Driving technology the wrong way?

Blitzkrieger

Lotus announced the Evora Hybrid at the Geneva motor show. What The F**k. Hybrid? Putting in an extra engine and **** loads of batteries? Does that sound like "Simplify and add lightness" to you? This from Lotus who have done lots of work on versions of their cars that will run on biofuels. I would love a biofuel Lotus - it actually burns more fuel than the standard car but is greener because of the crops you have to plant to make the fuel. Not that I'd give a **** about the knat's fart of emissions that would be coming from the exhaust anyway but the biofuel car produces more HP and more torque....

But that's getting away from the point. There's been lots of arguments about whether hybrids are actually green or not. TBH - I don't know. The pro-hybrid camp argue that it's mpg is so much better that over the life time of the car, they're far greener than a standard car. Their opponents argue that by the time you account for mining the toxic **** that goes in the batteries, transportation and manufacturing, you'd have to drive a Prius until the end of time to have a lower dust to dust carbon footprint than an entry level Fiesta. I suspect that both camps are using stats that flatter their arguments and time will tell. I do know that given the low mileage a typical Lotus does, a hybrid Lotus is a ****ing travesty in every way. At best it's a cynical marketing ploy that might help keep the company alive.

And that's what I'm sort of getting at - car development is being driven by marketing forces rather than technological advancement or the need for a more sustainable transport system. Everybody's putting a fortune into developing hybrids because every twat in Hollywood is driving one, rather than investing in lean burn technology to reduce emissions and conserve oil, or in hydrogen technology that can replace internal combustion engines altogether. I do realise that producing hydrogen is carbon intensive and ultimately as polluting as internal combustion, but hydrogen never runs out and maybe with a few marketing dollars behind them, a cleaner way of producing it could be found.

Either way, basing the focus of our technological innovation on what Leonardo Di Caprio is driving, probably isn't the best way to go.

Zubeneschamali

I think that those gigantic Lexus hybrids are really funny - "Look at me in my huge 4x4 saving the planet!"

Atlantic Dawn

Its EU rules forcing the too produce or have available a certain percentage of cars with low emissions. Aston Martin are going to be selling a rebadged Toyota iQ shortly.

Hagar

Bio-fuels are a two edged sword, there is only a finite amount of farm land on the planet, generally it is used to grow food to feed people not machines. People food will get scarcer and dearer. You heard it here first.

cantdecide

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think that those gigantic Lexus hybrids are really funny - "Look at me in my huge 4x4 saving the planet!"

I disagree.

They aren't intended to be used by everyone as daily transport but if you're going to have one anyway, why not get one that has it's edges rounded off without compromising the refinement.

cantdecide

69 wrote: »

Bio-fuels are a two edged sword, there is only a finite amount of farm land on the planet, generally it is used to grow food to feed people not machines. People food will get scarcer and dearer. You heard it here first.

How much of it is wasted and subsidized/stockpiled anyway? Wasn't there a number around in the past, something like we already produce one and a half times what we need. Something like that?

2 Espressi

That Evora which featured Lotus Engineering's range extender, is a concept, not an intended production car. It's a showcase for the tech, they just dressed it up as prettily as possible for the cameras. It probably wouldn't have made such a splash in a Focus. That said, I think we'll probably see the system in Focus or Golf before we see it on a Lotus forecourt. And, like the other engines you mentioned, it will run on bio-ethanol, petrol, or a mix.

I hope they keep making this stuff, the more "green" tech out there, the more petrol that's left when I get my V8...

Matt Simis

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Its EU rules forcing the too produce or have available a certain percentage of cars with low emissions. Aston Martin are going to be selling a rebadged Toyota iQ shortly.

That could be achieved with BioFuels, which argue their suitability in low powered commuter cars all you want, are much better suited to high performance cars due to insane octane, low emissions (less restrictive cats) and cooler burning (small or no intercoolers).

69 wrote: »

Bio-fuels are a two edged sword, there is only a finite amount of farm land on the planet, generally it is used to grow food to feed people not machines. People food will get scarcer and dearer. You heard it here first.

Hello American-centric forums, circa 2005! Thats an American view based on their poor yield Ethanol business, "expanded" to encapsulate the "planet" to add weight by the US anti-Ethanol lobby.

Zubeneschamali

cantdecide wrote: »

if you're going to have one anyway, why not get one that has it's edges rounded off without compromising the refinement.

No, I don't see it. If you're going to drive a 100K+ gigantic 5.0 litre V8 luxury saloon, who do you think you're kidding by getting one with a little "h" badge?

Matt Simis

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, I don't see it. If you're going to drive a 100K+ gigantic 5.0 litre V8 luxury saloon, who do you think you're kidding by getting one with a little "h" badge?

Reminds me of this, from Bimmerforums:

The V12 Hybrid is actually my car. The reason for the "Hybrid" emblem came about while "meeting" a PRIUS owner at the pump. I had just finished restoring this BMW 850Ci (V12 of course) when a Birkenstock wearing PRIUS owner (still had the window sticker on the "car") leans over and comments: "nice car". I reply with a thank you, to which he replies with: "It's fu_kers like you that are ruining the planet for the rest of us". I did a double-take and asked him to repeat himself (which he did). I pointed out that the problem here really is that when he wakes up tomorrow, he will still only be driving a PRIUS and the fact that my 15 year old car is worth more today than his DURACELL on wheels. After I finished pumping, I apologized to him, told him I will not drive my V12 anymore, but will now be using my Hummer as a daily driver.
The Hybrid emblem is more subtle than the middle finger to these "do-gooders"...

Anan1

The V12 Hybrid is actually my car. The reason for the "Hybrid" emblem came about while "meeting" a PRIUS owner at the pump. I had just finished restoring this BMW 850Ci (V12 of course) when a Birkenstock wearing PRIUS owner (still had the window sticker on the "car") leans over and comments: "nice car". I reply with a thank you, to which he replies with: "It's fu_kers like you that are ruining the planet for the rest of us". I did a double-take and asked him to repeat himself (which he did). I pointed out that the problem here really is that when he wakes up tomorrow, he will still only be driving a PRIUS and the fact that my 15 year old car is worth more today than his DURACELL on wheels. After I finished pumping, I apologized to him, told him I will not drive my V12 anymore, but will now be using my Hummer as a daily driver.
The Hybrid emblem is more subtle than the middle finger to these "do-gooders"...

I drive big-engined cars because I like them, but i'm not stupid enough to think that it's 'cool'.

Hagar

I must get one of those Hybrid badges from my POS. It's at least partially true, if the smoke coming out the back means anything she's running on half oil and half turf.

voxpop

There is alot of tech making petrol engines more efficient and diesel engines more refined. This is all worthwhile and a by-product of the current green fad.

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

I drive big-engined cars because I like them, but i'm not stupid enough to think that it's 'cool'.

Bear in mind Texans are a bit more crude (both the eco-warriors and the gearhead types it seems), but your statement of liking big engines means you think they are cool does it not?

I wouldnt go putting stickers on my car it annoy others (note the V12 emblem is an addon too), but at the same time I do think massive internal combustion engines are very cool and its totally why I drive them.. :pac: I also think even Irish Hybrid drivers are more reserved than to verbally abuse strangers at Petrol Stations, so the response would never be provoked.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

Bear in mind Texans are a bit more crude (both the eco-warriors and the gearhead types it seems), but your statement of liking big engines means you think they are cool does it not?

I wouldnt go putting stickers on my car it annoy others (note the V12 emblem is an addon too), but at the same time I do think massive internal combustion engines are very cool and its totally why I drive them.. :pac: I also think even Irish Hybrid drivers are more reserved than to verbally abuse strangers at Petrol Stations, so the response would never be provoked.

I suppose it depends what we mean by cool really. I'd put liking big engines in the same camp as all my other vices - I do enjoy them but I don't go around boasting about them.:)

Blitzkrieger

69 wrote: »

Bio-fuels are a two edged sword, there is only a finite amount of farm land on the planet, generally it is used to grow food to feed people not machines. People food will get scarcer and dearer. You heard it here first.

They reckon the earth could feed 6 times it's current population, and I think a lot of biofuels can be produced from waste products anyway. It's certainly a way of stretching out the supply of oil....

Matt Simis wrote: »

cooler burning (small or no intercoolers).

Cooler burning? I'm pretty sure they burn hotter than standard fuels. The Lotus engine would have had to be strengthened, were it not already strengthened to deal with supercharging.

Matt Simis

no_account wrote: »

Cooler burning? I'm pretty sure they burn hotter than standard fuels. The Lotus engine would have had to be strengthened, were it not already strengthened to deal with supercharging.

Strengthening is to increase compression (therefore overall efficiency, high octane allows levels not available to Petrol), not increase heat resistance. Ethanol burns cleaner and cooler than fossil fuels, have a look:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ethanol+burns+cooler

The practical applications and examples of this are the 500bhp E85 (only) trucks in the US running with no Intercoolers.

daveharnett

I don't think hybrid and performance need to be mutually exclusive. Have a look at bmw's concept: A small diesel to maintain cruising speed and keep the batteries charged. Electric motors to provide the acceleration, which is where high-performance ice engines tend to be really thirsty.

langdang

voxpop wrote: »

There is alot of tech making petrol engines more efficient and diesel engines more refined. This is all worthwhile and a by-product of the current green fad.

Unfortunately in many cases increased efficiency and refinement are winning out against long term reliability and maintenance costs - leading to a shorter lifetime for cars due to them becoming uneconomical to repair sooner...

But try explaining that to people who think it's a good idea to encourage more diesel use in cities because it produces less CO2...