etape du ras 2011

garminguy

hi guys,
constant reader/lurker, first time poster here.
getting to an age in life where i want to challenge myself beyond my usual levels and the thought came into my mind of trying to do an etape du ras next year,cosit will probably take me till then to build up my fitness levels to attempt this.

the concept behind it is to ride all the stages of the fbd ras next year on the preceding day.

i am determined to do this so i am just looking for advice and direction.

thanks in advance

thekerrycyclist

I think this would be a great idea!

Esroh

Talk to FBD thay might actually sponsor you to do this and there are prob a few on here daft enough to join you

IM0

heres some direction

IM0

Esroh wrote: »

there are prob a few on here daft enough to join you

I think blorg has just announced his intentions up there ^ ^

garminguy

if there is anyone on here who knows or has connections to recent or current ras riders i would be grateful for any training advice and what back up is necessary

IM0

garminguy wrote: »

if there is anyone on here who knows or has connections to recent or current ras riders i would be grateful for any training advice and what back up is necessary

start racing, then closer to the time do stage races of 3-4 days long, and not sure what you mean about the bit in bold.

blorg

Racing experience or doing stage races is entirely unnecessary to follow a race like this solo at your own pace. Do audax events, that would be the best advice to prepare. I intended similar with the Tour of Ireland this year, following the race early in the morning rather than the previous day, but crashed badly after the first stage needing stitches in my neck so had to short-cut it to the finish. Around a month later I did the Raid Pyrneen with around 1,000km (I added in a loop around northern Catalunya) and then a week after that a 800km jaunt around Ireland to make up for it. Could not be more different to racing I can assure you, it is all about doing the distance at a not crazy pace.

IM0

blorg wrote: »

Racing experience or doing stage races is entirely unnecessary to follow a race like this solo at your own pace. Do audax events, that would be the best advice to prepare. I intended similar with the Tour of Ireland this year, following the race early in the morning rather than the previous day, but crashed badly after the first stage needing stitches in my neck so had to short-cut it to the finish. Around a month later I did the Raid Pyrneen with around 1,000km (I added in a loop around northern Catalunya) and then a week after that a 800km jaunt around Ireland to make up for it. Could not be more different to racing I can assure you, it is all about doing the distance at a not crazy pace.

maybe, but the guy did ask for people who know someone who has done it in the past ie from a racing perspective of training, and thats what you do, race then stage races closer to the time.

No point in asking a rally driver how to drive on dirt tracks to get to a picnic site in the forrest if you know what I mean.

On the otherhand if he had said anyone know anyone who has done long distance at your own pace riding (touring) then my response would be different, can only work with what I have to go on

jwshooter

the mount leinster challenge , takes in some of a stage the week before

blorg

@me@ucd- he is talking about following the course the day before, not entering the Ras. Anyone who has raced would know these are two VERY different things.

garminguy

just to clear up any confusion,
i intend(hopefully) to race it the day before the riders in the ras do and in the same manner as they will, i.e. at race pace ,the race pace of a 40 year old leisure cycist that is.
i know that it is a big jump from what i do at the moment, that i why i am trying to get orgainised now cos it wilt take that long to raise to develop the strength and endurance to acchieve this.

thanks for the feedback so far

blorg

You can't race it the way they do, as you will be on your own. Racing in terms of road racing is completely different and doing that would not prepare you for this other than of course building fitness which it will certainly do. Start by doing audax-type events and at some point start trying to do days back to back, e.g. 200km Saturday followed by a 200km on Sunday.

If you want to road race then join a club, start off with their group spins, enter the club league and when you are comfortable with that try some open races followed by stage races. But this is completely orthogonal to the specific goal you have set yourself.

To be honest though doing long multi-day cycles, something I have done a fair bit of, involves pacing and your mentioning of "race pace" would have me worried you will burn yourself up early. You need to be able to do the distance first, once you can do the distance you can worry about doing it faster.

columbus_66

Hi there,

I've done the Ras loads of times and racing it and riding the stages would be totally different. The stages are generally 100mls a day and that would be easily done and enjoyable for a fit leisure cyclist who is training every week. What about doing the stages on the same day as we don't set off till 11am every day and if you start early enough you might see the finish. Also it would be fun as there might be crowds on the hills or you might get to see the bunch go by. My training for the Ras starts with a good winter and then all the A races and then extra hours training a month beforehand and then taper down the last 2 weeks. The ras is very fast and you don't need that sort of preparation if you take it easy every day.

Bikerbhoy

garminguy wrote: »

just to clear up any confusion,
i intend(hopefully) to race it the day before the riders in the ras do and in the same manner as they will, i.e. at race pace ,the race pace of a 40 year old leisure cycist that is.
i know that it is a big jump from what i do at the moment, that i why i am trying to get orgainised now cos it wilt take that long to raise to develop the strength and endurance to acchieve this.

thanks for the feedback so far

Im still confused re RACE PACE how can you determine or judge what the race pace could or should be at any given point on any stage.

Race pace is in general determined by a group / team of riders more often than not, and / or possibly to a lesser degree on occasion by an individual at points within a stage ie solo break aways.

Unless you do it this way, average daily speed of Ras stages,what is it lads ?? 38 - 40 kph..??? multiply x 8 days..... to use that as a yard stick.... Very tough to maintain that sort of consistent ave speed on your own.

I think this venture would be much more enjoyable for you and any one who may join you if you lost the RACE PACE aspect of it to be honest ,its going to be tough enough as it is in my opinion.

Best of Luck either way

blorg

Bikerbhoy wrote: »

Unless you do it this way, average daily speed of Ras stages,what is it lads ?? 38 - 40 kph..??? multiply x 8 days..... to use that as a yard stick.... Very tough to maintain that sort of consistent ave speed on your own.

Not very tough, impossible. Cancellara wouldn't manage it.

Racing and riding on your own are two completely different things.

+1 on columbus66's suggestion of doing it early in the morning though, I did the TOI this way and it was nice with all the signs, people gathering on Mount Leinster as I went over, etc. And you get to see the actual race too which is a bonus. There is also the option of continuing after the race finish, e.g. you do the first half of the stage the afternoon before then do the second half the next morning, stop to watch the finish and then continue on the next stage.

Bikerbhoy

blorg wrote: »

Not very tough, impossible. Cancellara wouldn't manage it.

Racing and riding on your own are two completely different things.

.

I know that .... Im being nice about this, thats all, cant be seen to be overly negative ...this whole thing could be good fun if viewed and planned with logic in mind.

columbus_66

You can forget about trying to match the speed of the Ras, we could be doing 40-60kmph steady some days. Some of the 160km stages are done in 3hrs 30min. And don't forget the weather, last year we had torrential rain for 7 days out of 8! Make sure you have mudguards and rain gear. The best ave speed you could hope for on your own is 20-30kmph. Most of the Irish riders would ride in the bunch all week and never have to break wind and that is hard enough! Also the organiser bring the Ras onto more small rough R roads every year. At least you can skip going up the Blackhills in Skerries 3 times at the end, now that is painful!

Bikerbhoy

columbus_66 wrote: »

You can forget about trying to match the speed of the Ras, we could be doing 40-60kmph steady some days. Some of the 160km stages are done in 3hrs 30min.!

WOW....Well there you go from '' A MAN OF THE RAS ''..... theres your race pace for ya......................

Good on ya columbus ... you doing it this year ?

columbus_66

I hope so, got good winter training done, and if all goes well in the racing I should be there. At least a few of the stages are shorter this year, it all really depends on what standard of teams are there. Some of the English teams now are stronger than before like Rapha and when a few of them get to the front it is very hard to do any sort of racing. It's always a buzz to ride with the likes of Kirsipuu, Eeckhout, van Bon etc. not forgetting Tony Martin and then the likes of Chris Newton, Dominique Rollin. And it's a great way to get a whistle stop tour of Ireland in a week. Oh and also semi closed roads, I've been stuck in the right hand gutter for miles on end hoping the guys ahead shout when there is a car coming!

IM0

Bikerbhoy wrote: »

Im still confused re RACE PACE how can you determine or judge what the race pace could or should be at any given point on any stage.

The only way you can simulate and actually race it at race pace (even if he isnt doing the race) is by heart rate, not speed or power as you wont get close to avg spds of the ras or average power. heart rate is a measure of exertion so if you want race pace, do races get an idea of what your HR does and then do that same profile while your doing your ras route.

blorg

If you have never done these sort of distances 8 days back to back before I would get the whole "race pace" idea out of your head. Focus on doing the distance first, when you have that done you can start thinking about doing it faster. If you really want to try doing it "fast" next year I would aim to do it "slow" this year. I would be happy personally just cycling the route at a reasonable pace.

Junior

Actually the only way to really simulate race pace is to look at the schedule for each day, each stage is given a nominal time to be completed, it's given a time for a headwind and a time for a tailwind, if you can get those timings you might have an idea of what sort of pace you need to set yourself.

In saying that, I'm not saying this is race pace, it's simulating race pace, you've also got to factor in the fact your going to be carrying gear, clothing etc, Rás riders won't, they have team cars.

Bikerbhoy

columbus_66 wrote: »

I hope so, got good winter training done, and if all goes well in the racing I should be there. At least a few of the stages are shorter this year, it all really depends on what standard of teams are there. Some of the English teams now are stronger than before like Rapha and when a few of them get to the front it is very hard to do any sort of racing. It's always a buzz to ride with the likes of Kirsipuu, Eeckhout, van Bon etc. not forgetting Tony Martin and then the likes of Chris Newton, Dominique Rollin. And it's a great way to get a whistle stop tour of Ireland in a week. Oh and also semi closed roads, I've been stuck in the right hand gutter for miles on end hoping the guys ahead shout when there is a car coming!

You say you have done a few Ras at this stage how do you find the race has changed over the last say 5 or more years with regard to your point re the stronger international teams dictating the race and the county teams just making up the numbers..

Like when you have ex Tour and to be tour riders (T.Martin) its hard as you say for the Irish lads to compete.

Junior

I can give an example of how hard it is from last year, a break of 4 went off the front, a pair of county riders and two other non threats on G/C, one of the guys looks down at the clock, and they are f*ckin burying themselves off the front, doing 45mph on the flat off the front, he glances behind and the Rapha black line has the peleton stretched out and the break is all of 50metres off the front.

Stage wins are well within the capabilites of a number of the top county riders, but the control exerted by teams and d/s's with radio contact now means the days of a rider getting away for that elusive win are well and truely over, plus continetal riders are now much more used to racing from the gun, rather than the hell for leather attitude that greeted them in years gone by.

A lot of times it was like a tour stage, attack attack attack until the a group stayed away but now the 'pro' teams don't let anyone get away, and are more prepared for that style of racing. Also a lot of guys know from a pro team know that it can put them in the shop window, Dominque Rolland & Tony Martin are just two examples of that.

columbus_66

It changed in 2001 when the race went UCI, that meant you needed a minimun amount of pro teams to qualify and there was a specific prize fund required. That year the Telecom u23 team came over with David Kopp, Christian Knees, Stefan Schumacher, and Marcus Sieberg and they were well able to ride on the front at high speed. But there was also a super strong GB squad, the HSBC team, and a strong Polish squad. I found it uncomfortable that year even on the flat and there was a heatwave. But since then there have always been a few pro teams and most of the foreign teams were full time and would have done other stage races before the Ras. That leaves most of the Irish riders behind, especially on our diet of 60-70ml races where the break goes in the first few miles and it slows down after that! The bunch here is not strong enough to wind it up with 30mls to go to bring back a hard working break......Anyway most Irish riders know the score now and train better and quite a few of them are in good condition for the Ras and are well able to get through it.

DeadMan1

great to get some insight from within the peloton, thanks

RobFowl

Junior wrote: »

Stage wins are well within the capabilites of a number of the top county riders, but the control exerted by teams and d/s's with radio contact now means the days of a rider getting away for that elusive win are well and truely over, plus continetal riders are now much more used to racing from the gun, rather than the hell for leather attitude that greeted them in years gone by.

At least there are no radios this year, they are now banned at this level.

I was following the race in a car last year and the last stage into skerries the Rapha team kept it close to 50kpm for the first 2 hours.
The average speed for the race winner has been about 40kph for the last 5 years, that is about the same as the tour average (though no Alps or Pyrennes here thank God).

I'd suggest the OP look at riding part of the route and not the full one. It should be possible to ride the big climbs and the last 10-15k of each stage and still keep the overall distance to 100k or less by working out your own route. It's well worth trying to watch the finishes and a few of the big climbs as they can be quite exciting. Looking forward to the finish in Carrick this year myself.

There will probably be no signs BTW, they are put up that morning ahead of the race and taken down as soon as the race passes. Even the podium is gone usually within an hour of the finish.

Bikerbhoy

RobFowl wrote: »

. Looking forward to the finish in Carrick this year myself.

Ah Seskin Hill aint she a beauty, jez just thinking youd need to be there early enough to get a good spot wouldnt you ?

Toblerone1978

columbus_66 wrote: »

It changed in 2001 ......Anyway most Irish riders know the score now and train better and quite a few of them are in good condition for the Ras and are well able to get through it.

So is the change not a good thing then, bring up the standard??

Or has it been brought up too high for the Irish lads who the competition is suppose to be for?

I know nothing about cycling as a sport, so I could be talking total bull here

garminguy

thanks everyone for all the different points of view.
first of all the suggestion of doing it that morning is a good one,
because i will probably only attempt this once in my very ordinary life,i will be doing it exactly the same route that the riders will be, no shortcuts or avoiding steep hills, that would defeat the purpose of the challenge!

hopefully i will have a support car behind me in case of mechanical problems or equipment change.

i am only too aware that i will not be able to match the race pace, especially if i do it solo, but i want to finish each stage feeling like "i have left nothing in the locker room"

i am 40 years old but i am no niko!

i have been a cycling fan for the last 25 years ,both as a fan and as a competitor

if attempting this was easy it would not be a challenge

if anyone wants to keep me company on any day or part of it feel free to do so

Beasty

columbus_66 wrote: »

At least you can skip going up the Blackhills in Skerries 3 times at the end, now that is painful!

Tell me about it - shaungil had us doing this 5 times in quick succession - I had to stage a "convenient" accident to get out of this weekly torment:)

blorg

garminguy wrote: »

i am only too aware that i will not be able to match the race pace, especially if i do it solo, but i want to finish each stage feeling like "i have left nothing in the locker room"

If you do that you could well compromise subsequent stages, pacing is essential.

Have you ever done long multi-day stuff before?

I think you should do it (or a similar distance) this year to get a handle on how to manage a multi-day cycle. Then you can worry about doing it faster next year. I wouldn't try "fast as possible and empty myself" on your first multi-day cycle.

RobFowl

blorg wrote: »

If you do that you could well compromise subsequent stages, pacing is essential.

Have you ever done long multi-day stuff before?

I think you should do it (or a similar distance) this year to get a handle on how to manage a multi-day cycle. Then you can worry about doing it faster next year. I wouldn't try "fast as possible and empty myself" on your first multi-day cycle.

I gather you've no wife or kid's Blorg !

Trust me once they arrive then you stop worrying about next year and grab whatever chances come ...;)

blorg

My point is simply that before you can do the distance fast you need to be able to do the distance. He's going to have to get through that at some point.

Esroh

Garminguy

I rode 2 of the ToI challenges because I wanted to try the closest thing I'd ever get as a 40+ cycling fan to riding a multi stage event.
So if riding the route of the Ras ahead of the race is your thing then Good Luck to you.I can understand the appeal and if people can do it for the TOF why not someone do it for the classic Irish race the RAS

garminguy

RobFowl wrote: »

I gather you've no wife or kid's Blorg !

Trust me once they arrive then you stop worrying about next year and grab whatever chances come ...;)

lol
too true!
got four kids under 10 years of age.
my biggest challenge is finding the time for quality riding.
been back commutting to work again which is 60 km round trip and 2 long spins on weekends,

on a completely different note , saw sean lacey out for a training spin this morning in his new clubs gear(nice design)

ROK ON

Can someone explain something to me regarding race pace at various levels.
The RAS times look pretty savage, not that far from ProConti or ProTour level. What I cant understand is that if any RAS teams were to take part in a UCI1.1 or 2.1 event, in all liklihood they would be murdered. That being the case what is the difference between the various UCI ranked events, given that RAS is 2.2 AFAIK and the pace seems pretty savage.
Also, some of the Irish race threads here intimate that pace is usually mid 40'skm/h average, which is also close to pro level for races. If most club riders took part in the RAS they would find it very challenging. So again what is the difference.
Is it subtle changes in pace, is it stage length, is it that at the pro level, there are periods of the year where you simply do it every day.
I know this is sort of off topic, but just seemed apt given the discussion in this thread.

RobFowl

ROK ON wrote: »

Can someone explain something to me regarding race pace at various levels.
The RAS times look pretty savage, not that far from ProConti or ProTour level. What I cant understand is that if any RAS teams were to take part in a UCI1.1 or 2.1 event, in all liklihood they would be murdered. That being the case what is the difference between the various UCI ranked events, given that RAS is 2.2 AFAIK and the pace seems pretty savage.
Also, some of the Irish race threads here intimate that pace is usually mid 40'skm/h average, which is also close to pro level for races. If most club riders took part in the RAS they would find it very challenging. So again what is the difference.
Is it subtle changes in pace, is it stage length, is it that at the pro level, there are periods of the year where you simply do it every day.
I know this is sort of off topic, but just seemed apt given the discussion in this thread.

I'd say the average sppeds are a little misleading comared to 2.1 and HC races because the RAS tends to go from the gun. Literally as soon as the flag is dropped someone will attack and that goes on all day. Bigger races start more steadily but speed up dramatically towards the finish. Also the terrain is a bit flatter than most on the continent.

Also look at the winners of recent RAS's, they are all high profile riders who compete well on the continent as well. The average of the winner is alot quicker than those lower down. there were 3 1/2 hours from first to last on GC in 2009. So while the top riders will be able to compete abroad alot of those finishing (no mean feat) would struggle badly.

Junior

ROK ON wrote: »

Can someone explain something to me regarding race pace at various levels.
The RAS times look pretty savage, not that far from ProConti or ProTour level. What I cant understand is that if any RAS teams were to take part in a UCI1.1 or 2.1 event, in all liklihood they would be murdered. That being the case what is the difference between the various UCI ranked events, given that RAS is 2.2 AFAIK and the pace seems pretty savage.
Also, some of the Irish race threads here intimate that pace is usually mid 40'skm/h average, which is also close to pro level for races. If most club riders took part in the RAS they would find it very challenging. So again what is the difference.
Is it subtle changes in pace, is it stage length, is it that at the pro level, there are periods of the year where you simply do it every day.
I know this is sort of off topic, but just seemed apt given the discussion in this thread.

There's a big difference in hanging in there at those speeds and having one maybe two moments where something goes wrong, and maybe in a Cat 1 race you get shelled and stroll home, with the Rás you can lose an hour, you can lose the head, and yet you still need to go out and do it the next day.

The main difference between Amateurs and I use that term in a non derogatory term for county riders, as they do (in the main) do have full time jobs, families and other commitments, and the Pro riders is the ability to repeat a performance day in and day out without that one moment of 'weakness' or 'suffering' costing them anything.

It's the same as from the next level up, the power, the recovery, the ability to hide a weakness, the reserves that top cyclists have can only be developed with time, effort and in no part a huge amount of natural ability. I suppose the only other thing I can compare the Rás to is the FA Cup where you see lower league team's getting a thumping from League 1 and Premiersh*t teams, a certain amount of hard work, endeavour, skill and nous will get you to a level, but the pro's do this day in day out. They are paid pretty well to do this job, the less well able to do the job don't survive.

garminguy

when i say race pace what i mean is at 75 to 80 % level upping the pace towards the end.

because of my advancing years i don't expect to be able to match the average speeds of the main race,just within the limits of my ability and strength.