GVA: Mercedes Benz F-800 plug in hybrid 0-100 km/h in 4.8 s

probe

80 kW electric motor – range 30 km

220 kW backup engine – range 700 km

Acceleration 0-100 km/h 4.8s

Top speed 250 km/h

CO2: 68g/km

Battery: 10 kWh (Lion)

Fuel cell version will also be available with a range of 600 km and a top speed of 180 km/h.

Distronic Plus Traffic Assistant + Collision detection/mitigation system (front and rear – to avoid chain reaction accidents caused by incompetent morons driving too close behind you)...

http://www3.mercedes-benz.com/mbcom_v4/xx/f800/en.html

robtri

nice... but the F800 F-cell is better

total 136bhp...

with 0 .. CO2

pure fuel cell

probe

robtri wrote: »

nice... but the F800 F-cell is better

total 136bhp...

with 0 .. CO2

pure fuel cell

The fuel cell is really another battery technology that offers "fast charging" - ie as rapidly as one can tank up with H2.

Work is ongoing to make H2 more portable and less risky to handle - eg
http://www.amminex.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=132

To get to the fuel cell stage you will need (a) renewable energy infrastructure to deliver the required amount of electricity and (b) the H2 distribution network to allow you to "tank up".

PIH (plug in hybrid) is a transition platform allowing motorists to use electricity for the majority of their day to day short distance motoring needs - and providing them with the range of a conventional vehicle for longer journeys using conventional fuel.

As electricity storage technologies develop in efficiency and reduce in price, there will be competition between the various platforms - fuel cell, lithium ion, lithium air, ultra capacitors etc. The need for the hydrocarbon engine will vanish in time, making the hybrid obsolete.

The benefit of PIH is that it is available now, and removes the insecurity in peoples' minds about running out of battery power mid-journey. A good H2 distribution network would provide similar assurances when it emerges. H2 distribution has a chicken and egg problem to overcome. PIH does not.

More video coverage of Merc at GVA show on http://mercedes-benz.tv

robtri

probe wrote: »

The fuel cell is really another battery technology that offers "fast charging" - ie as rapidly as one can tank up with H2.

Work is ongoing to make H2 more portable and less risky to handle - eg
http://www.amminex.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=132

To get to the fuel cell stage you will need (a) renewable energy infrastructure to deliver the required amount of electricity and (b) the H2 distribution network to allow you to "tank up".

PIH (plug in hybrid) is a transition platform allowing motorists to use electricity for the majority of their day to day short distance motoring needs - and providing them with the range of a conventional vehicle for longer journeys using conventional fuel.

As electricity storage technologies develop in efficiency and reduce in price, there will be competition between the various platforms - fuel cell, lithium ion, lithium air, ultra capacitors etc. The need for the hydrocarbon engine will vanish in time, making the hybrid obsolete.

The benefit of PIH is that it is available now, and removes the insecurity in peoples' minds about running out of battery power mid-journey. A good H2 distribution network would provide similar assurances when it emerges. H2 distribution has a chicken and egg problem to overcome. PIH does not.

More video coverage of Merc at GVA show on http://mercedes-benz.tv

very true, but the F-800 is not available yet, it is concept only....
my concern with it is the figures quoted..
the electric engine can only power the car for 19mins on its own... and the engine is a V6 monster.....
so how are they achieving this Co2 reduction with very limited electric power....is it the engine that is just made more efficient

robtri

just on the hybrid front...

the new Prius which is on sale...

90gco2
and 72.2 mpg...

compare that too
VW bluemotion polo
1.4diesel..
102gco2
72.4mpg....

it doesent seem that hybrids bring much to the table at the moment....

Pembily

robtri wrote: »

just on the hybrid front...

the new Prius which is on sale...

90gco2
and 72.2 mpg...

compare that too
VW bluemotion polo
1.4diesel..
102gco2
72.4mpg....

it doesent seem that hybrids bring much to the table at the moment....

Perpection is everything - people think they have much lower emissions!!!!

probe

robtri wrote: »

very true, but the F-800 is not available yet, it is concept only....
my concern with it is the figures quoted..
the electric engine can only power the car for 19mins on its own... and the engine is a V6 monster.....
so how are they achieving this Co2 reduction with very limited electric power....is it the engine that is just made more efficient

Sure - but by the time it reaches market the on-board battery could have twice the capacity.

The EU has standards for l/100 km for conventional fuel consumption. They need to deliver a standard for hybrid car fuel consumption and emission specifications - so competing manufacturers are singing from the same hymn sheet in their technical specs and advertising.

There are a significant number of hybrid cars where I live - including large cars like the Lexus LS600h and Merc S400 hybrids (300 kW, 3.5 litre, 0-100 in 7,2 sec). Most of them whiz by me around town in electric mode, very silent. They can live on electric most of the time in the urban jungle. Far less polluting and intrusive compared with a noisy scooter or motorbike.

They should of course be using public transport for these urban journeys, and many of them do because I come across the same individuals occasionally on the very good public transport system in this area. One can only conclude that they are heading for the motorway when they use their car.

When you have good public transport, and live in an area with high density of housing, it is easier to use public transport for urban journeys than take your car out of the underground car park - perhaps parked on -5 level, drive it to the exit, and find parking at your destination in another underground park!

Ireland's low density housing and poor public transport breeds abuse of the car....

probe

robtri wrote: »

just on the hybrid front...

the new Prius which is on sale...

90gco2
and 72.2 mpg...

compare that too
VW bluemotion polo
1.4diesel..
102gco2
72.4mpg....

it doesent seem that hybrids bring much to the table at the moment....

The bluemotion versions of cars are generally very energy efficient. It is down to the battery capacity and the type of use made of the hybrid. Lots of urban driving and a high battery capacity makes the hybrid a better choice. Beyond that the bluemotion diesel vehicles offer a superior solution.

Until the bluemotion diesel hybrid becomes available.

The Prius battery capacity is at the low end of the scale in terms of capacity - around 10% of the Merc F-800H

YourSQL

probe wrote: »

Ireland's low density housing and poor public transport breeds abuse of the car....

i'd still prefer it over high-density housing. any place with a high population density seems to be bad news - people who don't know each other tend to despise each other and look to the government to create new rules so everybody can pretend to get along. i hate living in cities, everything you do except sitting in your house reading a book (and even then!) is likely to annoy somebody somewhere who will be tempted to write to the council and campaign for new rules for you to obey. while it might be more energy efficient to throw everyone into one large cube shaped capsule hotel most people would hate to live in such an environment

there was an article recently about the environmental benefits of shanty towns, obviously the people who write this stuff have no consideration for quality of life at all. they might as well be suggesting genocide as a method of reducing energy use.

public transport can be improved but only if the demand is there. its more wasteful to have an empty train going up and down than a few people driving cars. i don't understand anti-car mentality, it appears like just another desire to control other people's lives as so much of this green environmentalism boils down to. one strict 'by the rules' low-energy lifestyle for everyone! tax that guy with the 6.3 litre Merc off the road!

for now it looks like all the reasonably easy to extract oil will be burnt sooner or later, there is little point in worrying about how inefficient someone else's car is, the only thing worth doing seems to be getting rid of your own dependence on oil before the rush

djpbarry

YourSQL wrote: »

i'd still prefer it over high-density housing. any place with a high population density seems to be bad news - people who don't know each other tend to despise each other and look to the government to create new rules so everybody can pretend to get along. i hate living in cities, everything you do except sitting in your house reading a book (and even then!) is likely to annoy somebody somewhere who will be tempted to write to the council and campaign for new rules for you to obey. while it might be more energy efficient to throw everyone into one large cube shaped capsule hotel most people would hate to live in such an environment

there was an article recently about the environmental benefits of shanty towns, obviously the people who write this stuff have no consideration for quality of life at all. they might as well be suggesting genocide as a method of reducing energy use.

I suggest you reserve these sort of outbursts for the Ranting & Raving forum.

probe

YourSQL wrote: »

i'd still prefer it over high-density housing. any place with a high population density seems to be bad news - people who don't know each other tend to despise each other and look to the government to create new rules so everybody can pretend to get along. i hate living in cities, everything you do except sitting in your house reading a book (and even then!) is likely to annoy somebody somewhere who will be tempted to write to the council and campaign for new rules for you to obey. while it might be more energy efficient to throw everyone into one large cube shaped capsule hotel most people would hate to live in such an environment

there was an article recently about the environmental benefits of shanty towns, obviously the people who write this stuff have no consideration for quality of life at all. they might as well be suggesting genocide as a method of reducing energy use.

public transport can be improved but only if the demand is there. its more wasteful to have an empty train going up and down than a few people driving cars. i don't understand anti-car mentality, it appears like just another desire to control other people's lives as so much of this green environmentalism boils down to. one strict 'by the rules' low-energy lifestyle for everyone! tax that guy with the 6.3 litre Merc off the road!

for now it looks like all the reasonably easy to extract oil will be burnt sooner or later, there is little point in worrying about how inefficient someone else's car is, the only thing worth doing seems to be getting rid of your own dependence on oil before the rush

Where you live is your choice. Ideally, people who live in one-off housing type locations, who are not employed in the immediate vicinity (eg working on a farm or similar) should have to pay towards the additional cost of supporting their lifestyle. These costs include, but are not limited to, providing emergency services, utility services, waste management, servicing roads leading to “nowhere” (of which IRL has more than anywhere else in the EU), etc. Not to mention a “visual blight” tax. Ireland has been “rubber stamped” with badly designed, ugly houses over the recent decades. It is no longer interesting to visit. This is killing off the tourist industry. The crown jewels of Ireland’s tourism industry have been stolen by uncontrolled development.

In a well planned country, without corrupt developers, you can buy a 500 M2 apartment as big as a country house in Ireland, with gorgeous views from all sides, 6 to 8 bedrooms, a large terrace, high ceilings, etc. If you can afford it – and the cost is a lot less than a 500 M2 house in Ireland. (For the record I don’t live in a 500 M2 apartment – I’m simply comparing apartment living with life in a one-off large country house overlooking green fields somewhere in Ireland). Due to the high density of apartment living you have services within a few hundred metres of your front door – eg a crèche, a doctor and dentist, a medical laboratory for tests, the fire, police stations and church are perhaps 3 minutes away, together with the post office, a shopping mall with a hypermarket, a local farmers market, restaurants, cafes, railway station. Virtually everything one needs within walking distance.

If you pick the right apartment building you can still get the views you like – be they of green fields and grazing cattle, sea, mountains, whatever. I find my neighbours very sociable and I don’t feel overwhelmed by rules and regulations. Quite the contrary, I find Ireland has got oppressive in comparison with rules and regulations over the past decade or so, when I visit. For example, an old wooden table I had on the terrace collapsed with age and weather damage a few months ago. I brought it in the elevator to -1, and put it in the recycling room, and that was the end of my problem. In dysfunctional Ireland my options would be painful. Burn it in the garden – which would be illegal (not illegal where I live to burn wood, which is beside the point). Or drive it to the local recycling centre and pay probably €10 or more to get in to get rid of it. Or advertise it for sale (who wants to buy a weather worn rotten table with broken legs?).

It is easy to pre-install combined heat, power and air conditioning systems in planned apartment complexes which are fuelled from waste generated locally in the area. This provides cheap silent air conditioning, cheap heating, cheap hot water and cheap electricity (around 9c per kWh).

So moving back to the thread, apartment living is conductive to driving a hybrid or electric car – as opposed to living in the middle of nowhere, perhaps with a 100 km commute to work, and picking up children in some remote school and or crèche etc – not to mind shopping every day. A timewasting lifestyle.

YourSQL

probe wrote: »

Where you live is your choice. Ideally, people who live in one-off housing type locations, who are not employed in the immediate vicinity (eg working on a farm or similar) should have to pay towards the additional cost of supporting their lifestyle. These costs include, but are not limited to, providing emergency services, utility services, waste management, servicing roads leading to “nowhere” (of which IRL has more than anywhere else in the EU), etc. Not to mention a “visual blight” tax. Ireland has been “rubber stamped” with badly designed, ugly houses over the recent decades. It is no longer interesting to visit. This is killing off the tourist industry. The crown jewels of Ireland’s tourism industry have been stolen by uncontrolled development.

In a well planned country, without corrupt developers, you can buy a 500 M2 apartment as big as a country house in Ireland, with gorgeous views from all sides, 6 to 8 bedrooms, a large terrace, high ceilings, etc. If you can afford it – and the cost is a lot less than a 500 M2 house in Ireland. (For the record I don’t live in a 500 M2 apartment – I’m simply comparing apartment living with life in a one-off large country house overlooking green fields somewhere in Ireland). Due to the high density of apartment living you have services within a few hundred metres of your front door – eg a crèche, a doctor and dentist, a medical laboratory for tests, the fire, police stations and church are perhaps 3 minutes away, together with the post office, a shopping mall with a hypermarket, a local farmers market, restaurants, cafes, railway station. Virtually everything one needs within walking distance.

If you pick the right apartment building you can still get the views you like – be they of green fields and grazing cattle, sea, mountains, whatever. I find my neighbours very sociable and I don’t feel overwhelmed by rules and regulations. Quite the contrary, I find Ireland has got oppressive in comparison with rules and regulations over the past decade or so, when I visit. For example, an old wooden table I had on the terrace collapsed with age and weather damage a few months ago. I brought it in the elevator to -1, and put it in the recycling room, and that was the end of my problem. In dysfunctional Ireland my options would be painful. Burn it in the garden – which would be illegal (not illegal where I live to burn wood, which is beside the point). Or drive it to the local recycling centre and pay probably €10 or more to get in to get rid of it. Or advertise it for sale (who wants to buy a weather worn rotten table with broken legs?).

It is easy to pre-install combined heat, power and air conditioning systems in planned apartment complexes which are fuelled from waste generated locally in the area. This provides cheap silent air conditioning, cheap heating, cheap hot water and cheap electricity (around 9c per kWh).

So moving back to the thread, apartment living is conductive to driving a hybrid or electric car – as opposed to living in the middle of nowhere, perhaps with a 100 km commute to work, and picking up children in some remote school and or crèche etc – not to mind shopping every day. A timewasting lifestyle.

and you don't think they pay already? try getting any of these services installed in a remote location - you will be paying through the nose, and paying again when the local ESB pole starts to rot. of course if they were not offered none of these supposedly troublesome people would bother building their new ugly houses in the countryside. none of those people can live without their grid power and broadband

those roads you mention are not maintained anyway, the odd time they might send a few lads down to shovel a lump of cold tarmac into the potholes and besides those roads make things interesting for the tourists.

those houses only play a small part in making ireland less interesting. the government's desire to make it the same as every other European country doesn't help. The only thing different is the prices. The shops are the same, the pubs are mostly the same except here you get to pay more. There really is no point in visiting this country anymore unless you go to the remotest parts which should be kept remote but not by simply making people pay for owning a house there. there's nothing wrong with someone building a nice house in a remote place that fits in with the landscape but there is no way to measure how ugly a house is.

if its not illegal to burn wood where you live then its only a matter of time. more people means more complaints about smoke. then you will only be allowed to burn it in a wood burning stove you got a grant for and had installed by an officially registered wood burning stove installation technician. if you have decent neighbours then you are lucky. every place attracts its fair share of complainers but its still better if they are further away.

YourSQL

djpbarry wrote: »

I suggest you reserve these sort of outbursts for the Ranting & Raving forum.

most of the rants in there are people ranting about how other people annoy them. mostly dublin based folk too. kind of proves my point really

djpbarry

Guys, could we steer the discussion back toward the topic at hand please?

probe

In the pipeline, Porsche has the 918 Spyder hybrid with stunning performance - finally the prospect of a "green" Porsche?

Acceleration: 0-100 in 3.2 sec (nearly as fast as a Bugatti Veyron - 2.5s)

CO2 emissions: 70g/km (less than an itty bitty Smart car)

Top speed: 320 km/h (as fast as a TGV)

Battery range: 25km (It needs Dick Weir's Ultracapacitor).

Fuel consumption: 3 l/100 km. (the Bugatti drinks about 40 l/100km around town).

http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/pressreleases/pag/?pool=international-de&id=2010-03-02