fundamentalists over here. I'm not even religious but these people are simply out of their minds and out of control. The government is completely biased towards one religious group and I find this absolutely intolerable in this day and age. Its bad enough in a country like Ireland with the Catholic church or a country like China or a country like Saudi Arabia or ... etc. But in Korea its ridiculous.

But what is happening right here on my doorstep really sickens me. I guess I want some sort of response from someone to tell me that I'm not just nuts and that other people would feel the same way.

The general publics apathy towards this situation from Koreans and foreigners alike is almost as bad as the situation itself. I don't understand it and this annoys me even more.

If its to knock the Christian Fundamentalist, its not really appropriate here.

If the roles were reversed (buddhists & christians or religion X and religion Y) I'd still have made this post, although maybe not here.

Keep in mind that Buddhism teaches respect for other's belief, but it does not demand that other groups return the favor. I know some very cool Christian Fundamentalist that do not act in this manner.

Then I am using the wrong definition of fundamentalist because the people I am talking about are simply out of their minds. I'm talking about people very near to Fred Phelps level whereas I think your talking about people whom I'd consider 'mainstream'.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Not a good thing. I feel the same way about people at train stations here in Ireland who accost me about socialism or other issues. Nutjobs do seem to hang out at train stations, don't they?

I've discussed this umpteen times with you and I have completely failed to convey it properly. I realise its my fault not yours. Its not the same thing as what your describing. I also get accosted here regularly to buy this or that, or give money for charity X or Y. Its not the same.

No, a large percentage are evangelical Christians. But to label them as 'fundamentalist nutjobs', to be honest, makes you sound as unbalanced as the guy at the train station.

I'm beginning to think I must be unbalanced because I believe I do speak English to a decent enough level, yet I keep failing to make people understand the situation.

PDN you know I have mentioned this before to you and each and every time I have I always made sure to draw the line between 'mainstream' and 'nuts'. I honestly don't know how to describe them. The people I'm talking about are 1 step away from Fred and family.

I'm not talking about the Evangelists who might hand out fliers with an old smile. I actually don't mind them, I got many a free cup of tea from them actually.

I'm talking about the people who walk down the street with a cross shouting into a microphone, telling people believing in Buddha is going to bring you to hell. I'm talking about the people standing outside train stations who physically shove fliers into your hand and literally beg people to come to their church. Not talk to people, beg and command people to do it.

I'm not talking about main-streamers.

Some Christians are obviously behaving in what I would see to be a most unChristian way.

Thank you.

I really do feel its my inability to convey what I mean properly to you because I'm sure you'd be just as disgusted as I am.

Then you get Buddhist leaders demanding that the Korean Football Association ban footballers from making 'prayer gestures' when they score goals!

Your article say they 'asked' not 'demanded'.

But I understand the fully accept what your saying. But you do realise why they asked for this don't you ? (I don't agree with it, i think its ridiculous to ask that)

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/03/117_62156.html Apparently, according to the same article, a Christian figure skater had to apologise for offending Buddhists by making reference to his own personal faith and God's will.

No, the commentator on the telly said that about the figure skater who AFAIK has no religion. i.e > Lee Seung-hoon won the gold medal and the commentator on TV said "It was gods will". The commentator had to apologise. completely reasonable I should think.

It sounds like people on both sides of this tension need to calm down and be a bit more tolerant of each other.

Thats my point exactly. The Christian-like (i'll stop calling them Christian altogether if you want because I don't consider them in the same vein as the mainstream people at all) people are completely intolerant.

Google and see how many examples of Buddhist damage to Christian churches you can can find in Korea. Then look at the lists I gave you and compare.

You forgot to mention that the President later apologised, saying that he had not known in advance that such a prayer would be prayed. http://blog.ameia-kl.com/2009/10/buddhists-monks-nuns-say-conflict-with.html

I just copied from wiki, it didn't mention it. (you can check, i gave the link no ? )

But I don't believe that guy for a second. When he was Mayor of Seoul he gave a speech saying "I give this city to God". Hes well known for his anti-Buddhism/Catholicism.

Kim Kwang-jun, an Anglican priest who is head of the National Council of Churches of Korea’s Committee on Interfaith Dialogue, issued a statement of solidarity. “As a Christian I apologize for cases of religious discrimination, like when Rev. Jang Gyeong-dong caused controversy for insulting Buddhism,” said Kim. “The Lee administration has discarded the principle of separation of church and state and even the principles of democracy, all in the name of pragmatism.”

Yes thanks for that I didn't know he condemned that. But you must also pay attention to the last thing he says.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

I guess I want some sort of response from someone to tell me that I'm not just nuts

Sorry I can't help you there.

seriousfizz

Monosharp, I think maybe the term Christian Extremists would suit your case better than Christian Fundamentalists?

Either way, as has been said before, every camp, wether it's religious, political, or whatever else, has it's nutjobs. The 'extremists' if you will. You don't need to question wether these people are sane or not, or wether your sane or not, although of course it's normal to wonder.

My practice of Buddhism teaches me to tolerate these people as best I can. Maybe there should be more to be done? I'm not one to say.

I don't have such experiences of my own like you do, so thank you for bringing them here and I hope you can eventually reach some sort of conclusion on the topic!

Asiaprod

monosharp wrote: »

I'm beginning to think I must be unbalanced because I believe I do speak English to a decent enough level, yet I keep failing to make people understand the situation.


I really do feel its my inability to convey what I mean properly to you because I'm sure you'd be just as disgusted as I am.

This is not a criticism of you, just a friendly observation. I feel that you may be coming from a position of anger when you talk about at these extremists and that may be coloring your speech inadvertently. I used to do this a lot till my mentor pointed it out. I am still trying to change this bad part of my nature.:)

monosharp

Asiaprod wrote: »

This is not a criticism of you, just a friendly observation. I feel that you may be coming from a position of anger when you talk about at these extremists and that may be coloring your speech inadvertently. I used to do this a lot till my mentor pointed it out. I am still trying to change this bad part of my nature.:)

After talking to my wife tonight about this very situation I feel that your right. My wife is 'slightly' Buddhist, I don't know if you'll understand what I'm trying to say with that, she likes the philosophy of it but doesn't go to temple, believe in the spirituality etc.

But I told her how annoyed I'm becoming about the situation I posted here. she on the other hand isn't annoyed and has to put up with many times what I have to put up with as shes Korean.

I don't want to be so annoyed by this as I believe its really starting to affect me, now when I meet people here if they say they're Christian I immediately want to stop the conversation. I'm pre-judging them based on my experiences and I don't want to be that kind of person.

Maybe you should delete this thread asiaprod, I've decided I need to have a serious think about this myself.

Thanks.

Asiaprod

monosharp wrote: »

Maybe you should delete this thread asiaprod, I've decided I need to have a serious think about this myself.

Thanks.

No way, its a good thread. One way to loose the anger is to talk it out; Your wife probably knows enough about Buddhism to that she is able to approach the issue with a sense of sorrow or compassion for these people. In Buddhist terms they are really only hurting themselves.

As to part two, it is enough to have just the philosophy to be able to effect change in our environment. The temple, spirituality etc is a choice that some of us make, others don't. Each to their own. Pre-judging people is a dangerous road to get on. It really only serves to hurt ourselves in the long run as we alway color the perception with our own flavor. Let the anger go and see the situation with fresh eyes. Then you will clearly see how stupid these people really are.

And remember that one of the core tenants of Buddhism is " I have a choice," I can choose. This applies to everyone, Buddhist or not.

Bodhidharma

To the OP, I read your first post but not the others, so keep in mind that what I say is based on that.

I believe that Christian fundamentalists are primarily lead by people who have two things at the centre of their activities - power and money

I am like yourself, I am not religious in the least but do try to adhere to Buddhist philosophical principles.

I can understand why you are confused by Christians. My girlfriend's family are Born Again Christians, and I know I will never be fully accepted by them. This is because they have an attitude of exclusion, a 'with us or against us' attitude.

I have always felt that fundamentalists in any form are overly aggressive and are only interested in status.

I would guess that the reason the Korean government shows favortism towards Christians is because that country is particularly Western orientated, and also the fact that more money is to be made from Christianity than Buddhism.

Regards,
Bodhidharma

bou

From a buddhist perspective, there is no reason to get angry. Or rather, it is due to karma that the arising phenomena are perceived as suffering and due to habit that the negative emotion of anger arises in response to the perception. Thus, karmic seed are sown again and the cycle of suffering continues.
Easy to say this but not so easy to realize it in a live situation and damn hard to go against what your emotions tell you.
I'll continue with my understanding of the view which Tibetan Mahayaha buddhism describes.
Religions also are phenomena arising due to causes and conditions. The Buddha said that the Dharma he taught was impermanent and would be corrupted and fade away eventually. Thankfully, it is still here now though it's fortunes have risen and fallen in different places and times. It has been virtually destroyed in India and much of Central Asia and Indonesia. It could be renewed in those places again. It could increase in new places. Eventually however, it will disappear. Its appearance is due to interdependence and the karma of beings and it will disappear due to interdependence and karma.
It is said that there have been countless worlds and perhaps universes (if one could equate a kalpa with a universe). In some of these, buddhas have appeared and taught the Dharma. In others, no buddha came and the Dharma never appeared.
My understanding is that the way to protect the Dharma is to follow it. To do this you must find an authentic teacher, listen to the teachings, and put them into practice in all aspects of your life. When Dharma has been followed well, realization may arise and a profound alteration take place in how you view yourself, the world and other beings. When that happens, you become a reliable and authentic holder of the teachings and others may safely follow your example and advice. Without this kind of lineage, the Dharma would be completely corrupted and its inner wisdom lost.
It is said that those who have realization see deeply into interdependent circumstances and the karma of beings. They are free of negative emotions and self-centeredness and see with less obscuration. They have the wisdom and compassion to see the needs of beings and at all times act in ways that bring benefit to beings. As long as circumstances and the karma of beings allow, they will appear as teachers and transmit the wisdom of the Dharma. When the circumstances don't allow this, they still appear in various ways to benefit beings and bring them towards enlightenment.

So when someone kicks you in the nuts, stop to think about it for a moment before falling over in excruciating agony. Who knows, they could be teaching you something.

18AD

There is nothing wrong with being angry at these people. It is a natural response to a situation that gets to you in a certain way. Do not repress your anger, but find out where it is coming from, and redirect the energy of anger into something else.

To paraphrase a rather famous phrase: the things you hate about other people are the very things you dislike about yourself.

It appears to me that your anger is actual sourced in compassion. You seem to be angry that a certain social situation and ideology that has influnced/persuaded these people to live unfruitful tortured existences.

I've only briefly scanned all of the posts, and I hope these comments are of some help to you. They seem to address some of the imortant themes running through the thread.

Good luck.
AD

KamikazeKenny81

18AD wrote: »

It appears to me that your anger is actual sourced in compassion.

I do this all the time, it hurts me to see people suffer and to see no-one doing anything about it, it makes me want to scream in the bystanders faces until they have no option but acknowledge the pain they are either ignoring or causing.

Of course this does nothing but cause me pain on top of the suffering that already exists. Im starting to get over this but its slow progress on this one, any advice would be welcome?