Dun Laoghaire GC

1916

Interesting article in todays SBP, the club is losing a lot of money

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=THE+INSIDER-qqqs=themarket-qqqs=computersinbusiness-qqqid=47757-qqqx=1.asp

Golf club controversy won’t go away
Sunday, March 07, 2010 By Kathleen Barrington
Al most nine years after the Cosgrave brothers agreed to purchase Dun Laoghaire Golf Club, the controversy surrounding the sale of the 78-acre site hasn’t gone away.

The Cosgrave Property Group in 2001 proposed to buy the site in the south Dublin suburb in a deal that valued the club at €100 million.

The Cosgraves offered the club a new300-acre site and clubhouse on the Dublin/Wicklow border and a cash sweetener of €20 million.

The deal was sealed when 80 per cent of the club’s members voted in favour at a specially convened meeting in June 2002. But it took a little longer for the Cosgraves to begin developing the Dun Laoghaire site. First, they had to ensure that the old golf club was rezoned for development in the teeth of fierce local opposition.

Former environment minister Martin Cullen directed the council to rezone more land in the area to provide extra housing. It wasn’t until 2008 that Cosgraves finally got planning permission.

But the development is now back in the news as the first phase is currently under construction, while the planning authorities are considering applications for two subsequent phases.

Fine Gael councillor John Bailey told the Insider that Cosgraves and Hooke & MacDonald - estate agents for the developer - which had both donated €2,500 to his 2007 election campaign, had ‘‘no influence’’ over him. ‘‘I am my own person and I do my own thing,” he said.

Bailey was speaking after the Sunday Tribune reported last month that, while he had told voters he had objected to An Bord Pleanála about the subsequent phases of the development, the appeals body confirmed it had received no such correspondence.

Bailey admitted his objection had gone missing, but said this was the only one of his objections ever to have done so, and that he had been against the development all along.

But it isn’t just the politics behind the golf club development that is in focus. Its finances are also in the spotlight.

One former member has continued to ask awkward questions about whether the golf club got market value for the lands.

The price paid by Cosgraves for the Dun Laoghaire lands in 2002 lands represented about €1.28 million an acre. That compares unfavourably with the €2.75 million per acre paid by financier Derek Quinlan for the Grange site in the Stillorgan Road area of south county Dublin, 18 months earlier.

Derek Montgomery, president of the Golf Club and a former member of the relocation committee, did not respond to several requests for comment.

Meanwhile, it has emerged that Dun Laoghaire Golf Club had an operating deficit of almost €608,000 in 2009, according to the accounts presented to members of the golf club at its agm in January. The accounts also show that the club is projected to have an operating deficit of €916,000 in 2010.

Happily for the members, last year’s losses were offset by about €1 million in investment income, while this year’s losses are expected to be offset by investment income of about €962,000.This income derives from the investment of the €20million cash paid over by Cosgraves to the club as part of the original €100 million deal.

However, there is confusion about whether the investment income can be used in this manner given the conditions attaching to the €20 million capital gains tax exemption which Dun Laoghaire golf club obtained prior to selling the lands to Cosgraves. The tax exemption was obtained under section 235 of the 1997 Taxes Consolidation Act provided the club met certain conditions.

Some observers believe those conditions would preclude Dun Laoghaire Golf Club from using income from the sale of lands effectively to subsidise the memberships. According to the minutes of the 2009 agm of the Golf Club, the question of whether the golf club was tax-compliant was raised by one member.

Dan Delaney ‘‘asked whether the club was compliant with the instruction of the Revenue Commissioners with regard to the ring-fencing of the capital sum on the sale of the old land in Dun Laoghaire and the Capital Gains Tax exemption. He queried the use of the interest derived from the capital sum which he believed was still a grey area,” the minutes state.

In reply, Pat Nevin, chairman of the audit committee, said that the board was confident that ‘‘there are no grey areas with regard to the treatment of the investment income.

‘‘The board has worked closely with its taxation advisers, Deloitte & Touche, its solicitors Arthur Cox and the club auditors Veldon Tait, and the board is 100 per cent confident that we are fully compliant with the Revenue’’. But the Revenue Commissioners have given apparently contradictory messages on this question.

In February 2009, the sports section of the Revenue Commissioners in Nenagh advised in writing that ‘‘members of a sporting body should not benefit directly or indirectly from any lump sum payment received by the body or as a result of the interest accruing on the investment of such a lump sum’’.

However, in response to a separate request, the Revenue said (in a letter dated December 3, 2009) that ‘‘it would be quite legitimate for a sports body to use its income, including income on a capital sum as it clearly fulfils the purpose of promoting amateur games or sport’’.

When asked to explain this apparent U-turn, a spokesman for the Revenue Commissioners said: ‘‘The exemption from tax applies to so much of the income of an approved body of persons as is shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners to be income which has been or will be applied to the sole purpose of promoting athletic or amateur games or sports. Each case would be judged on its merits in determining if the application of its income is in accordance with this provision.”

Confused? You’re not alone.

Some things, however, are crystal-clear.

Cosgraves appears to have got the Dun Laoghaire land at a good price by 2002 standards; it also got planning permission despite strong local opposition having benefited from Cullen’s changes to the wider plan for the area; Bailey received funds to support his election campaign from the developer whose application he insists he opposed; the club got a spanking new premises; the taxpayer lost out on the €20 million in capital gains tax that would normally have accrued from such a deal because the club got a tax exemption; the funds that would have been paid to the Revenue Commisisoners are being viewed by some as subsidising the subscriptions of the generally well-heeled members of the golf club; and Dun Laoghaire is about to get hundreds of new houses and apartments, at a time when there is already an oversupply.

www.kathleenbarrington.blogspot.com

copacetic

interesting take on it, the new course has potential but is dead most of the time, as is the clubhouse. The green fees are also crazy for an average enough new parkland layout that hasn't bedded in yet. It looks like the running costs will always be much more than what they bring in from members fees and bar/green fees income.

1916

Just noticed on their web site there is full membership available, wonder what the joining fee is

http://www.dunlaoghairegolfclub.ie/clubnews/view/membership_enquiries_-_update/

copacetic

It's 20k or something and I understand there are little or no takers.

Kevinmarkham

"Cosgraves appear to have got the Dun Laoghaire land at a good price by 2002 standards"

The rumour I heard was that a couple of the club's big boys allegedly (does that cover me?) had their houses purchased at 'interesting' prices by Cosgrave, to help move the deal along

heavyballs

copacetic wrote: »

new parkland layout that hasn't bedded in yet.

please explain,
yes there are a lot of saplings but in terms of the course and the grass on the greens and fairways it's well bedded in
re: the article
For anyone who knows any members this is old news,they still take in roughly 900k in memberships so i still reckon there's clubs out there in worse financial crisis regardless of how the tax situation works out

1916

heavyballs wrote: »

For anyone who knows any members this is old news,they still take in roughly 900k in memberships so i still reckon there's clubs out there in worse financial crisis regardless of how the tax situation works out

Maybe, but based on the losses, its taking nearly €2m p.a. to run the club, thats a big gap to close

heavyballs

1916 wrote: »

Maybe, but based on the losses, its taking nearly €2m p.a. to run the club, thats a big gap to close

fair point,i think a few of the green keepers were let go a couple of months ago and there are other areas where they could trim,
A bit like Bray gc the clubhouse is to big,they have quite a lot of old members so within the next 5 years they'll have to open it up to yearly subs just like druids glen and heath,oh i know a couple of members up there that will puke all over their paisley neckerchiefs with the thoughts of that happening

copacetic

heavyballs wrote: »

please explain,
yes there are a lot of saplings but in terms of the course and the grass on the greens and fairways it's well bedded in
re: the article
For anyone who knows any members this is old news,they still take in roughly 900k in memberships so i still reckon there's clubs out there in worse financial crisis regardless of how the tax situation works out

I meant bedded in in maturity terms. Wispy, non existant rough, no trees to speak off. Little or no penalty for missing any fairways, unless you hit water etc etc. It's got potential to be a good course, currently it's a 'new', very open course, built on land with little or no decent natural features to begin with. It'll be 5 or 10 years before it is a premium course. Charging premium fees for playing it means they don't have much income coming in from it. The clubhouse etc is very nice, but a bit over the top, it's like a ghostown most of the time, although I've never been on a saturday..

Don't get me wrong, it's a castleknock or lutrellstown type of course. Worth 50 or so for a nice round.

heavyballs

copacetic wrote: »

Charging premium fees for playing it means they don't have much income coming in from it.

point taken,it's too dear,are you aware they have a deal for members that's proving quite popular
it's €120 for a four ball and a steak meal after(obviously 1 member has to play)that's good value but a couple of members i've talked to can't understand why they don't open it up to the public
also they do quite good rates for society's,one i know of got it for €50 this year,but tbh advertising rates like they do would put you off even asking for a cheaper rate
it's a very dry course so they should do green fee deals mid week as the footfall wouldn't affect the course like most courses

copacetic

heavyballs wrote: »

point taken,it's too dear,are you aware they have a deal for members that's proving quite popular
it's €120 for a four ball and a steak meal after(obviously 1 member has to play)that's good value but a couple of members i've talked to can't understand why they don't open it up to the public
also they do quite good rates for society's,one i know of got it for €50 this year,but tbh advertising rates like they do would put you off even asking for a cheaper rate
it's a very dry course so they should do green fee deals mid week as the footfall wouldn't affect the course like most courses

I only know a couple of members vaguely, but that does sound decent value. I live quite nearby and would definitely play it once a month or so if there were decent fees, maybe more often if they had good midweek rates in the summer. Powerscourt is their nearest competition really and it's a much better deal.

The most surprising thing for me was how quiet it is , thats really what I don't understand about the costs, it's not like it's busy, seems like they could easily take 5 or 10 green fee groups at 150-200 a go a day without even noticing. Even on a 5 day week thats a lot of income.

ShriekingSheet

I played it a few times last summer. They hosted Senior Cup there and it went down well from most of the players I spoke to.

I agree with Copacetic's points on the rough being too light. It is fairly open, but at the same time, I think in Ireland we have a habit of comparing modern courses to our old order of the likes of old Dun Laoghaire, Clontarf and Castle, which are all short and densely tree-lined. Sure, simply because trees take time & money, many new courses are too open, but I found new DL very challenging from the tee, in the same way K Smurfit would be, which is also pretty "open". It's such a common criticism levelled at so many new courses, and I'm just wary of buying too much into the "ah sure you can hit it anywhere" point.

Of course, I can speak with great authority on this subject, having gone to these places and hit loose drives left, right and centre... and no, turns out you can't hit it anywhere I take the point that aesthetically, an open course lacks a little versus a tree-lined one. Headfort New is one of the few courses I can think of that's both tight and long.

Hyperbole aside, I'd say new Dun Laoghaire is at least a million billion times better than Luttrellstown (yet to play C-Knock). It's made for TV, some great drama holes. And have conflicting experience of Cop's point on it being "dead" above. I was trying to get out last summer midweek or weekend and found it very, very difficult.

Obni

copacetic wrote: »

It's 20k or something and I understand there are little or no takers.

Although it doesn't explicitly state it on the website, I understand that the annual intake of full members is from the pool of pavillion members, and that you have to bide your time as a pavillion member for a number of years before you'll be successful in moving to full membership. A bit anachronistic for my tastes.

copacetic

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I played it a few times last summer. They hosted Senior Cup there and it went down well from most of the players I spoke to.

I agree with Copacetic's points on the rough being too light. It is fairly open, but at the same time, I think in Ireland we have a habit of comparing modern courses to our old order of the likes of old Dun Laoghaire, Clontarf and Castle, which are all short and densely tree-lined. Sure, simply because trees take time & money, many new courses are too open, but I found new DL very challenging from the tee, in the same way K Smurfit would be, which is also pretty "open". It's such a common criticism levelled at so many new courses, and I'm just wary of buying too much into the "ah sure you can hit it anywhere" point.

Of course, I can speak with great authority on this subject, having gone to these places and hit loose drives left, right and centre... and no, turns out you can't hit it anywhere I take the point that aesthetically, an open course lacks a little versus a tree-lined one. Headfort New is one of the few courses I can think of that's both tight and long.

Hyperbole aside, I'd say new Dun Laoghaire is at least a million billion times better than Luttrellstown (yet to play C-Knock). It's made for TV, some great drama holes. And have conflicting experience of Cop's point on it being "dead" above. I was trying to get out last summer midweek or weekend and found it very, very difficult.

I like the bold bits! Different strokes and all that. I just think it's very overpriced for what it is. I take all your points about newer courses though and having said it's very open etc, doesn't mean I also didn't find a way to feck it up!

dnjoyce

Hyperbole aside, I'd say new Dun Laoghaire is at least a million billion times better than Luttrellstown (yet to play C-Knock).

Unless I'm missing some sarcastic tones, I really doubt this to be true. I haven't played DL but having played Luttrelstown on many ocassions there isn't a course in the country (that I've played) that could claim to be even twice as good as Luttrelstown - there are plenty "better" but it is a fantastic course that could be included in any top 10 of parklands in the country and not be scoffed at.

Swingguru

Played here last Autumn with a member in one of their mid-week Opens. Found the course to be in great shape and bedding in well. Played from the more forward tee's and had serious issues with the landing areas (or lack of them) when playing......simply too little room and kept over shooting the runway! On a number of the holes instead of hitting driver I had to hit a hybrid to just stay on the fairway. That was the only real critic I had (but would have easily been solved if the comp had have been off the back tees). The rough was plenty tick and not so forgiving, and the sheer amount of land available means that a pulled drive isn't landing on another fairway, more likely deep rough. The practice facilities would give Carton a run for their money! If I was a junior again I would live up there all summer. I wonder what their junior development policy is like?

BUACHAILL

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I played it a few times last summer. They hosted Senior Cup there and it went down well from most of the players I spoke to.

I agree with Copacetic's points on the rough being too light. It is fairly open, but at the same time, I think in Ireland we have a habit of comparing modern courses to our old order of the likes of old Dun Laoghaire, Clontarf and Castle, which are all short and densely tree-lined. Sure, simply because trees take time & money, many new courses are too open, but I found new DL very challenging from the tee, in the same way K Smurfit would be, which is also pretty "open". It's such a common criticism levelled at so many new courses, and I'm just wary of buying too much into the "ah sure you can hit it anywhere" point.

Of course, I can speak with great authority on this subject, having gone to these places and hit loose drives left, right and centre... and no, turns out you can't hit it anywhere I take the point that aesthetically, an open course lacks a little versus a tree-lined one. Headfort New is one of the few courses I can think of that's both tight and long.

Hyperbole aside, I'd say new Dun Laoghaire is at least a million billion times better than Luttrellstown (yet to play C-Knock). It's made for TV, some great drama holes. And have conflicting experience of Cop's point on it being "dead" above. I was trying to get out last summer midweek or weekend and found it very, very difficult.

Can I just make the point on the rough !! I was lucky enough to be one of the first visitors to play the course when it opened and the rough was nasty, anywhere but on the fairway and you had some job even finding the ball let alone getting back into play ! yes the course lacks big mature trees but it has plenty of other hazards to keep you thinking. The members found it so tough in the beginning that they had no option to lighten up the rough and cut it all back. That is fact, as I know one of the green keepers up there and having played it myself and assure you it can be turned into a nasty beast very quickly.

heavyballs

BUACHAILL wrote: »

Can I just make the point on the rough !! I was lucky enough to be one of the first visitors to play the course when it opened and the rough was nasty, anywhere but on the fairway and you had some job even finding the ball let alone getting back into play ! yes the course lacks big mature trees but it has plenty of other hazards to keep you thinking. The members found it so tough in the beginning that they had no option to lighten up the rough and cut it all back. That is fact, as I know one of the green keepers up there and having played it myself and assure you it can be turned into a nasty beast very quickly.

thats correct
played there recently and even though there's not a lot of growth the rough up there is a lot more punishing than it looks,just really tough to get through
also,if you're playing off the white sticks i dn't think there's a tougher set of par 3's in the area if you play the bottom and middle course especially

montytheliar

Interesting article which appears well researched.

Is the taxpayer subsidising the dun laoghaire member's weekly game of golf by the use of interest which according to Barrington the Revenue appear to be confused about? It is scandelous that members of a rich golf club should have their subscriptions subsidised by the taxpayer when Social Welfare receipients are having their entitlements cut???

Who is regulating the Revenue on this issue? What about the politicians? Can the tax legislation be so vague? Anyway why is a rich club like dun laoghaire tax exempt???

I hear the ex CEO of Bank of Ireland Brian Goggin is a member as well as Bertie's bank advisor, Paddy Strong. Senator Eugene Regan is another member. I don't think these people are exactly on the bread-line!

heavyballs

montytheliar wrote: »

Interesting article which appears well researched.

Is the taxpayer subsidising the dun laoghaire member's weekly game of golf by the use of interest which according to Barrington the Revenue appear to be confused about? It is scandelous that members of a rich golf club should have their subscriptions subsidised by the taxpayer when Social Welfare receipients are having their entitlements cut???

Who is regulating the Revenue on this issue? What about the politicians? Can the tax legislation be so vague? Anyway why is a rich club like dun laoghaire tax exempt???

I hear the ex CEO of Bank of Ireland Brian Goggin is a member as well as Bertie's bank advisor, Paddy Strong. Senator Eugene Regan is another member. I don't think these people are exactly on the bread-line!

that's a power packed first post,but i don't have the time to answer the Q's above as it would require a phone call,and btw leave Gogo alone,he's an oul mate of mine,

Daithio9

montytheliar wrote: »

Interesting article which appears well researched.

Is the taxpayer subsidising the dun laoghaire member's weekly game of golf by the use of interest which according to Barrington the Revenue appear to be confused about? It is scandelous that members of a rich golf club should have their subscriptions subsidised by the taxpayer when Social Welfare receipients are having their entitlements cut???

Who is regulating the Revenue on this issue? What about the politicians? Can the tax legislation be so vague? Anyway why is a rich club like dun laoghaire tax exempt???

I hear the ex CEO of Bank of Ireland Brian Goggin is a member as well as Bertie's bank advisor, Paddy Strong. Senator Eugene Regan is another member. I don't think these people are exactly on the bread-line!

That guy who wrote that article is a prat, why is he picking on the nice people of DL G.C.?
I'd say he was refused membership there and is now venting in his column, well he can kiss goodbye to any chance of ever been accepted there now.

Conor J

I wanted to play Dun Laoghaire GC last summer, Its just up the road from me.
But the prices are astronomical, really, for a course of 27 holes, they could really do some great deals, especially if they have not been busy.

Drop the prices, and that place would do a great trade. They are trying to be too exclusive for their own good imo.

fred funk }{

the prices are astronomical

Out of interest, how much is a green fee?

heavyballs

Conor J wrote: »

I wanted to play Dun Laoghaire GC last summer, Its just up the road from me.
But the prices are astronomical, really, for a course of 27 holes, they could really do some great deals, especially if they have not been busy.

Drop the prices, and that place would do a great trade. They are trying to be too exclusive for their own good imo.

do you not know any members?,i play up there every couple of weeks in the singles comp on a Wednesday,they charge €15 ,cheaper than most

how much do Powerscourt charge for example,not a lot better than DL imo,call up,the guys in the shop are sound,they won't charge you full price,explain you're local and you'd be interestd in playing once a month or so if it was a bit cheaper,

Conor J

heavyballs wrote: »

do you not know any members?,i play up there every couple of weeks in the singles comp on a Wednesday,they charge €15 ,cheaper than most

how much do Powerscourt charge for example,not a lot better than DL imo,call up,the guys in the shop are sound,they won't charge you full price,explain you're local and you'd be interestd in playing once a month or so if it was a bit cheaper,

might just do that.

tbf, last year i was just getting into my stride, had a break of a few years. this year i hope to be playing better golf, will head up there in the summer.

playing The European Club next month

jimjo

heavyballs wrote: »

do you not know any members?,i play up there every couple of weeks in the singles comp on a Wednesday,they charge €15 ,cheaper than most

Thats very cheap in comparison to the green fee prices on their website. I presume thats a semi open, members inviting guests, you have to be invited to play type of thing?

heavyballs

jimjo wrote: »

Thats very cheap in comparison to the green fee prices on their website. I presume thats a semi open, members inviting guests, you have to be invited to play type of thing?

correct,hopefully they'll cop on a bit this year,i mean a scr cup for all sections over the summer would net them some serious cash,and i think it would be popular with the really good players as it's a real test off the back sticks
if anyone can name a tougher set of par 3's(bottom,middle nines)in the country from the back i'd like to know,they're way too long imo

jimjo

From the looks of their scorecard a few of the par 3's are 225 odd yards and one 250 yards off the backs (blue tees), long alright, wouldn't fancy that too much into the wind.

heavyballs

jimjo wrote: »

From the looks of their scorecard a few of the par 3's are 225 odd yards and one 250 yards off the backs (blue tees), long alright, wouldn't fancy that too much into the wind.

the crazy thing on both play into the prevailing wind from Enniskerry direction,most of the old members play 1 of the par 3's off the yellow as a par 4,i kid you not

thegen

Between Gogos mates and members promoting it I don't think it willl Have any problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!