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Let Church fall rather than pay

  • 04-03-2010 1:39pm
    #1
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/catholic-group-warns-let-church-fall-rather-than-pay-abuse-cash-2088025.html

    Thankfully we are getting to the stage where this organisation is doomed.
    They are losing support for their inability to address any issues they have. Their delusional faithful followers are finally waking up to the con job that is the RCC.

    It is now up to us as atheists to vocalise our opinions, without worry about causing offence to the religious. They have been heavily brainwashed by an evil cult that has affected their reason and logic.

    We also need the government to wake up and prosecute the church, seize their assets, jail all paedo priests and those who covered it up.

    We need a better campaign to demand secular education immediately. It is up to us to do this, the levels of apathy shown here by some A+A members depresses me.


Comments

  • #2
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Erren Music wrote: »
    It is now up to us as atheists...

    ...the levels of apathy shown here by some A+A members depresses me.
    Nothing is up to anyone as an atheist as we don't automatically share a doctrine or an anti-church agenda. This isn't the "anti-catholic church" forum, so stop telling people what they should be doing with their time. People can take as much or as little interest in such goings on as they wish.

    What exactly have you done other than spouting vitriol about the church here?


  • #3
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Erren Music wrote: »
    Their delusional faithful followers are finally waking up to the con job that is the RCC.

    I actually feel quite sorry for a lot of religious people who are having to shoulder the burden of shame and ridicule caused by the very people charged with upholding all they hold dear.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    We need a better campaign to demand secular education immediately.

    The campaign for secular education is already there, as is secular education for that matter. These things take time, Rome wasn't built in a day.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    It is up to us to do this, the levels of apathy shown here by some A+A members depresses me.

    You are aware this is an internet forum dedicated to atheist and agnostic issues and not an army for fighting theism? Many of us are married to and/or have loved ones who are theists. I want equality, I don't want to do anything beyond that.

    What are you doing in the real world that will make such a difference?


  • #4
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #5
    Bduffman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Bduffman


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    1 in six people??? Are you including the 90% of apparent catholics in Ireland for example? Do you really think there are that many just because they tick the box on the census form?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I wouldn't tell that to the parishioners in Ferns who were asked to chip in. ;)
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Untrue - the majority of parents send their kids to catholic schools BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF SCHOOLS ARE CATHOLIC. Not the other way around.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Surely the RCC as an organisation are fair game due to the systematic cover-ups?


  • #6
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Not so.


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  • #7
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The cover up went to the top of the church; the organisation is responsible. The scandal is not about a few priests.


  • #8
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    there seem to be two types of lesbians those that hate men for some reason and those that are grand with men they just fancy women

    in the same way there are athiests (like me) that can get annoyed with religion or homeopathy or astrology but have no real issue with it and then people who have decided to become anti religion. surley the anti religion posters should be in the politics or spefic religion forum and leave use to pontificate about our stuff


  • #9
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Tigger wrote: »
    in the same way there are athiests (like me) that can get annoyed with religion or homeopathy or astrology but have no real issue with it and then people who have decided to become anti religion.


    I see. So it's fine for you to get annoyed at religion but not have any real issue with it, but if I have serious criticisms beyond petulant annoyance I am the equivalent of a man hating lesbian?

    Also, I don't think it is in the spirit of pontification when you can't spell or use punctuation.


  • #10
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    You see, this isn't really like looking back into the past at slavery, for example, and saying, "Yeah, that was wrong, but you know what, it was a long time ago, we've moved on now".

    The thing is, it *wasn't* a long time ago. It was going on well into the 1980s. Most of the perpetrators are still alive. Those at the top who were involved in covering up and hiding the stories are still alive and are still in power within the organisation. In fact, one major conspirator has now become the head of the organisation.

    This isn't something which was confined to a few misfits or to a few pockets of bad eggs within the organisation. The abuse itself was, but the subsequent covering up of the abuse is something which was carried out at every level of the organisation, all over the world. It was a systemic conspiracy carried out by the organisation, so the organisation as a whole must be made to repent (ha!) for its actions.
    Every priest in the world was told that if such allegations were made, that it was to be brought to their superiors, and (almost) every priest went ahead and did this instead of doing what was right and going to the authorities. So there isn't a single individual in the organisation who can claim that they were unaware of attempts to keep child abuse allegations within the organisation.

    I can see a case not being too far away where a worldwide victims' group take a case to the EU and the USA looking for compensation and prosecutions on a global scale.


  • #11
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    seamus wrote: »
    The abuse itself was...

    Wasn't the investigation confined to one diocese so we actually have no idea how wide spread the abuse was/is...? The statistics if you roll out the findings of the Murphy report worldwide would be horrendous.


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  • #12
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Wasn't the investigation confined to one diocese so we actually have no idea how wide spread the abuse was/is...? The statistics if you roll out the findings of the Murphy report worldwide would be horrendous.
    Indeed. What I mean was that it was far from *every* priest being involved in sex abuse, it would have only been a small number - but a small number spread out everywhere.

    Though I'm not too sure about that, if you go back before the church started to lose their grip in 70's. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that abuse was more than widespread among the clergy - it was almost common practice, and many people in their 60's and 70's today can attest to having been touched inappropriately by a priest or a nun or having witnessed some form of abuse taking place.

    This may be in fact why the church went to such lengths to cover it up. If it was only a handful of cases here and there, they would have been ousted. But the church served as a hiding place for a lot of people with sexual issues and those in charge would have known that. So they probably feared that if a couple of cases were to become public, then more cases would start emerging and the scale of the abuse going on would become known and destroy the church. Which is exactly what's happening now.


  • #13
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    seamus wrote: »
    Anecdotal evidence would suggest that abuse was more than widespread among the clergy - it was almost common practice, and many people in their 60's and 70's today can attest to having been touched inappropriately by a priest or a nun or having witnessed some form of abuse taking place.

    I've always wondered about that, is anyone aware of any studies which examine the number of abusers in particular population or by role.
    Certainly the church would seem to have a higher percent but is that more due to greater reporting due to their higher profile ?
    Per country would also be interesting, lets face it going by reports you'd have to worry about any Irish male left in the company of young children.
    Are Catholics more inclined to abuse than say atheists or Buddhists ?


  • #14
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    Dades wrote: »
    Nothing is up to anyone as an atheist as we don't automatically share a doctrine or an anti-church agenda. This isn't the "anti-catholic church" forum, so stop telling people what they should be doing with their time. People can take as much or as little interest in such goings on as they wish.

    What exactly have you done other than spouting vitriol about the church here?

    I resent the allegation. It just makes more sense if

    (1) we all have no belief in god or church
    (2) we know the bible is fictional and religion is a bad thing
    (3) RCC is the largest paedo network in existence
    (4) RCC is still in control of our childrens schools and is still brainwashing them.

    Are you are happy with this situation? If everything I say its true about the church how can I be "spouting vitriol about the church"
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »

    The campaign for secular education is already there, as is secular education for that matter. These things take time, Rome wasn't built in a day.

    The government hasn't the balls to deal with the church
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    You are aware this is an internet forum dedicated to atheist and agnostic issues and not an army for fighting theism? I want equality, I don't want to do anything beyond that.

    I understand that, but how can you align the equality of mallable brainwashed and indoctrinated people with any logic.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    What are you doing in the real world that will make such a difference?
    A member of AI, a member of RDF, a very vocal atheist in my circle, have used countmeout.ie

    We are about to release a song for child abuse survivors that is brutal in its language and assessment of how it was dealt with here.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    A few priest.......
    Tigger wrote: »
    in the same way there are athiests (like me) that can get annoyed with religion or homeopathy or astrology but have no real issue with it and then people who have decided to become anti religion. surley the anti religion posters should be in the politics or spefic religion forum and leave use to pontificate about our stuff
    Can we split the A+A forum into 2 then, a regular happy tolerant fuzzy one where god and atheist laugh and giggle about the madness of it all, and than a militant one where people like me can come on and say

    religion is a pile of sh1te,
    the bible's a pile of sh1te,
    why are they still running our schools,
    why are they still allowed to lie to children and brainwash people,
    why are they allowed to have any opinion on talk shows, government, anything.

    Why haven't newspapers pointed out clearly that is all all rubbish. The reason I posted this thread was to encourage people to wake the fuk up.

    I know very devout people who now are seeing through the lies and hypocrisy. They were sickened by the bishops in Rome with the grand wizard, bowing and kissing rings, wearing the fancy sh1t. These are people that were scared to acknowledge any doubts because of commandments 1 and 2.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Wasn't the investigation confined to one diocese so we actually have no idea how wide spread the abuse was/is...? The statistics if you roll out the findings of the Murphy report worldwide would be horrendous.
    This is another point I have made before.

    Why didnt our government launch an immediate investigation into every diocese, move in right away and seize all church property.


  • #15
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Erren Music wrote: »
    Can we split the A+A forum into 2 then, a regular happy tolerant fuzzy one where god and atheist laugh and giggle about the madness of it all, and than a militant one where people like me can come on and say

    There's no need ! Its really there. There's a home for your well reasoned and articulated arguments over here


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Erren Music wrote: »
    I resent the allegation. It just makes more sense if

    (1) we all have no belief in god or church
    (2) we know the bible is fictional and religion is a bad thing
    (3) RCC is the largest paedo network in existence
    (4) RCC is still in control of our childrens schools and is still brainwashing them.
    Dude, Atheism just means lack of a belief in a god.
    That's it.
    Anyone can disagree or agree with any of the other points there and still be an atheist because they lack a belief in a god.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    If everything I say its true about the church how can I be "spouting vitriol about the church"
    Maybe some of the things you say aren't true? Or are hyperbolic oversimplifications?
    Erren Music wrote: »
    The government hasn't the balls to deal with the church
    Well here's an idea, what if we had a way to choose a politician that would support your positions at a governmental level.
    Or in the event of no such politician being available, becoming involved in politics yourself.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    why are they allowed to have any opinion on talk shows, government, anything.
    Free speech?
    Erren Music wrote: »
    Why didnt our government launch an immediate investigation into every diocese, move in right away and seize all church property.
    Because they can't legally do so?


  • #17
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    Dades wrote: »

    What exactly have you done other than spouting vitriol about the church here?

    Can you qualify this remark.


  • #18
    hiorta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭hiorta


    Aren't the law enforcers duty bound to investigate criminal behavior and bring those responsible to trial?


  • #19
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Erren Music wrote: »
    Can you qualify this remark.
    Erren Music wrote:
    RCC is the largest paedo network in existence; why are they allowed to have any opinion on talk shows, government, anything.

    Qualified.

    Try some pragmatism. Yelling at people who broadly agree with your points (though certainly not your delivery) isn't going to endear them to you.


  • #20
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Erren Music wrote: »
    Can we split the A+A forum into 2 then, a regular happy tolerant fuzzy one where god and atheist laugh and giggle about the madness of it all, and than a militant one where people like me can come on and say...
    What's sad about this is that you are fighting for a really good cause but your attitude sucks.

    Rather than see that you have allies in this forum you just blanket insult most of them (not to mention their religious wives/partners/family) and come across as someone most people wouldn't sit beside on a bus for fear of an earful. This forum has been around for years and any topic you bring up has been discussed a dozen times.

    An adult approach to garnering interest in the cause, rather than shouting about paedo networks and religion being a pile of sh1te would have served you - and the cause - better.


  • #21
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Erren Music wrote: »
    The government hasn't the balls to deal with the church

    So you're angry with the government, point me out someone who isn't. That doesn't mean you should be shouting insults at theists nor appointing yourself sergeant major and attempting to round up the troops.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    I understand that, but how can you align the equality of mallable brainwashed and indoctrinated people with any logic.

    What has logic got to do with it? Equality isn't about logic, it's about, well, equality.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    A member of AI, a member of RDF, a very vocal atheist in my circle, have used countmeout.ie

    Okay, so keep doing that, stop preaching to the converted in an atheist and agnostics forum because that does very little for anyone or anything.


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  • #22
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Erren Music wrote: »
    A member of AI, a member of RDF, a very vocal atheist in my circle, have used countmeout.ie

    ...

    This is what passes for activism these days?


  • #23
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    ...

    This is what passes for activism these days?

    In Ireland, yeah. :pac:


  • #24
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I'm agnostic. Why am I supposed to be some sort of activist?


  • #25
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Flamed, you could always march up and down the street with a megaphone shouting "I don't know! and you don't either!!" ala Malty's sig. Or maybe put on a work of performance art where you stand on a fence and shrug your shoulders for two hours? Militant agnosticism for the win. :D


  • #26
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    strobe wrote: »
    Flamed, you could always march up and down the street with a megaphone shouting "I don't know! and you don't either!!" ala Malty's sig. Or maybe put on a work of performance art where you stand on a fence shrug your shoulders for two hours? Militant agnosticism for the win. :D

    What do we want???

    We can't know!

    When do we want it???

    Unknown!


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