Defending Christ in todays Society.

Stephentlig

Dear fellow Christians, have you ever been in a position were you found yourself having to defend Christ and his Church from the onslaught of verbal and bigotry abuse? or were in conversation lets say in a pub where people ( either drunk or sober) were constantly making fun of your Christian belief? If so, how did you deal with such a predicament?

If I were to give instance of my own, both I and my wife found myself in a pub one night having a drink, I was in it earliar than she was as she was coming to meet me, I was watching something on the pubs television, and a man came in, he was I'd say in his early 50's and he spoke with me every now and again commenting on the film that was on the tele, he seemed really nice and I had warmed up to him a bit, my wife then came in and in his conversation to us, he must of noticed that in our speech the use of the F-word was absent and he asked us were we religious and I said yeah, we are Christian Catholic. He then asked me if I was a fundamentalist, and what was funny about it all was that he was actually serious...he then asked if I was a creationist and I said yup, thats right we are. then he asked me why I decided to believe in God or how I my conversion came about, well...half way through my conversion story he started shouting like a mad man, and saying things like ''where was God when my mother died?'' but by this point any kind of response was not gonna suffice as he was not allowing me to respond at all since he was so concerned with his anger, he grabbed his coat and left whilst shouting obscenitys about Christ and the Catholic Church.

My wife was a little scared, and too be honest I didnt quite know what was gonna happen next, but we kind of just left the pub and moved elsewhere, and I felt sorry for him.

Pax Christi
Stephen

monosharp

Stephentlig wrote: »

...he seemed really nice and I had warmed up to him a bit, my wife then came in and in his conversation to us, he must of noticed that in our speech the use of the F-word was absent and he asked us were we religious and I said yeah, we are Christian Catholic.

Not calling you a liar but are you been honest about how he knew you were Christian ?

Noticing a lack of cursing hardly ranks high on the list of guessing someones religion. Do you wear crosses etc ?

And 90% of the time when I meet someone whose a Christian, they let me know about it, whether I want to know or care. Met a girl once who literally was incapable of talking for 5 minutes without mentioning Jesus. Used to tell people the 'light of Jesus is shining through you' every morning.

He then asked me if I was a fundamentalist

Again, why would he assume this ?

and what was funny about it all was that he was actually serious...he then asked if I was a creationist and I said yup, thats right we are.

Creationist = fundamentalist. Did you have an answers in genesis t-shirt on or something ?

then he asked me why I decided to believe in God or how I my conversion came about, well...half way through my conversion story he started shouting like a mad man, and saying things like ''where was God when my mother died?''

Some people are just lunatics. Out of curiosity why would you engage in religious conversation with a stranger in a pub ? I thought it was an unwritten rule, no religion and no politics.

Especially considering all the child abuse that the Catholic Church has been responsible for and has come out recently.

Stephentlig

Creationist = fundamentalist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvsX03LOMhI

philologos

monosharp wrote: »

And 90% of the time when I meet someone whose a Christian, they let me know about it, whether I want to know or care. Met a girl once who literally was incapable of talking for 5 minutes without mentioning Jesus. Used to tell people the 'light of Jesus is shining through you' every morning.

I think people sussed it out from what societies I said I joined at university :pac:

monosharp wrote: »

Some people are just lunatics. Out of curiosity why would you engage in religious conversation with a stranger in a pub ? I thought it was an unwritten rule, no religion and no politics.

Why is it an unwritten rule? Perhaps such rules are better off broken.

monosharp

Jakkass wrote: »

Why is it an unwritten rule? Perhaps such rules are better off broken.

Just personally there are two subjects, Religion and Politics which I try to avoid speaking about to strangers. Especially in Ireland, no ?

Have I been away that long ?

seanybiker

Dont worry about the chap. He obviously just wants someone to blame for him being mad. Not all us non believers are as mad as him lol. Next time just take a bit longer to suss someone out before telling them your life story or basically anything that doesnt concern them.

MilanPan!c

monosharp wrote: »

Not calling you a liar but are you been honest about how he knew you were Christian ?

Noticing a lack of cursing hardly ranks high on the list of guessing someones religion. Do you wear crosses etc ?

And 90% of the time when I meet someone whose a Christian, they let me know about it, whether I want to know or care. Met a girl once who literally was incapable of talking for 5 minutes without mentioning Jesus. Used to tell people the 'light of Jesus is shining through you' every morning.



Again, why would he assume this ?



Creationist = fundamentalist. Did you have an answers in genesis t-shirt on or something ?



Some people are just lunatics. Out of curiosity why would you engage in religious conversation with a stranger in a pub ? I thought it was an unwritten rule, no religion and no politics.

Especially considering all the child abuse that the Catholic Church has been responsible for and has come out recently.

I agree with all of this, except maybe the creationist thing; moat religious types ate casual and yet most believe in creation (and angels, etc.).

I'd also add that the OP managed to go into a public place (boards.ie) and talkk about Christ again.

PDN

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I'd also add that the OP managed to go into a public place (boards.ie) and talkk about Christ again.

Yes, amazingly enough that topic of conversation (Christ) does crop up here in the Christianity Forum now and again.

prinz

Yes, had an incident in a Dublin second-hand bookshop a few weeks ago, was minding my own business having a browse through the religious section (actually was looking for a book for the OH not myself) when a little pup, barely 20 if even that, decided I needed his input... and he informed me that I was "wasting my f'n time, that it's all BS anyway"...

tbh I didn't bother replying. The arrogance of some people speaks for itself. Fairly typical of the attitude of a number of posters in this forum tbh.

PDN

prinz wrote: »

Yes, had an incident in a Dublin second-hand bookshop a few weeks ago, was minding my own business having a browse through the religious section (actually was looking for a book for the OH not myself) when a little pup, barely 20 if even that, decided I needed his input... and he informed me that I was "wasting my f'n time, that it's all BS anyway"...

tbh I didn't bother replying. The arrogance of some people speaks for itself. Fairly typical of the attitude of a number of posters in this forum tbh.

A similar thing happened with a friend of mine, a seminary professor from the United States. He came over to Ireland for a holiday with his wife and was in a second hand bookshop somewhere near Limerick. The owner of the shop asked them if they were looking for anything in particular, so my friend explained that his wife collects old hymn books. The shop owner launched into a foul mouthed tirade against bible bashers, God botherers and paedophiles. In the end the shop-owner's son dragged his dad away and advised my friend to get out of the shop before it got violent.

My friend, who is a bit of an ivory tower intellectual and the last person in the world you could describe as a Bible-basher, was genuinely shocked. Land of a thousand welcomes, eh?

seamus

There are a lot of people in this country who are very angry with the Catholic church through direct dealings they've had with the church. Not even necessarily sexual abuse related, but other dealings around sensitive family matters - deaths, marriages and births - where a priest abused his power to take control of the situation despite the family. Lots of people have been burned in the past and the extreme sensitivity of these occasions means that it becomes a lifetime grudge against the Catholic church. This is usually extended to cover all religion.

These are the people who are most likely to *want* to talk about the church to a stranger or otherwise in public whereas the rest of the non-Catholic population is unlikely to want to get dragged into a discussion on the topic.

So if someone starts discussing God or religion with you, be wary as they're likely to have some sort of message to get across and they don't actually care what you think. That goes for both the religious and non-religious in our society.

MilanPan!c

PDN wrote: »

Yes, amazingly enough that topic of conversation (Christ) does crop up here in the Christianity Forum now and again.

Just saying I find the OP a little unbelievable.

I live in the same society as you and RARELYdo I see the tiniest minority, athiests, openly attacking the vast majority, Christians.

I think it's also a bit rich complaining, you guys control government, own most of the businesses, control the schools and your pedophiles get first shot at children.

Suck it up.

PDN

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Just saying I find the OP a little unbelievable.

I live in the same society as you and RARELYdo I see the tiniest minority, athiests, openly attacking the vast majority, Christians.

I think it's also a bit rich complaining, you guys control government, own most of the businesses, control the schools and your pedophiles get first shot at children.

Suck it up.

Banned.

Suck it up.

btw, the OP never mentioned atheists. In fact I think you are the first person to mention atheists in this thread.

Stephentlig

I dont think I'd benefit from telling lies about this either emotionally or financially.

I was not wearing any crosses or the like, so my conscience led me to assume it was our lack of profanity within our speech.

he just came out with it, and asked me if I was a fundamentalist, and then asked me if I was a creationist and he said that he was an atheist and believed in evolution, I said fair enough and I was gonna leave it at that and get back to watching the film, but he continued to probe with the question about my conversion, so I responded respectfully.

I know the unwritten rule is there but when it comes to proclaiming the Good news and speaking about Jesus, all man made rules get thrown out the window.

Pax Christi
Stephen

neuro-praxis

When I was an undergraduate studying philosophy, the "big questions" were regularly raised in the pub, library, canteen...wherever. I was honest about being a Christian which was, at the time and remains today, a fairly unusual thing in Irish society. The reactions were always curious and led in general to great conversations about God, the universe and everything.

Since becoming a fully fledged adult, the reaction to discovering that one in your midst is a Christian has been a bit less positive. One example: me and Excelsior (my husband) were at a party last year, having a few drinks and enjoying the craic. We were chatting to some people we had never met before and the subject came around to what everyone did for a living. Excelsior works for a church in an assistant pastor role. When he gave this reply, the person who had asked the question turned his back on us and walked off. In that moment, I could have cried.

But what can you do? Realistically that guy was not hostile to us; he was hostile to an idea of what he assumed us to be. Part of our purpose is changing people's minds on that. That takes time, love and patience.

It's also worth remembering that occasional disdain or hostility does not amount to genuine discrimination or persecution, so we do need to keep these things in perspective.

neuro-praxis

Stephentlig wrote: »

I was not wearing any crosses or the like, so my conscience led me to assume it was our lack of profanity within our speech.

Nobody would ever assume I was a Christian based on any lack of profanity in my speech!

PDN

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Since becoming a fully fledged adult, the reaction to discovering that one in your midst is a Christian has been a bit less positive. One example: me and Excelsior (my husband) were at a party last year, having a few drinks and enjoying the craic. We were chatting to some people we had never met before and the subject came around to what everyone did for a living. Excelsior works for a church in an assistant pastor role. When he gave this reply, the person who had asked the question turned his back on us and walked off. In that moment, I could have cried.

I was sat in the barber's chair one day while he cut my hair and went off on a rant against his parish priest, the Church, and religion in general littered with four-letter expletives. Then, after a while, he asked, "So what do you do for a living?"

Watching his face in the mirror, I replied, "I'm a bishop".

Actually, after he had finished repairing the damage caused when he dropped the clippers, we got into a really good conversation about what should and shouldn't happen in churches. A few months later we were having a charity fundraiser one Sunday in Church and he came along and shaved some heads for free during the service.

doctoremma

Stephentlig wrote: »

he must of noticed that in our speech the use of the F-word was absent and he asked us were we religious and I said yeah, we are Christian Catholic.

I find this an amazing jump. Are you honestly suggesting that only religious people don't swear and that only atheist have mouths like sailors?

Bizarre.

Fanny Cradock

Very good post.

neuro-praxis wrote: »

It's also worth remembering that occasional disdain or hostility does not amount to genuine discrimination or persecution, so we do need to keep these things in perspective.

I very much agree with this. It has taken me a while to understand that such regrettable incidences are not always incidences of discrimination or persecution - not in the real sense. (I'm sure PDN could tell a story or two about the real persecution of Christians in places like China.) I think that some people within Christian circles all too often readily encourage the idea that we are being persecuted. I guess circling the wagons helps create a tight sense of community. Christians have to get used to not living in an overwhelmingly Christian society.

Fanny Cradock

neuro-praxis wrote: »

Nobody would ever assume I was a Christian based on any lack of profanity in my speech!

I curse like a trooper some days.

homer911

doctoremma wrote: »

I find this an amazing jump. Are you honestly suggesting that only religious people don't swear and that only atheist have mouths like sailors?

Bizarre.

While not countering Stephen (well done by the way!), I know a number of Christians who would be apparent "excellent examples" when mixing in Christian circles, but when you get them in a non-exclusively-christian situation (the pub, work, etc), I find their language inappropriate - either "blue" or using God's name carelessly. I struggle to reconcile these situations. (sorry if I have dragged off topic)

I also wonder about Christians being a slave to nicotine - perhaps for another thread...

Handsome Bob

It really is awful to see, the example neuro-praxis gave would of had me going after that guy and calling him an ignorant [insert expletive here], and that's from a non believer.

I would say don't get involved in religious discussions unless you know the person well and trust that the person is interested in a genuine and friendly discussion rather than a hateful rant. I'd never talk religion with a stranger, the stories I've heard, oh man...

Stephentlig

doctoremma wrote: »

I find this an amazing jump. Are you honestly suggesting that only religious people don't swear and that only atheist have mouths like sailors?

Bizarre.

not at all did I assume that all atheists are foul mouthed in speech, I find it an amazing jump too, but because I wasnt wearing any religious objects what else what I to assume? how else was I to know he could detect I was a Christian without me saying it to him?

Perhaps my thought that it was the absence of profanity in speech was wrong to suggest, but what was I to do? I had to formulate some kind of idea as to how he presumed we were Christian and that happened to be it.

Zombrex

I think a lot of people are increasingly angry at religion and religious groups in this day and age, for various reasons.

Unfortunately this lead to a lot of people acting rudely or aggressively towards religious people. Miss placed anger and all that. The man in the pub clearly had issues with Christianity from his past, that he apparently directs towards unfortunately Christians close to him.

I think you did the right thing by doing nothing. Trying to rationally argue with someone who is so clearly worked up about something not related to you but directed at you would be counter productive

I can almost be certain that there was no one in the pub thinking "Umm, I wonder what that Christian did to that man...?"

Everyone was thinking "This guy is a nutter"

I don't know if he was an atheist or not, but atheists like myself cringe when we hear of people acting like that. It only ends up reflecting badly on them. Sort of similar to the Christian motto of Hate the sin love the sinner, we over on the A&A forum have the motto attack the belief not the believer. Attacking the believer is just ignorant and this is reflected in how people like this come across

hinault

doctoremma wrote: »

I find this an amazing jump. Are you honestly suggesting that only religious people don't swear and that only atheist have mouths like sailors?

When I played rugby, we had a team mate who was a priest who used swear like a sailor on the pitch!
Granted he was much more articulate off the pitch:)

On the subject of trying to defend ones beliefs, as a RC I don't get too much gib from people who disagree with religion/Roman Catholic Church.

Curiously today, a Jehovahs Witness called to my front door and we had an interesting chat about our respective viewpoints.
He as a JW, was well able to defend his views.
I would like to be more familiar with the basis of my belief.

Stephentlig

hinault wrote: »

When I played rugby, we had a team mate who was a priest who used swear like a sailor on the pitch!
Granted he was much more articulate off the pitch:)

On the subject of trying to defend ones beliefs, as a RC I don't get too much gib from people who disagree with religion/Roman Catholic Church.

Curiously today, a Jehovahs Witness called to my front door and we had an interesting chat about our respective viewpoints.
He as a JW, was well able to defend his views.
I would like to be more familiar with the basis of my belief.

a good apologetic source hinault is www.scripturecatholic.com

it is one of the greatest RC apologetic sites that I know online, John Salza is a Catholic apologist for the RC.

Pax Christi
Stephen

hinault

Stephentlig wrote: »

a good apologetic source hinault is www.scripturecatholic.com

it is one of the greatest RC apologetic sites that I know online, John Salza is a Catholic apologist for the RC.

Pax Christi
Stephen

Thanks for that link, Stephen.

Stephentlig

hinault wrote: »

Thanks for that link, Stephen.

Oh no! dont thank me, thank Jesus, for all good things come from him:D

monosharp

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I very much agree with this. It has taken me a while to understand that such regrettable incidences are not always incidences of discrimination or persecution - not in the real sense. (I'm sure PDN could tell a story or two about the real persecution of Christians in places like China.)

He could and you could believe him but I highly recommend reading up on the subject yourself.

The Chinese government isn't anti-religious, its anti-anything which could threaten the status quo.

Calling it persecution of Christians is ignoring the larger picture. They don't care if your Christian, Buddhist, Jewish etc. Thats not the issue. The issue is control and when people try to form into groups of any kind for any reason outside of the control of the government they are not going to be happy about it.

And in all fairness they have a point. I don't agree with them but I can fully understand them. If your running a country the size of China with the population of China, trying to balance capitalist economics with one-party rule in a country where a certain area is light-years ahead of another area just down the road in terms of wealth then you either have control or you have anarchy. There are taxi drivers in China who lead a very good life, drive 100 miles and you'll see rice farmers barely surviving.

The government needs control or this very brittle system is going to collapse and with it the country. ( not necessarily a bad thing from our perspective but I understand it from theirs )

So basically yes there is persecution of Christians, but not because they are Christian, because they are seen as a danger to the state. There are plenty of Christians (not 'official') in China, the ones who get free vacations to the local labour camps are usually the ones who couple 'praise be to god' with criticism of the state.

On the same note, there are 'official' state sponsored churches for Catholics and Protestants and I believe Penecostels but not sure about that.

And Christians have it relatively easy, try being a tibetian buddhist or even a falon gong practitioner. That'll get you shot.

Anyways, my point is that its not religious persecution because its entirely political in nature. Not that it makes it right.

I think that some people within Christian circles all too often readily encourage the idea that we are being persecuted. I guess circling the wagons helps create a tight sense of community. Christians have to get used to not living in an overwhelmingly Christian society.

What I want is for people to have whatever religion they want, believe whatever they want. I don't care, I have nothing against anyone for their beliefs.

What annoys me so much about some Christians is that they just simply will not let people believe or not-believe whatever they want.

Can I ask an honest question, I have to put up with someone shouting on the subway waving a cross or handing out rubbish fliers outside the subway station or someone talking to me where 'Jesus' makes his way into every second sentence.

When I came here I found it strange and amusing, then I found it plain annoying and now it is really starting to get to me. Strangers walking up to me or my wife trying to physically shove fliers into our hands and standing in our way trying to convince us to come to their church. Even telling them your Christian isn't enough because if I don't go to their church I'm still not really 'saved'.

I know the majority of Christians are not like this but why do I have to put up with this ? Why can't I just be left alone ?

This is why I'm angry, now I'm not about about to go on a mad rant against the next Christian that starts talking to me but its still very aggravating .

Zombrex

monosharp wrote: »

Anyways, my point is that its not religious persecution because its entirely political in nature. Not that it makes it right.

In fairness though, they are Christians and they get persecuted for being Christians.

So it is Christian persecution.

Sure it goes on with every other type of persecution you can imagine, from persecution of girls to persecution of homosexuals to persecution of civil rights leaders etc etc

But I don't think anyone was implying that China only persecutes Christians.

Anyway this is some what off topic.

monosharp

Wicknight wrote: »

In fairness though, they are Christians and they get persecuted for being Christians.

So it is Christian persecution.

But its not because they are Christian. Its 'any group meeting without state approval'.

The Nazis persecuted Jews for being Jewish, Homosexuals for being homosexual, blacks for being black.

There are 13 million Christians in China who belong to one of the 'official' Christian/Catholic Churches. They don't persecute these Christians.

Protestants in China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lianghui
Catholics in China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism_in_China

They persecute people who meet together in their houses in groups. What they are especially afraid of is people like PDN going there and talking to these underground churches because of the western influence. Not because of the religion but because of the politics involved.

So technically speaking, you could say that the Chinese government doesn't persecute Christians, they persecute people gathering in secret in private homes who happen to be Christian/Buddhist/Falon Gong practitioners.

Unless of course people don't consider the 13 million people who are members of the state sponsored churches to be 'not-christian'.

If you want to know why they are so afraid of this please read about Falon Gong, a religion that is truely despised by the Chinese government.

Zombrex

monosharp wrote: »

But its not because they are Christian. Its 'any group meeting without state approval'.

The Nazis persecuted Jews for being Jewish, Homosexuals for being homosexual, blacks for being black.

There are 13 million Christians in China who belong to one of the 'official' Christian/Catholic Churches. They don't persecute these Christians.

Protestants in China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lianghui
Catholics in China. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism_in_China

They persecute people who meet together in their houses in groups. What they are especially afraid of is people like PDN going there and talking to these underground churches because of the western influence. Not because of the religion but because of the politics involved.

So technically speaking, you could say that the Chinese government doesn't persecute Christians, they persecute people gathering in secret in private homes who happen to be Christian/Buddhist/Falon Gong practitioners.

Unless of course people don't consider the 13 million people who are members of the state sponsored churches to be 'not-christian'.

If you want to know why they are so afraid of this please read about Falon Gong, a religion that is truely despised by the Chinese government.

Yeah ok I see your point, it is the underground part of underground church rather than the church part that gets the Chinese government so up in arms.

Anywhoo, getting a bit off topic

prinz

doctoremma wrote: »

I find this an amazing jump. Are you honestly suggesting that only religious people don't swear and that only atheist have mouths like sailors?

Bizarre.

Now that was an amazing jump!

Stephen didn't suggest anything of the sort but was hazarding a guess as to why this random man would enquire as to his religious beliefs. Temperance of speech tends not to be a strong point of mine

cypharius

Sorry to pull the conversation back to the start again, but I have another angle which may make sense to the OPer. As an atheist(Don't worry, I'm not here to argue) I do find it a bit offensive to have people worship the "god" who according to the bible, is going to have me punished for all eternity for not believing in him. The man at the bar may be angry at the injustice of the world, and see that Christians worship what they see as the cause of everything. Therefore in his eyes, Christians approve of the injustice in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMcthUZGW8

May be a better explanation.

antiskeptic

cypharius wrote: »

Sorry to pull the conversation back to the start again, but I have another angle which may make sense to the OPer. As an atheist(Don't worry, I'm not here to argue) I do find it a bit offensive to have people worship the "god" who according to the bible, is going to have me punished for all eternity for not believing in him...

Misconception #1

The man at the bar may be angry at the injustice of the world, and see that Christians worship what they see as the cause of everything.

Misconception #2

Therefore in his eyes, Christians approve of the injustice in the world.

What your saying is that this person had a go at a Christian because of this persons misconceptions?

PDN

cypharius wrote: »

Sorry to pull the conversation back to the start again, but I have another angle which may make sense to the OPer. As an atheist(Don't worry, I'm not here to argue) I do find it a bit offensive to have people worship the "god" who according to the bible, is going to have me punished for all eternity for not believing in him. The man at the bar may be angry at the injustice of the world, and see that Christians worship what they see as the cause of everything. Therefore in his eyes, Christians approve of the injustice in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMcthUZGW8

May be a better explanation.

So you find it offensive that someone worships a non-existent Being who will send you to a non-existent place?

Don't you think there are more important things to get offended about?

cypharius

antiskeptic wrote: »

Misconception #1




Misconception #2



What your saying is that this person had a go at a Christian because of this persons misconceptions?

Perhaps if you would explain how these are misconceptions...

Also, I'm not defending the guy, I'm just offering an explanation which could explain why he was so aggressive.

cypharius

PDN wrote: »

So you find it offensive that someone worships a non-existent Being who will send you to a non-existent place?

Don't you think there are more important things to get offended about?

It's not "god" that offends me it's that Christians believe I deserve to burn in hell, as they worship the "god" who sets up that system.

It doesn't matter if I believe it's going to happen or not, imagine there was a book where all Christians were being rounded up and shot by some guy and I wore a T-Shirt of this guys face on it. It might offend you(I don't know if it would). But again, I'm not seriously offended by Christianity, I am a bit, but not enough to do anything about it, and I just offered this as an explination for the guys behavior.

Stephentlig

It's not "god" that offends me it's that Christians believe I deserve to burn in hell, as they worship the "god" who sets up that system.

first of all, the Christian belief is that Christ wills no-one to go to Hell, for he died on the cross and saved us from our sins to that we may have eternal rest with him in paradise.

secondly, the Christian belief is that God does not put you in hell, you put yourself there by your unwillingess to repent and believe in him who died for you sins. you willfully accept evil and thus thats the end result.

thirdly ( is thirdly even a word? ) the Christian belief is that you dont deserve to burn in hell, you deserve to reign with Christ in heaven, and every Christian on this forum wants that for you regardless of your belief.
No Christian is your judge.

cypharius

Stephentlig wrote: »

first of all, the Christian belief is that Christ wills no-one to go to Hell, for he died on the cross and saved us from our sins to that we may have eternal rest with him in paradise.

I understand this, but if god is omnipitant than he can do what he likes, and therefore dying on the cross wasn't nesisary and neither is satan/hells existence. But that's just causing a debate, and that's not what I came here for.

Stephentlig wrote: »

secondly, the Christian belief is that God does not put you in hell, you put yourself there by your unwillingess to repent and believe in him who died for you sins. you willfully accept evil and thus thats the end result.

Ah, here's where the problems start to arise, me not believing in god doesn't harm anyone, so how is it evil?*

Stephentlig wrote: »

thirdly ( is thirdly even a word? ) the Christian belief is that you dont deserve to burn in hell, you deserve to reign with Christ in heaven, and every Christian on this forum wants that for you regardless of your belief.
No Christian is your judge.

I understand that Christians don't think I should go to hell, if I ask them for their opinion they will always answer "That's for god to decide" or something along those lines. But they worship the god who sets up a system whereby I could rescue orphans from burning houses on a daily basis and only eat grass and drink water when not saving orphans, yet could still be tortured for all eternity simply because I didn't believe in god.

But this is turning into an argument, I was just offering this as an explanation for the guy at the bars behavior, not invading the Christian forums with my evil atheist taint.



*I'm using the humanist idea of evil, IE:If it harms somebody, yada yada yada.

Stephentlig

cypharius wrote: »

I understand this, but if god is omnipitant than he can do what he likes, and therefore dying on the cross wasn't nesisary and neither is satan/hells existence. But that's just causing a debate, and that's not what I came here for.


Ah, here's where the problems start to arise, me not believing in god doesn't harm anyone, so how is it evil?*


I understand that Christians don't think I should go to hell, if I ask them for their opinion they will always answer "That's for god to decide" or something along those lines. But they worship the god who sets up a system whereby I could rescue orphans from burning houses on a daily basis and only eat grass and drink water when not saving orphans, yet could still be tortured for all eternity simply because I didn't believe in god.

But this is turning into an argument, I was just offering this as an explanation for the guy at the bars behavior, not invading the Christian forums with my evil atheist taint.



*I'm using the humanist idea of evil, IE:If it harms somebody, yada yada yada.

as you said you didnt come for an argument, but my advice to you is to buy a cathechism to understand why it was neccesary that Christ deliver us from our sins. God could of done it another way, but thats the way he chose to do it, so who are we to argue with that? anyhow by a cathechism.

speak to a catholic apologist with your opinions upon church teachings and allow him to explain it to you.

www.scripturecatholic.com give John salza an e-mail or two and allow him to clear things up for you. again I'm not pushing it on you to do so, its just an invitation.

therefore the argument ( as you will be relieved to know ) ends here.

Pax Christi
Stephen

Zombrex

I don't think he is asking for the theology. As PDN points out, he doesn't believe it.

The thing is that Christianity says something along the lines of we are all evil and at some point each Christian goes "Yeah, I agree with that, that makes sense". Otherwise they wouldn't be Christians if they didn't agree with it or think it real.

While I personally don't find that offensive, I can sort of understand why someone would.

None of this though is any reason to start shouting at some in a pub.

antiskeptic

cypharius wrote: »

Perhaps if you would explain how these are misconceptions...

Sure..

Misconception 1. God isn't going to punish people for all eternity because "they don't believe in him". He will punish people for their evil-doing and, for those who effectively chose the option of spending eternity outside the love of God, he will respect that choice. That existing outside the love of God isn't pleasant is incidental to the central issue. A persons own choice.

It'd be like saying that choosing to spend eternity away from all source of heat results in the unpleasantness of feeling cold all the time, is unjust of God - when it's actually the result of a persons own choice.

Misconception 2. God doesn't cause everything to be. He creates beings with potential to choose and those being exercise that choice. Injustice results from their choosing. His responsibility is once-step removed. And he shouldn't be blamed for injustice.

Also, I'm not defending the guy, I'm just offering an explanation which could explain why he was so aggressive.

Understood

rantyface

OP it just sounds like the guy was drunk. You were in a bar. Most of the things people are angry about at the moment (Ryan report etc), are things that devout Catholics are also angry about. It's not necessarily an attack on real Christianity.

ItisintheSTARS

antiskeptic wrote: »

Sure..

Misconception 1. God isn't going to punish people for all eternity because "they don't believe in him". He will punish people for their evil-doing and, for those who effectively chose the option of spending eternity outside the love of God, he will respect that choice. That existing outside the love of God isn't pleasant is incidental to the central issue. A persons own choice.

It'd be like saying that choosing to spend eternity away from all source of heat results in the unpleasantness of feeling cold all the time, is unjust of God - when it's actually the result of a persons own choice.

Misconception 2. God doesn't cause everything to be. He creates beings with potential to choose and those being exercise that choice. Injustice results from their choosing. His responsibility is once-step removed. And he shouldn't be blamed for injustice.

Well explained in a straight forward manner.

I like to Talk about religion in the widest sense,as part of
history ,personal experience and,philosophy.As part of life and society.
Unfortunately the majority of Catholics [of which I would like to be one
as in the highest sense] are SHEEP led by a hierachical clergy who are often themselves just SHEEP,stubborn ones at that,who lead the SHEEPLE not forward but backwards.
As a result of their determined Ignorance ,they are losing the Biggest and best Souls to ATHEISM,and other sins.
So much of he Church are responsible for LEGALISM, IGNORANCE
and the growing of atheism.
I fortunately in spite of the church believe in Christ ,read what He said,
finding the pettiness and cruelty of the ORTHODOX Catholic to be nothing to do with Christ.