God of the Old Testament * Christian minded responses only please *

kelly1

*** Christian/Theological responses only please ***

Hello all,

I'd like to start a discussion on what is for many people a stumbling block in terms of believing that God is good and merciful. I also want to make it clear that I've only read parts of the OT.

We often hear people say the Judeo-Christian version of God doesn't sound worthy of worship because He's guilty of so many atrocities in the OT. And why is there such a big difference between the God of the OT and God as presented by Jesus?

Has anyone studied this problem in depth? Is there a problem of interpretation on the part of present day readers or did the OT writers misunderstand God and misrepresent Him in scripture? Or was God really that vengeful?

God bless,
Noel.

Tim Robbins

Here's a link to the number killed in the OT by God.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html

Note: not a theological (in the academic sense of the word) reference but I couldn't find one.

PDN

Noel, this thread can go one of two ways. Do you want it to be Christian Responses only or open to all?

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Note: not a theological (in the academic sense of the word) reference but I couldn't find one.

Nor a lucid reference either. For example, just glancing at it I see that 2 Kings is cited as a guy getting trampled to death for "disbelieving Elijah" (sic).

That particular passage says that it was prophesied by Elisha that a guy would see an abundance of food available but would not himself eat of it. He was subsequently trampled to death by a crowd rushing to grab some of the food. Somehow, in the fevered imaginations of the creators of that website, this equates to God killing him!

It was to avoid such nonsensical anti-theist propaganda, and to allow for some genuine theological discussion rather than a tit-for-tat war, that I asked Noel if he wished this thread to be Christian Responses only or not.

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

Noel, this thread can go one of two ways. Do you want it to be Christian Responses only or open to all?

I know the question is to Noel but forigive me for sticking my ore in here, I feel that if we allow everyone to hop in it could be another ''God does not exist'' thread dont you think?

Noel I have my answer for the above but dont have the time to think it through just yet, but when I get home in the evening I'll let you know my thoughts upon the subject, its a good thread, I hope I dont see it getting closed because of trolls.

God bless
Stephen

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I'd like to start a discussion on what is for many people a stumbling block in terms of believing that God is good and merciful. I also want to make it clear that I've only read parts of the OT.

We often hear people say the Judeo-Christian version of God doesn't sound worthy of worship because He's guilty of so many atrocities in the OT. And why is there such a big difference between the God of the OT and God as presented by Jesus?

Has anyone studied this problem in depth? Is there a problem of interpretation on the part of present day readers or did the OT writers misunderstand God and misrepresent Him in scripture? Or was God really that vengeful?

God bless,
Noel.

There is no inconsistancy netween the old and the new, in fact it is completely consistant. The OT 'attrocities' are inspiring as a believer. It shows Gods love for his people, and how he deals with his enemies. How is that inconsistant with the NT message? We are told that there will come a judgement, a final one too, when this will happen again. The difference between OT and NT is who his people are. Israel were a nation. A geographic one, as well as a people, so his judgements fell on the enemies of him and this nation founded on his promise to Abraham.

The difference these days, is that his nation Israel is a spiritual one. Faithful Christians are his people, lots of which are gentiles, grafted on to the tree of Israel. Can you now give a geographic location for such a nation? No. Thus, the next act of Judgement is the harvest, a vey apt metephor. The faithful will be reaped, and the rest will be burned up like chaff.

Anyone who thinks that there is inconsistancy between the old and new are simply wrong or ignorant.

doctoremma

JimiTime wrote: »

The difference between OT and NT is who his people are. Israel were a nation. A geographic one, as well as a people, so his judgements fell on the enemies of him and this nation founded on his promise to Abraham.

The difference these days, is that his nation Israel is a spiritual one. Faithful Christians are his people, lots of which are gentiles, grafted on to the tree of Israel.

You hope. What do Jewish people think of this?

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

Noel, this thread can go one of two ways. Do you want it to be Christian Responses only or open to all?

True! I've already edited the title (read: jumped the gun) to reflect a request for theological replies (which means it is open to all - as long as they are Christian spirited). If this isn't what you want, Kelly, please edit the title to make it clear.

JimiTime

doctoremma wrote: »

You hope.

The good news delivers great hope alright. If you mean that in a 'oh I really hope that this is the case', then no, thats not how I feel at all. For all intents and purposes, I 'know' (Call it belief if you wish, but it has all the effects of knowledge, but I wont get into the semantics of it all) Christ is the truth, and in having this knowledge, I have hope.

What do Jewish people think of this?

What does it matter? This is the Christianity forum, and the NT details the how gentiles are grafted on to the tree representing Israel by virtue of their faith in Christ and that the nation is a spiritual one.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

There is no inconsistancy netween the old and the new, in fact it is completely consistant. The OT 'attrocities' are inspiring as a believer. It shows Gods love for his people, and how he deals with his enemies. How is that inconsistant with the NT message? We are told that there will come a judgement, a final one too, when this will happen again. The difference between OT and NT is who his people are. Israel were a nation. A geographic one, as well as a people, so his judgements fell on the enemies of him and this nation founded on his promise to Abraham.

The difference these days, is that his nation Israel is a spiritual one. Faithful Christians are his people, lots of which are gentiles, grafted on to the tree of Israel. Can you now give a geographic location for such a nation? No. Thus, the next act of Judgement is the harvest, a vey apt metephor. The faithful will be reaped, and the rest will be burned up like chaff.

Anyone who thinks that there is inconsistancy between the old and new are simply wrong or ignorant.

God certainly takes a different approach when comparing NT and OT. In the O/T, the death penalty was the prescribed punishment for adultery etc. God doesn't strike people dead these days! Why does God call for bloodshed in the OT and not in the NT?

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

God certainly takes a different approach when comparing NT and OT. In the O/T, the death penalty was the prescribed punishment for adultery etc. God doesn't strike people dead these days! Why does God call for bloodshed in the OT and not in the NT?

If we're honest, I think many of us find some of the stuff in the Old testament a bit disturbing. But that may well be because we consistently minimise and underestimate the awfulness of sin.

The Israelites, once they came out of Egypt, were surrounded by a bunch of tribes that detested them. The only thing they had going for them was their unity as God's people. Anything that destroyed that was likely to result in annihilation - which in turn would mean that Jesus would never be born.

Therefore I think of the strict laws, and draconian punishments, that applied to the period of the wilderness wanderings and the conquest of the Promised Land as being like the restrictions placed on people during times of war or national emergency. We don't see them being applied later in Israel's history.

Different rules apply at different times. At one time I insisted that my daughter hold my hand when we crossed the road, obviously that does not apply today as she is 21 years old. It's not that my views on road safety have changed, but she has changed.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

If we're honest, I think many of us find some of the stuff in the Old testament a bit disturbing.

If anyone has got a better reference for numbers killed in OT, I would be very grateful if they could pass it on.
Or as people who know the scriptures a lot better than me, could you give your opinion on how many have been killed by God?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I'd like to start a discussion on what is for many people a stumbling block in terms of believing that God is good and merciful.
...
We often hear people say the Judeo-Christian version of God doesn't sound worthy of worship because He's guilty of so many atrocities in the OT. And why is there such a big difference between the God of the OT and God as presented by Jesus?
...
Has anyone studied this problem in depth?

While I appreciate you want to keep this thread on topic, I think there is a limit to how far you are going to gain insight into these "stumbling blocks" without properly understanding them, which no offense I don't think any of you do (people have issue with the Old Testament because they are stupid/biased/selfish/Satanists!).

Not saying I'm the one to explain them to you, but without proper insight into these issues people have, or with off hand dismissal as some seem to be doing, this is just going to be a some what pointless exercise in back patting.

You know, bit like what we do on the atheist forum where we all discuss why religious people are religious because they are idiots :P

*(warning: not what we actually do )

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

While I appreciate you want to keep this thread on topic, I think there is a limit to how far you are going to gain insight into these "stumbling blocks" without properly understanding them, which no offense I don't think any of you do (people have issue with the Old Testament because they are stupid/biased/selfish/Satanists!).

As I see it, atheists find the God of the Old Testament as flawed because He has fits of rage and "smites" people and displays jealousy etc.

This leads people to conclude that this God is a human fabrication.

Is that not the gist of it?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

As I see it, atheists find the God of the Old Testament as flawed because He has fits of rage and "smites" people and displays jealousy etc.

This leads people to conclude that this God is a human fabrication.

Is that not the gist of it?

No, not really. At least not for anyone who has spend more than 5 minutes looking at the Bible and considering Christianity.

I'm reluctant to get into more detail because to be honest I don't think many around here care that much about my opinion, nor do I want to get accused of being off topic.

I will try and dig up some better descriptions of the problems of the Old Testament/New Testament non-Christians have (this issue is not simply an issue for atheists. Jews have been complaining for centuries that the God of the Old Testament is incomparable with the God of the New Testament)

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

While I appreciate you want to keep this thread on topic, I think there is a limit to how far you are going to gain insight into these "stumbling blocks" without properly understanding them, which no offense I don't think any of you do (people have issue with the Old Testament because they are stupid/biased/selfish/Satanists!).

Very last warning. Stop trolling please. If you can't address the issue of the OP without this type of nonsense then please don't bother.

Fanny Cradock

I seem to remember that the ever excellent Don Carson has something interesting to say on the matter. I'll see if I can dig up a link or two.

Fanny Cradock

Ok found a couple of links that you might find interesting. First is a book entitled The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God. Second is a talk given by Carson that covers the afore mentioned book in part.

A blurb of the audio link below:

"There have been times when Christians found it easy to believe in the justice of God, but found it difficult to believe in the love of God. In most of the Western world, this is no longer the case. If people believe in God at all, they assume he is a God of love, but often presuppose largely sentimental conceptions of love, with little space for holiness, justice, or wrath. Moreover, believers have often embraced only one of the several ways the Bible speaks of the love of God, and read that one pattern into every biblical text that speaks of God's love, unwittingly producing some astonishingly nonsensical theology. This workshop attempts to explore some of the different ways the Bible speaks of the love of God, how they function, how they are integrated, and how they are related to all of the perfections of the God of the Bible."

It is fairly dense stuff, and consequently you might find that you have to approach it more than once. But he raises some very interesting points.

JimiTime

^^I think that deals with the perception very well.