Ireland guilty of infringing EU Law on 'Tobacco Price Fixing' - Is VRT next?

OutlawPete

The EU Court of Justice has ruled that Ireland fixing prices for cigarettes is against EU law.

Could this finally see VRT also being found to be against EU legislation also?

The Court of Justice of the European Union has ruled that Irish legislation fixing a minimum retail price for cigarettes infringes EU law.

The legislation here breaches Directive 95/59 which has rules on excise duty affecting the consumption of tobacco products.

The court says imposing a minimum price on cigarettes can undermine competition by preventing some manufacturers taking advantage of lower cost manufacturing prices, so as to offer more attractive retail selling prices.

The court says that while the directive [95/59] ensures health protection, it does not prevent member states from combating smoking.

In a statement, cigarette manufacturer PJ Carroll welcomed the ruling saying: 'The reality is the set minimum price for cigarettes has become irrelevant.

Packs of cigarettes are being purchased up and down the country for as little as €3.50 on the black market. This is under half the current minimum price of €7.75.

Source

Dravokivich

fúck we'd all like to think so... it's nuts that new cars are taxed 3 bleeding times...

VRT / VAT / Road Tax...

epgc3fyqirnbsx

That would be brilliant, wouldnt be nearly as many Yaris around then

amacachi

No, they can still set minimum prices by proxy with duties, just like all other European countries do with cigarettes, only our government was stupid enough to insist that somewhere along the way the manufacturers or the retailers got a nice big cut of the selling price compared to other countries.

Cookie_Monster

Dravokivich wrote: »

fúck we'd all like to think so... it's nuts that new cars are taxed 3 bleeding times...

VRT / VAT / Road Tax...

no such thing as road tax, there a motor tax though.

Nothing wrong with VRT (in theory), it a tax to register the vehicle is all.
Denmark's is much higher than ours

OutlawPete

It was this line that interested me:

"..undermine competition by preventing some manufacturers taking advantage of lower cost manufacturing prices.."

Seems crazy that I can't even buy a second hand car in the UK and drive it home without paying VRT.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no such thing as road tax, there a motor tax though.

Nothing wrong with VRT (in theory), it a tax to register the vehicle is all.
Denmark's is much higher than ours

That doesn't make it right though.

Your "is all" makes it appear trivial.

Registration is not an expensive process. They are penalising people for shopping elsewhere in the EU.

It should be about Є100 to register an imported car and that's all.

If anyone chooses to buy a new car in the UK and drive it home on the Ferry they will want VRT even though you could have paid the local TAX in the UK.

Isn't that the bill of goods we were all sold when we joined the EU?

That there would be one common market and competition was at the heart of that?

Cookie_Monster

OutlawPete wrote: »

It was this line that interested me:
Seems crazy that I can't even buy a second hand car in the UK and drive it home without paying VRT.
That doesn't make it right though.
If anyone chooses to buy a new car in the UK and drive it home on the Ferry they will want VRT even though you could have paid the local TAX in the UK.
Isn't that the bill of goods we were all sold when we joined the EU?
That there would be one common market and competition was at the heart of that?

you can buy a car in the UK and import it and not pay VRT, you're just not allowed use it on public roads.

g5fd6ow0hseima

amacachi wrote: »

our government was stupid enough to insist that somewhere along the way the manufacturers or the retailers got a nice big cut of the selling price compared to other countries.

Explain....

amacachi

Graysen Microscopic Looter wrote: »

Explain....

Right, there's a base amount of Duty on a packet of cigarettes. Say for argument's sake it's a fiver. On top of that there's VAT which brings it up to €6. By default that's a minimum price, however the government set a minimum price which is higher than the minimum price caused by the taxes. If they got rid of the minimum price but added a euro or so to the duty then there'd be no change in price, they'd collect more duty and be within the law.

As another example, there's duty of about €31 on a litre of alcohol. So for a litre of 37.5% vodka it's about 11.50, plus VAT which brings it up to 13.80. That is the minimum that can be charged for that litre of Vodka, but the minimum price is set as a result of the excise, not as a direct minimum price. If the government were to set a higher minimum price above the minimum price "caused" by the taxes then that would be illegal.


I'd love to know how much our government wasted on legal fees in this case when it was such an easy thing to remedy without losing out.

admiralofthefleet

gaspers are getting cheaper? ill smoke to that

seamus

Graysen Microscopic Looter wrote: »

Explain....

He means that instead of, for example, slapping tax of €6 (for example) on every box of cigarettes, the Government simply told the manufacturers that had raise the price of a box of cigarettes by €6, all of which is profit for the manufacturer.

The manufacturers of course aren't stupid and are well aware that if a box of cigs was €4, they'd sell 3 times as many boxes.

Yes, this probably won't mean any reduction in the price of cigs, they'll probably just remove the minimum price and replace it with duties.

I personally think that lowering the price of cigs and alcohol by 30% would get us out of recession quicker...

biko

seamus speaks wisely. Have a smoke and a pint on me

IrishManSaipan

seamus wrote: »

I personally think that lowering the price of cigs and alcohol by 30% would get us out of recession quicker...

Session our way out of recession.:)

Kev_ps3

Just shows you, we are basically ruled by a foreign power.

Kev_ps3

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Just shows you, we are basically ruled by a foreign power.

If only...

Rented Mule

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Just shows you, we are basically ruled by a foreign power.

The Irish people had their chance to say to to this on several occassions.

IrishManSaipan

Rented Mule wrote: »

The Irish people had their chance to say to to this on several occassions.

That they did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE

OutlawPete

seamus wrote: »

Yes, this probably won't mean any reduction in the price of cigs, they'll probably just remove the minimum price and replace it with duties...

No probably about I would say.

The same happened with VRT.

They just changed the purpose of the charge from an Import Tax to a Registration Tax.

Been hoodwinked by your own fcuking Government, ya gotta love it.

Mike 1972

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

a tax to register the vehicle is all.

Why is it necessary to reregister a vehicle which has alreaddy been registered in an EU country

If one moves from Donegal to Dublin they dont need to reregister their car so why should someone moving from Dresden to Dublin have to do so ?

seamus

Mike 1972 wrote: »

If one moves from Donegal to Dublin they dont need to reregister their car so why should someone moving from Dresden to Dublin have to do so ?

For the same reason that if you move from Dresden to Dublin to work, you need to register in Ireland with revenue to pay income tax - different jurisdictions which are not interconnected, data-wise, and which have different rules.

The real question is why we must pay thousands of euro to process a piece of paper and issue a registration number.

onq

amacachi wrote: »

(snip)

As another example, there's duty of about €31 on a litre of alcohol.
(snip)

€31
Steep prices in "after hours"
Sober people here.



ONQ.

Kev_ps3

Rented Mule wrote: »

The Irish people had their chance to say to to this on several occassions.

Im not denying that. I guess im just crazy wanting to be governed by my own people.

MikeC101

seamus wrote: »

The real question is why we must pay thousands of euro to process a piece of paper and issue a registration number.

Exactly. It should be a set fee, even for a few hundred, I'd have less issue with it.

amacachi

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Just shows you, we are basically ruled by a foreign power.

We signed a directive into law and then we broke said law.
If this is the result of being ruled by a foreign power I'm all for it, all the former policy did was guarantee more money to the cigarette manufacturers for no good reason. I'd never suggest any brown envelopes passed hands.

Mike 1972

seamus wrote: »

different jurisdictions which are not interconnected, data-wise,

Well the Republic of Ireland's database is now linked with Northern Ireland in order to pursue non-payment of tolls and parking fines

So whatever about Dresden there is no good reason why someone moving from Dungannon to Dublin would need to reregister.......

Nick_oliveri

PJ Carroll welcomed the ruling saying: 'The reality is the set minimum price for cigarettes has become irrelevant.

Yeah it becomes irrelevant when everyone's addicted to your drugs and will fork out whatever monies anyway. Like me.

I think we could turn it around if they (gov) decided to put a duty on it when the minimum price was abolished. Hopefully it will spark debate. But you know the ol' Irish saying.... "Bend over and take it".

Mike 1972

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I guess im just crazy wanting to be governed by my own people.

If your definition of your own people = Fianna Fail then yeah youre totally bat$h1t...........

Son Of A Vidic

No, the E.U. wouldn't interfere with VRT or car prices here because that would be providing something worthwhile to us all. Don't forget they are useless 8astards after all.

CrazyRabbit

It's a shame they didn't double the min price.

Would save a fortune on health care with the reduction in smokers.

cooperguy

Hopefully VRT isnt next. Do you really think if VRT had to go the Government would just sit back and take the MASSIVE hit in tax intake? It would mean some other tax would have to go up. And im happy without that happening. At the end of the day the tax money is needed so they are not going to let it be reduced by that much.

Millicent

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

It's a shame they didn't double the min price.

Would save a fortune on health care with the reduction in smokers.

Which would leave a huge deficit in duty funded off the backs of addicts. If people give up smoking because of the huge increase, where's that revenue gonna come from?

Millicent

Millicent wrote: »

Which would leave a huge deficit in duty funded off the backs of addicts. If people give up smoking because of the huge increase, where's that revenue gonna come from?

Booze

Millicent

Deleted User wrote: »

Booze

There'd be wobbly, overemotional, drunken riots!

Le King

So what price would fags be now?

Shane732

Been there had that whole argument, I've attached a reply I received from the EU Commission on the legality of VRT.

Unfortunately I don't think it's something that'll be changing very soon....

On the other hand if any of you know someone with €250K plus to bring a case to the ECJ just give me a shout!!

Shane732

Millicent wrote: »

Which would leave a huge deficit in duty funded off the backs of addicts. If people give up smoking because of the huge increase, where's that revenue gonna come from?

Headshops

FunnyStuff

OutlawPete wrote: »

No probably about I would say.

The same happened with VRT.

They just changed the purpose of the charge from an Import Tax to a Registration Tax.

Been hoodwinked raped by your own fcuking Government, ya gotta love it.

Fixed.