Free Dublin Bus pass?

mailforkev

Just a pointless curiosity that someone might be able to quell for me...

In getting the bus to and from work every day I see numerous people who seem to have a free pass (looks like a quarter A4 sized piece of paper in a transparent plastic wallet).

My (probably incorrect) thoughts are that they are for pensioners, social welfare recipients or DB employees' families maybe?

I'm just curious what they actually are as there are a couple of pretty well-heeled schoolgirls that get the same bus as me every morning that seem to have them.

Anyone out there care to shed some light on this for me?

As you can probably tell the mindlessness of my daily commute throws this crap into my head

KC61

They are the Social Welfare passes and also the Department of Education school travel scheme passes.

Cookie_Monster

Don't forget all the fakes

mailforkev

So how does a school child get one? If it's financially based on the family circumstances then I suspect the parents of the two girls who get on at my stop are taking the piss a bit. Or is there other criteria?

KC61

mailforkev wrote: »

So how does a school child get one? If it's financially based on the family circumstances then I suspect the parents of the two girls who get on at my stop are taking the piss a bit. Or is there other criteria?

Perhaps they are going to a Gaelscoil? That is one of the criteria.

antoinolachtnai

These tickets are not necessarily free.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-post-primary-school/school_transport

mailforkev

KC61 wrote: »

Perhaps they are going to a Gaelscoil? That is one of the criteria.

No, these particular girls are going to a regular secondary school. And you're not actually telling me that you get cheap or free bus fares for going to an Irish school are you? Around here (southside Dublin) they tend to be used by middle class parents more for social engineering purposes than for idealistic reasons (in my reasonably qualified opinion of course).

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

These tickets are not necessarily free.

Ah I see, this might explain it.

KC61

mailforkev wrote: »

No, these particular girls are going to a regular secondary school. And you're not actually telling me that you get cheap or free bus fares for going to an Irish school are you? Around here (southside Dublin) they tend to be used by middle class parents more for social engineering purposes than for idealistic reasons (in my reasonably qualified opinion of course).

Yes they do - if there is no gaelscoil within a certain distance of their home. It is part of the state's promotion of the Irish language. There may well be means testing applied, but it is available - I can certainly remember large numbers travelling on the 17 to/from the Irish schools on the Stillorgan Road every day, and many had Dept of Education passes.

jclare56

I think its just a bus pass - if you live a sufficient distance away from the school, the department of transport gives you a slight discount on the bus travel - its saves school kids bringing in cash everyday and i suppose promotes school kids using the bus rather than getting a lift to school, easing congestion etc... it is only valid in term time and can only be used to go to and from school

Aard

There are two passes. The first is for schoolchildren only. When I was getting it, it was about 35 euro per term. It allows travel to and from school only.

The second is for social welfare recipients. An example of people with this pass would be the disabled, the elderly, and the poor.

They are look different, but from afar may look similar.

As said above, forgeries are also widely available on the black market.

jimmycrackcorm

Aard wrote: »

As said above, forgeries are also widely available on the black market.

It's a wonder they don't use the same system as the taxsaver by using rfid cards.

Seaswimmer

KC61 wrote: »

Yes they do - if there is no gaelscoil within a certain distance of their home. It is part of the state's promotion of the Irish language. There may well be means testing applied, but it is available - I can certainly remember large numbers travelling on the 17 to/from the Irish schools on the Stillorgan Road every day, and many had Dept of Education passes.

If you are more than 3 miles (they have not converted to KM yet) from your nearest secondary gaelscoil (2 miles for primary i think) you get a "free" bus pass. It only works out marginally cheaper than a school child ticket but saves you having to look for change every morning. For my 3 teenage children attending a gaelscoil it costs €650 per year (as opposed to about €800 if you paid for individual tickets) and is only valid for the school trip during term time.

Colm R

Arguing for or against the reasons for free travel aside, I think its time for these to be converted to smart cards. If you are entitled to it, fair enough. A
Would hopefully cut out the forgeries. Also the system would record the necessary information and make life easier for the driver.

Aard

As a bus-user with a legitimate pass, I completely agree with a smart-card system.

These passes are the most commonly forged documents in the country atm, according to Prime Time, they can be bought for as little as 100 euro.

I guess the problem with a smart-card would be compatibility with bus, luas, and IE scanners.

foggy_lad

would anyone know is there time restrictions placed on the school travel tickets/passes that many children use for travelling to or from school?

i recently was on the 190 bus from drogheda late one evening and a schoolboy boarded the bus only to be threatened and told by the driver that the next time he is getting on the later bus(it was just after 6pm) he will have to pay the full fare or be left behind. i thought this was very odd and thought bus drivers would be more courteous and a bit more caring towards the welfare of minors?

Aard

It's 17:00 on weekdays and 13:30 on saturdays.

They're pretty strict, in my experience. And most of the drivers don't know about the saturday thing - I used to have a class on sat mornings, and was frequently reprimanded for trying to use the pass.

That said though, the pass is always abused - kids going to town instead of using it to go home e.g.

stop

I had one, mates did too.
When these tickets are posted out, the address is printed onto a piece of paper which is attached via a perforation to the ticket. The address is used for the window envelope in which the ticket comes. Anyways one DB driver took it upon himself once to open the ticket out, to check if these address slips were still attached, most were, one wasn't and he accused the mate of removing the address section as to try and use it as another ticket! He then confiscated the actual ticket, before insiting the mate pay the schoolchild cash fare. Mate did, no other way to get home!
One angry mother phone call later, and a DB official drove to mate's house that evening with the ticket, an apology, and a few family passes.

That said, I know other mates who used the school pass, on a sunday, in july, on the 185 all the way to shop river with full camping gear, and nothing was said.

So some drivers checked too much, some too little.

Vic_08

Colm R wrote: »

Arguing for or against the reasons for free travel aside, I think its time for these to be converted to smart cards. If you are entitled to it, fair enough. A
Would hopefully cut out the forgeries. Also the system would record the necessary information and make life easier for the driver.

Life is currently very easy for the driver, unless you are bothered by having to do nothing as cheating scum getting away with fraud on a regular basis.

As it currently stands unless there is something obviously incorrect with the passes we have no choice to accept them even though we know a large proportion are fakes, stolen or "borrowed".

I agree 100% that it needs to be changed, the Northern Irish authorities also thought so when setting up the 32 county free travel scheme for over 65s. They took a look at the joke of a system in use here and insisted that any ROI pensioner requiring travel north of the border apply for one of their passes which are credit card sized with contactless chip and photo.

The reason this has not happened here is simple, the people that issue the passes do not actually have any financial incentive to stamp out fraud. The Department of Social Welfare issue them but they pay the 3 CIE companies a set rate no matter how many passes are issued or used for travel.

BT!

We take a dim view of that caper down here in the Kingdom !!! an article from the Kingdom newspaper, i've XXX out the persons name but it is in the public domain.
A MAN who pleaded guilty at Killarney District Court to using a false bus pass has been directed to pay €600 to the court poor box. XXXXXX appeared before the court charged with using a false instrument and with obtaining services by deception at Rock Road, Killarney on 11 April 2009.
O'Shea used the false bus pass to travel from Cork to Killarney and that the loss to Bus Eireann was €17.
Solicitor Peter Malone said his client worked at a call centre and was also undertaking a fitness instruction course.
He said he came across a forged the bus pass and used it to visit a sick uncle in a Tralee hospital.

Cookie_Monster

BT! wrote: »

We take a dim view of that caper down here in the Kingdom !!! an article from the Kingdom newspaper, i've XXX out the persons name but it is in the public domain.
A MAN who pleaded guilty at Killarney District Court to using a false bus pass has been directed to pay €600 to the court poor box. XXXXXX appeared before the court charged with using a false instrument and with obtaining services by deception at Rock Road, Killarney on 11 April 2009.
O'Shea used the false bus pass to travel from Cork to Killarney and that the loss to Bus Eireann was €17.
Solicitor Peter Malone said his client worked at a call centre and was also undertaking a fitness instruction course.
He said he came across a forged the bus pass and used it to visit a sick uncle in a Tralee hospital.

Oops! :pac:

Link it to a source and you're grand

foggy_lad

loads of people are using false/forged bus passes but there is no incentive for cie employees to even try to catch these scumbags!

people with free travel should be required to carry a passport to prove their identity as even the photo id for pass holders living in city areas is easily obtained!

AlekSmart

The fraudulent use of DSFA Free Transport passes is far more widespread than admitted to by the relevant authorities.

Whilst the Prime Time Reports programme managed to put a face and a value (€100) to a DSFA Free Pass the reality is of a system which is largely unmanageable by virtue of its design.

The current DSFA Free Pass is simply a piece of cardboard with a serial number.
The only additional "security" feature is a bar-code and a space for a signature.
Only those recipients living in a designated Urban area are required to have a Photo-ID in order to validate possession of the card.

The DFSA itself has proven somewhat unwilling to quantify exactly how many passes or recipients thereof actually exist on it`s books.
The best guess comes from a submission to a Dail Committee on Transport submission which mentioned 600,000 Passes.

Mush of the problem lies in the old arrangements for DSFA Free Travel payments which worked perfectly well when CIE was the only show in Public Transport town.

It was then easy to simply agree on an oul Lump Sum to cover everything.
However now we have multiple commercially focused Transport Companies each with a requirement to make a profit and who are understandably reluctant to take on board an open-ended committment without adequate recompense.

The Northern Irish attitude is,of course,far more sensible and robust.

The Translink "Concessionary Travel" scheme is SmartCard based with real-time useage monitoring an inbuilt feature.

It`s especially noteworthy that when the 32 county Free Travel scheme was introduced by Seamus Brennan (RIP),the Northern authorities were not prepared to accept mere possession of a forgery friendly scrap of cardboard but insisted on Southern applicants applying for and using their own Smartcard,thereby allowing very close and accurate monitoring of the Free Travel cost.

The current DSFA Free Travel scheme is totally out of control and essentially unmonitored.
Given that it is a totally manual system it has a design requirement for manual checking,which is no longer an accepted part of Irish Public Transport Operational procedures.

Therefore we now have a system which is wide open for Fraudulent usage and we need not be surprised at the rapidly expanding numbers of people suddenly presenting for Free Travel at source.

Not for the first time have we led the way in a highly Socially Desireable system only to have it turned on its head by our native unwillingness to develop or improve the basics.

Even attempting to procure accurate up-to-date figures for the total cost of the DSFA Free Travel scheme is fraught with difficulty with various elements buried deep in subsidiary accounts or even not recorded at all.

The inevitable result of this slothful and ultimately negligent ignorance will be the total collapse of the basic Free Travel system and then we`ll all be the poorer for it.

Cookie_Monster

"Ah shure, tis me pocket Mr Driver"
"go on so"

And that is why its open to such massive abuse.

Vic_08

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

"Ah shure, tis me pocket Mr Driver"
"go on so"

And that is why its open to such massive abuse.

No it is not.

Alek's post accurately describes exactly why it is open to abuse.

But sure why bother with all that when it is easier to lay the blame at the frontline staff that are forced to deal with the reality of a disgrace of a system created and propped up by highly paid politicians and civil servants.

Vic_08

foggy_lad wrote: »

i recently was on the 190 bus from drogheda late one evening and a schoolboy boarded the bus only to be threatened and told by the driver that the next time he is getting on the later bus(it was just after 6pm) he will have to pay the full fare or be left behind. i thought this was very odd and thought bus drivers would be more courteous and a bit more caring towards the welfare of minors?

foggy_lad wrote: »

loads of people are using false/forged bus passes but there is no incentive for cie employees to even try to catch these scumbags!

So when we do challenge fradulent travel you complain and you also complain when you think we don't. :rolleyes:

BT!

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Oops! :pac:

Link it to a source and you're grand

i'm trying to get back to the link on the Kingdom newspaper and discovered another court case as well from the Corkman newspaper, ye're very lenient in the pale it seems !!


Thursday February 23 2006


XXXXX with an address at XXXXXXXX, pleaded guilty to obtaining services by deception when he appeared before Judge Michael Pattwell.
A sitting of Mitchelstown District Court heard that XXXXX had loaned his bus pass to his sister’s boyfriend who had no money and wanted to travel home to Midleton on April 31, 2005.
Garda Inspector Pat McCarthy said on the day of the offence a Bus Eireann Inspector boarded the bus and asked Mr XXXX's accomplice to give his date of birth which failed to correspond with the date on the defendant’s bus pass.
XXXXX solicitor said the 37-year-old apologised for the offence and had never before done anything like that.
Judge Pattwell said that may well be the case but look at what he and his accomplice had cost the state in bringing the case which he added was “all for €7.95”
He went on to convict Mr XXXXX of the offence and imposed a fine of €250 payable within one hundred days.

foggy_lad

BT! wrote: »

i'm trying to get back to the link on the Kingdom newspaper and discovered another court case as well from the Corkman newspaper, ye're very lenient in the pale it seems !!


Thursday February 23 2006


XXXXX with an address at XXXXXXXX, pleaded guilty to obtaining services by deception when he appeared before Judge Michael Pattwell.
A sitting of Mitchelstown District Court heard that XXXXX had loaned his bus pass to his sister’s boyfriend who had no money and wanted to travel home to Midleton on April 31, 2005.
Garda Inspector Pat McCarthy said on the day of the offence a Bus Eireann Inspector boarded the bus and asked Mr XXXX's accomplice to give his date of birth which failed to correspond with the date on the defendant’s bus pass.
XXXXX solicitor said the 37-year-old apologised for the offence and had never before done anything like that.
Judge Pattwell said that may well be the case but look at what he and his accomplice had cost the state in bringing the case which he added was “all for €7.95”
He went on to convict Mr XXXXX of the offence and imposed a fine of €250 payable within one hundred days.

any chance that we could borrow your hanging judge here in carlow?

L1011

Take ours! Please! Zaidan's as bad as Patwell.

booksale

Guys, are there any direct buses to go from Kimmage to Dun Laoghaire?????

booksale

oops, sorry, wrong place.