Magpies, Feral cats and Modern farming. Whats the bigger danger to wild birds?

stevoman

Following some debate in another thread i would like to see what other people views are on this subject. What do people feel is the biggest threat to songbirds,ground nesting birds?

I myself have i admit has trapped and hunted magpies and greycrows in the past as i have been led to beleive that they were a greater threat (espeically Magpies) to songbirds and ground nesting birds. I have always been aware that Feral cats do cause damage but to what extent?

I would like to know what other peoples views are on this subject as i think it does matter as regards conservation and to see some facts and educate others like myself, who may or may have not been ingnorant to some facts and figures.

CJhaughey

Any cat feral or not is a predator, whether or not the cat brings the prey back to be seen is another matter.
The damage done to small mammal life and birdlife by cats alone is staggering, studies have shown that roughly 60-70% of prey is small mammals, 20-30% Bird life and the remaining 10% amphibians reptiles and insects.Link
This alone makes cats a huge danger to wildlife in Ireland.
I don't draw a distinction between a feral and a pet if its in the field it's doing the same damage.
And bells don't work, belled cats caught more than unbelled cats in tests.
If you like cats and like wildlife then keep your cats indoors.

Dusty87

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't draw a distinction between a feral and a pet if its in the field it's doing the same damage.

Cj, i remember reading somewhere that a cat more 60metres i think it was, from a house, is deemed feral. Seemingly they're supposed to be kept in enclosed area's much like dogs are, and not allowed roam.
Will try find a link to where i read that.

snowstreams

I know this isnt really a predator, still a danger to birds, but is there any evidence that this past cold winter we had has reduced much birdlife?
Since lakes were frozen for a few weeks in a row, have some more recent arrivals to ireland suffered like little egrets?

Kess73

snowstreams wrote: »

I know this isnt really a predator, still a danger to birds, but is there any evidence that this past cold winter we had has reduced much birdlife?
Since lakes were frozen for a few weeks in a row, have some more recent arrivals to ireland suffered like little egrets?

The recent cold snap had a negative effect on bird numbers for the coming breeding seasons. Insects were wiped out, the ground was rock hard, and water was hard to come by.


The smaller birds in particular were hit very hard, and I have lost count of the number of dead redwing that I have come across over the cold spell.

Those poor redwing had flown huge distances to get to Ireland to escape the cold in their home countries only to find frozen ground and no insects.

My nest boxes were full most nights. One in particular was full to the brim of wren each night.


Of the three choices given in the thread title, I would have to say that cats cause far more damage to bird numbers than farmers or magpies, in fact I would go as far as to say that cats kill more birds each year in Ireland than farmers, magpies, and all the other corvids combined.

Velvet shank

CJhaughey wrote: »

Any cat feral or not is a predator, whether or not the cat brings the prey back to be seen is another matter.
The damage done to small mammal life and birdlife by cats alone is staggering, studies have shown that roughly 60-70% of prey is small mammals, 20-30% Bird life and the remaining 10% amphibians reptiles and insects.Link
This alone makes cats a huge danger to wildlife in Ireland.
I don't draw a distinction between a feral and a pet if its in the field it's doing the same damage.
And bells don't work, belled cats caught more than unbelled cats in tests.
If you like cats and like wildlife then keep your cats indoors.

CJH, the third point in the Abstract of your link suggested the opposite 'The number of mammals brought home per cat was significantly lower when cats were equipped with bells.....'

snowstreams

Back in the distant passed, ireland would have had wildcats as far i know?
Would these wildcats have had as much impact as the current feral cat? Or is it more the fact that we are supporting these abnormally large populations of cats?

Angus Og

And not just feral cats. The amount of birds that get killed by cats around my place is crazy. And these are well fed cats I'm talking about. I've never really noticed magpies having an impact. There are plenty of them around, but they aren't anywhere near the threat that cats are.

CJhaughey

Velvet shank wrote: »

CJH, the third point in the Abstract of your link suggested the opposite 'The number of mammals brought home per cat was significantly lower when cats were equipped with bells.....'

That is only one study, I have read quite a few that sem to indicate that belled cats can learn to move without the bell ringing, that birds do not associate a bell with danger (why should they?) and some that showed that belled cats caught more than unbelled cats.
I am far from convinced of the relative effectiveness of bells to warn wildlife that a cat is present.

greenpeter

Grey squirrels are another disaster to nesting birds.

magicbastarder

CJhaughey wrote: »

The damage done to small mammal life and birdlife by cats alone is staggering, studies have shown that roughly 60-70% of prey is small mammals, 20-30% Bird life and the remaining 10% amphibians reptiles and insects.Link
This alone makes cats a huge danger to wildlife in Ireland.

the RSPB would beg to differ about the impact of cats on wild birds:

Despite the large numbers of birds killed, there is no scientific evidence that predation by cats in gardens is having any impact on bird populations UK-wide. This may be surprising, but many millions of birds die naturally every year, mainly through starvation, disease, or other forms of predation. There is evidence that cats tend to take weak or sickly birds.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.asp

CJhaughey

I suppose if you are only concerned with birdlife then maybe the RSPB have a point, I think the indiscriminate killing that cats do are can only be a bad thing for the Irish ecosystem, given that cats are not a native species.
Does it make it less bad if felix catches a bat instead of a bird?

nilhg

As a (hopefully) modern farmer I have to say I'm a bit disappointed to be lumped in with feral cats and magpies:eek:

All I can say is what I see with my own eyes while I'm out and about, cats don't seem to be a huge problem in this area, maybe it's because most of the houses around seem to have dogs but it's very rare to see a cat out hunting, I'd definitely see more foxes and badgers. Magpies on the other hand are everywhere and seem to be much more common than say twenty years ago, I'm sure they must be taking a significant toll on smaller birds nests.

I don't want to get involved in a farmer v wildlife debate but would say that my perception is that REPS has made a big difference especially REPS 3 and 4 and that they and setaside will be missed.

Angus Og

And I'd hate to see magpies lumped in with farmers and cats.

Yeah, I think a lot of farmers are making changes to their practices, and I know a lot who really enjoy the variety of wildlife on their land.

Of those three, I'd have to choose cats, but even then, the numbers of song birds haven't decreased where I live.

The only bird that has dropped in numbers here is the greenfinch, and that is due to disease.

Funkyzeit

Been posted here before but worth posting again.

BTO survey on Magpies effect (or rather lack thereof) on songbirds found:

..that songbird numbers were no different in places where there were many magpies or sparrowhawks from where there are few. It found no evidence that increased numbers of magpies have caused declines in songbirds and confirms that populations of prey species are not determined by the numbers of their predators. It is the availability of food and suitable places in which to nest that decide the population

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/m/magpie/effect_on_songbirds.aspx

goat2

Velvet shank wrote: »

CJH, the third point in the Abstract of your link suggested the opposite 'The number of mammals brought home per cat was significantly lower when cats were equipped with bells.....'

i found 7 birds dead in one morning in my garden alone killed by the frost, they froze in their sleep, i have a cat with about 5 bells on you can hear her coming from 20 meters away, i hung the bells on a string from her neck so that everytime she took a step her legs hit the bells and sound the alarm, i hope it is working, when i had just the one bell on she some how silenced it as it did not have enough room to move

Velvet shank

Funkyzeit wrote: »

Been posted here before but worth posting again.

BTO survey on Magpies effect (or rather lack thereof) on songbirds found:

..that songbird numbers were no different in places where there were many magpies or sparrowhawks from where there are few. It found no evidence that increased numbers of magpies have caused declines in songbirds and confirms that populations of prey species are not determined by the numbers of their predators. It is the availability of food and suitable places in which to nest that decide the population

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/m/magpie/effect_on_songbirds.aspx

I think habitat loss is generally the biggest problem behind decreasing populations of wild species. My parents neighbours were always banging on about the decline in bird numbers caused by magpies in their suburban gardens, completely ignoring the destruction of hedges and other habitat with brick walls ('low-maintenance' of course)