Problem with Salamander pump

run_Forrest_run

NOTE: I've previously posted this in the DIY section, mods feel free to remove it from the DIY forum..

Hi all,
recently we've had the attic converted and there is now a shower up there. The house is a bungalow with the hot water cylinder on the ground floor and the cold water tank is up in the attic at the same level as the new shower.

So, the lad doing the work (who wasn't a true plumber...part of my problem..long story) fitted a Salamander negative head pump beside the hot water cylinder. The pump only drives the new shower and the wash basin in the same shower room, nothing else in the house.

So the shower was never right. After a minute or two the hot water pressure would just fall off and it would go to a trickle. If I switched the mixer shower to all cold then the pressure would pick up...but no hot water even though there is plenty of hot water in the cylinder.

So the guy who did the work sent out a plumber. He saw there was no flange fitted in the hot water cylinder so he fit one. I thought my problems were solved but no such luck, the problem is still there.

Now I haven't had the plumber back yet as I want to know more about what can be causing the problem.
I really think there is air in the system because the mixer bar often emits a sound and then the hot water pressure drops shortly after hearing the noise.
It's hard to describe but it's so annoying!

The plumber then said it may need a mixer valve down at the pump...now I don't know, isn't there already a mixer at the shower level and wouldn't this do the job. The plumber said the lack of a mixer valve could introduce very hot water into the pump which could damage the seals in the pump. But shouldn't the pump be able to manage temperatures of water from a standard domestic cylinder?

I dunno, I still feel air is at play here but I can't understand how air is getting in. Any ideas folks, I'd really appreciate some feedback as I'm going mad here!

jesijoe

hi exactly where has he taken/teed hot supply for pump . if it is from the expansion pipe at top of cylinder the pump will draw air from expansion . u need to use an essex flange scenario where the hot supply is taken from an outlet about 6-8 inches down from expansion therefore not drawing air. Check to see if your cylinder has such an outlet.

run_Forrest_run

jesijoe wrote: »

hi exactly where has he taken/teed hot supply for pump . if it is from the expansion pipe at top of cylinder the pump will draw air from expansion . u need to use an essex flange scenario where the hot supply is taken from an outlet about 6-8 inches down from expansion therefore not drawing air. Check to see if your cylinder has such an outlet.

it does indeed. initially the cowboy who fitted the pump didn't fit an essex flange but the plumber who has seen it since has fitted one, and yes, having seen it it goes down into the cylinder about 6-8 inches as you say.

This didn't fix the problem.
One thing has occurred to me recently. The problem only happens when there is very hot water in the cylinder. If the heating has been off for a few hours and the water is not as hot in the tank I've noticed the shower works fine!
So, I'm wondering does the pump have some shut off valve if the water temp is over a certain value...sounds odd I know but I'm really puzzled with this one.

jesijoe

mmmm possible, a phone call to the manufacturer would soon clarify that . might i also suggest a cylinder stat and a motorised valve,to shut the coil off ,really there is no need for ur water to be that hot and stat can be set at 60- 70degrees ,its a saving on energy no matter what .
i wonder is the water kettling(bubbling in pipe possiblycreating air) .... but for this to happen your water would want to be scalding
hope this helps

BTW whats heating the water?

run_Forrest_run

jesijoe wrote: »

mmmm possible, a phone call to the manufacturer would soon clarify that . might i also suggest a cylinder stat and a motorised valve,to shut the coil off ,really there is no need for ur water to be that hot and stat can be set at 60- 70degrees ,its a saving on energy no matter what .
i wonder is the water kettling(bubbling in pipe possiblycreating air) .... but for this to happen your water would want to be scalding
hope this helps

BTW whats heating the water?

thanks for the feedback, some good things to think about. the cylinder is being heated by the gas central heating. It comes on at 6am for 2 hours and it's well hot after that. Then in the evening it's on again for about 3 hours.
Even if a stat was fitted would it save much if the central heating was on anyway or is the extra gas required to heat the water that significant over a 2-3 hour period?

jesijoe

it will definitely save cash in the long run (how much and over what length of time is another question )
back to the pump, you say the prob seems to be with shower so i presume its on the hot tap aswell ---turn water off, disconnect tap and try running it into a bucket and see if that works, if it does, try same with shower(just be careful),if you get water like you should expect, possible faulty shower
now if you dont get water shooting out like it should
Can you check pipework -- it should be slightly rising all the way to shower and have no kinks in it(very easy for a bent hot pipe to kink)
Check for any valves that arent fully open (including the ones on the flexi pipe on the pump itself)
If its none of these its possible theres a fault with the pump on the vessel side because it is behaving like a positive head pump on the hot side only
Well i hope any of this helps, heres the link to salamander
http://www.salamander-pumps.com/information/pump-fault-finder.html

run_Forrest_run

jesijoe wrote: »

it will definitely save cash in the long run (how much and over what length of time is another question )
back to the pump, you say the prob seems to be with shower so i presume its on the hot tap aswell ---turn water off, disconnect tap and try running it into a bucket and see if that works, if it does, try same with shower(just be careful),if you get water like you should expect, possible faulty shower
now if you dont get water shooting out like it should
Can you check pipework -- it should be slightly rising all the way to shower and have no kinks in it(very easy for a bent hot pipe to kink)
Check for any valves that arent fully open (including the ones on the flexi pipe on the pump itself)
If its none of these its possible theres a fault with the pump on the vessel side because it is behaving like a positive head pump on the hot side only
Well i hope any of this helps, heres the link to salamander
http://www.salamander-pumps.com/information/pump-fault-finder.html

about the water temp, I have adjusted the temp on the boiler (a new HE condenser boiler) to 55 degrees.
I then tested the shower this morning and I was getting feck all hot water in the shower but it definitely was an air block...so I turned it off and turned on the hot tap and it spat a bit and eventually went hot. So I went back to the shower and turned it on and lo-and-behold, it was perfect.

So I'm wondering is it a case of the water being too hot and possibly introducing kettling and taking air into the system. However why then does the tap in the wash basin handle these air blocks better than the shower unit?
The tap splutters a bit but eventually recovers whereas the shower never recovers from such an air block.

Might be hard to check pipework as it's all mainly concealed between walls but from what I can see there are no kinks but I may be missing something directly behind shower mixer unit.

The plumber is suggesting he fit a HWS TMV Controller (stat controller) to regulate the temp of the water coming into the pump...I dunno if this will help really, especially if I have already set the temp of the water to 55 degrees at the boiler.

jesijoe

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

about the water temp, I have adjusted the temp on the boiler (a new HE condenser boiler) to 55 degrees.
I then tested the shower this morning and I was getting feck all hot water in the shower but it definitely was an air block...so I turned it off and turned on the hot tap and it spat a bit and eventually went hot. So I went back to the shower and turned it on and lo-and-behold, it was perfect.

So I'm wondering is it a case of the water being too hot and possibly introducing kettling and taking air into the system. However why then does the tap in the wash basin handle these air blocks better than the shower unit?
The tap splutters a bit but eventually recovers whereas the shower never recovers from such an air block.

Might be hard to check pipework as it's all mainly concealed between walls but from what I can see there are no kinks but I may be missing something directly behind shower mixer unit.

The plumber is suggesting he fit a HWS TMV Controller (stat controller) to regulate the temp of the water coming into the pump...I dunno if this will help really, especially if I have already set the temp of the water to 55 degrees at the boiler.

ur water would want to be scalding for kettling to occur
id hold off on stat just yet
i really think u have aproblem with the 'negative' head on your pump .its behaving just like a positive pump would in the same situation
the pump has enough pressure to send to taps (im betting tap is not much higher than cold water storage) but not enough to send it direct to shower(unlesss you turn on tap to coax it along
this is definitly a negative head pump??with a silver expansion bottle attached to it
if it is you might try a non return valve on the hot supply into pump - to keep enough pressure on pumpto get it up to showerhead-no guarunteees tho
failing that time for a callout from salamnder agent
best of luck
hope this helps

run_Forrest_run

jesijoe wrote: »

ur water would want to be scalding for kettling to occur
id hold off on stat just yet
i really think u have aproblem with the 'negative' head on your pump .its behaving just like a positive pump would in the same situation
the pump has enough pressure to send to taps (im betting tap is not much higher than cold water storage) but not enough to send it direct to shower(unlesss you turn on tap to coax it along
this is definitly a negative head pump??with a silver expansion bottle attached to it
if it is you might try a non return valve on the hot supply into pump - to keep enough pressure on pumpto get it up to showerhead-no guarunteees tho
failing that time for a callout from salamnder agent
best of luck
hope this helps

yes you are right, the tap is not much higher (if higher at all!) than the cold water tank.
Yes, it's a negative head alright, has the silver expansion chamber attached to the side...here is the model I believe: http://www.tapstore.com/acatalog/salamander-esp-50-cpv-twin-1-5-bar-pump.html

jesijoe

this could be summat real simple is there a switch or valve on it to change from positive to negative because yours is in positive head mode ,it should say in manual
if it aint straight forward you may have to contact salamander tech guys(may be a prob with pcb and its stuck in positive head mode)
best of luck
btw your plumber should have gone thru all this and got to the bottom of it

run_Forrest_run

jesijoe wrote: »

this could be summat real simple is there a switch or valve on it to change from positive to negative because yours is in positive head mode ,it should say in manual
if it aint straight forward you may have to contact salamander tech guys(may be a prob with pcb and its stuck in positive head mode)
best of luck
btw your plumber should have gone thru all this and got to the bottom of it

plumber is still on the case. I'm going to go ahead and let him run with his mixer valve idea and see if that helps. If not I will be back on to him. ah it's all [costly] fun!

jesijoe

listen i need me head tested, its obvious and i should have twigged it earlier ur expansion bottle needs to filled with air, so look for an air nipple and fill
simple as that

run_Forrest_run

jesijoe wrote: »

listen i need me head tested, its obvious and i should have twigged it earlier ur expansion bottle needs to filled with air, so look for an air nipple and fill
simple as that

i thought about that ages ago but assumed since the plumber(s) never did that I assumed all was OK with the expansion chamber.
If this was the case though wouldn't I have problems all the time and with both hot and cold? My problem is intermittent and only with the hot water.

JohnnieK

I think the TMV is the way to go. If your hot water is not controlled then the pump will not like this. In the manufactures instructions it states the hot water must not get above 65oC or pump performance will be affected.

If you can get a hold of a car foot pump and attach it to the test nipple on the expansion vessel it will tell you what pressure it is at. It should be above 1bar. It will state it on the badge. I dont think this is the problem though because as you say the water would not go up that far if the vessel was faulty.

jesijoe

yes but the water is going as far as tap which is same level as water tank (positive head operation)so the pump is working
once the pump comes on at all it will push to the shower for awhile , its getting the pump to stay on thats the prob
also the expansion chamber must be a split scenario if the cold side is working
save urself a few bob(60euro) and put the foot pump on it

run_Forrest_run

well I will track down a footpump and do as ye say lads but according to the plumber and the suppliers of the Salamander pump apparently a TMV should always be fitted with the pump...pity the idiot who fitted the pump in the first place (who wasn't a plumber) didn't know this (he also never fitted an S flange!).

jesijoe

well best of luck any ways
let us know how ya get on

items

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

NOTE: I've previously posted this in the DIY section, mods feel free to remove it from the DIY forum..

Hi all,
recently we've had the attic converted and there is now a shower up there. The house is a bungalow with the hot water cylinder on the ground floor and the cold water tank is up in the attic at the same level as the new shower.

So, the lad doing the work (who wasn't a true plumber...part of my problem..long story) fitted a Salamander negative head pump beside the hot water cylinder. The pump only drives the new shower and the wash basin in the same shower room, nothing else in the house.

So the shower was never right. After a minute or two the hot water pressure would just fall off and it would go to a trickle. If I switched the mixer shower to all cold then the pressure would pick up...but no hot water even though there is plenty of hot water in the cylinder.

So the guy who did the work sent out a plumber. He saw there was no flange fitted in the hot water cylinder so he fit one. I thought my problems were solved but no such luck, the problem is still there.

Now I haven't had the plumber back yet as I want to know more about what can be causing the problem.
I really think there is air in the system because the mixer bar often emits a sound and then the hot water pressure drops shortly after hearing the noise.
It's hard to describe but it's so annoying!

The plumber then said it may need a mixer valve down at the pump...now I don't know, isn't there already a mixer at the shower level and wouldn't this do the job. The plumber said the lack of a mixer valve could introduce very hot water into the pump which could damage the seals in the pump. But shouldn't the pump be able to manage temperatures of water from a standard domestic cylinder?

I dunno, I still feel air is at play here but I can't understand how air is getting in. Any ideas folks, I'd really appreciate some feedback as I'm going mad here!

Plenty of answers to your question so I'll take it you've an idea on the problem. Two or three years ago I spent many a week completely removing salamander pumps from dozens of apartments due to constant problems. Some worked fine, others give all kinds of trouble. I found out the ones that worked ok had a lower temperature setting on immersion, the pumps that gave trouble had a higher temp setting on immersion.

The salamander pumps I had to replace were made of plastic and couldn't withstand excessive hot water (above 65c) due to expansion and contraction and God knows what else so if your salamander pump is plastic go easy on hot water temperature, if at all possible replace entire pump with a solid one, brass or steel to be on the safe side.

Use a dedicated pump flange for hot water and a dedicated cold supply, include 4 on / off valves fitted as close to pump possible If you still have trouble its possible to take a direct feed from cylinder by drilling a hole out of cylinder and installing a 3/4" 350, this is a job for a pro so steer clear of the cowboys.

Best of luck.

joemc12

The problem is nothing to do with the material the pump is made from, plastic brass etc etc. Thats complete crap. Salamander polymer bodies can cope with temps up tp 350 deg c. The reason shower pumps are rated at a max of 65 deg c is because thats the point air and water seperates. (look in your kettle as it nears the boil and notice air bubbles forming like crazy). Your cylinder is producing that much air that is airlocking the pipe work and the negative head switching is fooled into thinking its pumping against a closed outlet hence your hot pressure drops right off. The cylinder stat needs to be set between 55 and 65 MAX! Or else you'll just keep having cavitation. The other option is a salamander HWS-TMV blending valve to regulate the temperature. The cavitation(hot air) is simply airlocking the pipework and at the same time the pump is trying to pump hot air with no water coming through. Thats very bad for the pump and it will eventually crack the silicone carbide seals and leak due to the lack of lubrication from lack of water passing through the pump. The problem with a lot of plumbers (Not all plumbers) is they throw the pump in to hotpress and if water comes out the far end job done. Pumps need a little more technical know how unfortunately. If you need further information contact MT Agencies in dublin on 01=8643363 and dial ext 2 for service. These lads will be more than happy to chat to you or even advise your plumber on how to rectify this air problem.

run_Forrest_run

joemc12 wrote: »

The problem is nothing to do with the material the pump is made from, plastic brass etc etc. Thats complete crap. Salamander polymer bodies can cope with temps up tp 350 deg c. The reason shower pumps are rated at a max of 65 deg c is because thats the point air and water seperates. (look in your kettle as it nears the boil and notice air bubbles forming like crazy). Your cylinder is producing that much air that is airlocking the pipe work and the negative head switching is fooled into thinking its pumping against a closed outlet hence your hot pressure drops right off. The cylinder stat needs to be set between 55 and 65 MAX! Or else you'll just keep having cavitation. The other option is a salamander HWS-TMV blending valve to regulate the temperature. The cavitation(hot air) is simply airlocking the pipework and at the same time the pump is trying to pump hot air with no water coming through. Thats very bad for the pump and it will eventually crack the silicone carbide seals and leak due to the lack of lubrication from lack of water passing through the pump. The problem with a lot of plumbers (Not all plumbers) is they throw the pump in to hotpress and if water comes out the far end job done. Pumps need a little more technical know how unfortunately. If you need further information contact MT Agencies in dublin on 01=8643363 and dial ext 2 for service. These lads will be more than happy to chat to you or even advise your plumber on how to rectify this air problem.

thanks for that excellent info, I've yet to have it fixed properly but I'm not using it at the moment so it won't be damaged.

joemc12

I wouldn't leave it sit unsorted too long because there is only a two year warranty on the pump plus all shower pumps can seize from lack of use. I work for MT agencies (Irish salamander distributor) and our policy is to do a service call within the warranty period if there is an issue. This first call will be free but only within the two year period. Do this and the problem will be diagnosed by a qualified salamander service engineer, if indeed it is a faulty pump you'll be entitled to a replacement or if it turns out to be an install issue the engineer will write up a report on how your plumber can rectify the problem. ESP pumps are not cheap and it should be doing the job you bought it for. Contact us on 01-8643363 and dial 2 for service, your details will be taken and a service call will follow to diagnose the problem. Joe McDermott is my name and i'm the northern area account manager for MT Agencies and we believe after sales service is key to maintaining our brands so please contact us before the two period expires. Regards Joe

run_Forrest_run

joemc12 wrote: »

I wouldn't leave it sit unsorted too long because there is only a two year warranty on the pump plus all shower pumps can seize from lack of use. I work for MT agencies (Irish salamander distributor) and our policy is to do a service call within the warranty period if there is an issue. This first call will be free but only within the two year period. Do this and the problem will be diagnosed by a qualified salamander service engineer, if indeed it is a faulty pump you'll be entitled to a replacement or if it turns out to be an install issue the engineer will write up a report on how your plumber can rectify the problem. ESP pumps are not cheap and it should be doing the job you bought it for. Contact us on 01-8643363 and dial 2 for service, your details will be taken and a service call will follow to diagnose the problem. Joe McDermott is my name and i'm the northern area account manager for MT Agencies and we believe after sales service is key to maintaining our brands so please contact us before the two period expires. Regards Joe

thanks a million Joe, unfortunately I actually think I may be already gone past the warranty period (didn't use the shower for a good while due to needing to save up for tiling etc!) but hey, I'll do whatever it takes to fix it now at this stage and I'm not best pleased with the guy who fitted it in the first place, he's not being helpful at all.

flowerific

Hi Joe, Glad i came across this post while googling Salamander pumps.
I bought my Salamander Negitive Head pump from a UK supplier online 2months ago. It was working fine until about 5 days ago when Fingal council started turning on and off our mains water to conserve water. I had the same problem as the other poster was having. Paid for the same plumber who installed it to clear the airlock this eve. But its still not working and the 3rd red light comes on. I checked the warrenty guide and it says 3rd red light is due to excessive hot water, I have turned my boiler termistate right down now in the hope that this will help and have my heating/water turned off.
Anyway My question is Does my Slamander Warrenty cover me in Ireland if i bought pump from a UK supplier. Can i get the free service call from MT ireland if my pump does not work
Thanks