Dublin City Centre Loading bays - Lesson learned

n0brain3r

Sorry if this info & questions are somewhere else but I searched on couldn't find this exact issue.

A heads up to all commercial drivers out there or maybe just the ignorant ones like me . I was clamped (Plus at least two other commercial vehicles)on Talbot Street today for parking my commercially taxed land cruiser in a Loading Bay for longer than 30 minutes as per S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997 section 42.1 . Although the clampers claimed it was City Bye laws or it's in the rules of the road mate - cretins.

Now I completely understand I violated the regulations and was punished accordingly i.e. clamped and paid the €80 to be released. I've been ignorant of this for years as I've parked in the same place every month or so for the last 5 or 6 years and was never clamped!

My problem with this is when parking in Loading Bays around the country mostly Kildare and Meath but sometimes as far afield as Cork and Galway! I check the signs some say 30mins max stay some say 2 hours and some just list the times the loading bay is active as is the case in the City Centre I'd always assumed that if a limit wasn't posted it didn't exist.

Now am I expecting a bit much expecting a sign to say 30mins max in the City off the top of my head I can only think of the one outside the courthouse in Naas? I know ignorance of the law is no excuse but I'm I right in expecting a uniform approach to displaying the limits on loading bays?

The loading bays that specify you can stay for two hours are these irrelevant based on the Road Traffic Regulations above?

Is there any point in appealing? If I'd parked dangerously, on double yellow lines, a clearway or even over stayed I'd understand it was quite blatant I broke the law and could be penalised. This just seems underhanded the act being applied differently depending on your location.

Just to add some insult to injury I took some pics on my phone I've attached them! I won't even get into my conversation with the clampers I think it belongs in R&R :mad:

Run_to_da_hills

I have been driving commercials most of my life and have always taken for granted that loading bays around the country are 30 minutes however there are certain towns down the country that I would know I would get away with it for a lot longer.

In Dublin it has always been by the book with any type of parking, and one thing I go appreciate about the city is that they will slap tickets / clamp on non commercial vehicles that hog loading bays unlike Limerick where I have often found it impossible to get a place.

Vic_08

I think this is 100% justified. Loading bays are for loading, not for cute hoors who have SUVs with blanked back windows to park all day for free.

I wouldn't be surprised if that loading bay was targeted because genuine users complained it was constantly blocked with parked vehicles.

Victor

In fairness, its a loading bay, its for loading and unloading, not parking. Any commercial driver should know that anything to do with loading is limited to 30 minutes.

n0brain3r wrote: »

A heads up to all commercial drivers out there or maybe just the ignorant ones like me . I was clamped (Plus at least two other commercial vehicles)on Talbot Street today for parking my commercially taxed land cruiser in a Loading Bay for longer than 30 minutes as per S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997 section 42.1 . Although the clampers claimed it was City Bye laws or it's in the rules of the road mate - cretins.

The constitution enables the Road Traffic Acts, which enable the regulations and bye-laws. Fair cop.

corktina

Yeah bang to rights. I wish they'd book all the Eircom and ESB vans too. There shouldnt need to be a time limit as it SHOULD be a case of pull up, load/unload and off to the next one. Unfortunately in my experiance you have a real struggle to get into a loading pay because of all the people taking advantage. TWO HOURS to load unload..!!! Jezz Id do 20 calls in that time!

vandriver

A loading bay is for a maximum of 30 minutes while actively loading/unloading,not parking your jeep .Pay in a parking space next time.

Run_to_da_hills

vandriver wrote: »

A loading bay is for a maximum of 30 minutes while actively loading/unloading,not parking your jeep .Pay in a parking space next time.

I witnessed two clampers abandon their vehicle on a loading bay on South Gt Georges St and walk into a restaurant across the road for a sit down lunch, is this a breach of their duties?

schemingbohemia

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I witnessed two clampers abandon their vehicle on a loading bay on South Gt Georges St and walk into a restaurant across the road for a sit down lunch, is this a breach of their duties?

Yes and presumably you reported it after waiting around to see if they hadn't returned in 30 minutes?

trellheim

Here is the SI

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

The relevant section I believe is 42 :

42. (1) Where traffic sign number RRM 009 [Loading Bay] is provided, a vehicle other than a goods vehicle being used for loading or unloading shall not be parked during a period which shall be indicated on an information plate.


(2) A goods vehicle being used for loading or unloading shall not be parked in a loading bay for a period exceeding 30 minutes.

( if you look at the bottom of that SI you can see it overrides nearly all the extant Byelaws at the time )

Also this is a Regulation not a byelaw. I think there is some legal difference.


Is that what you were looking for ?

PCPhoto

its plain and simple - with the recession the clampers are looking to scrimp and scrape money from all angles.

I've seen them clamp people on double yellows and people with 1 or 2 wheels up on the footpath - even if the path is very wide (one poor driver must have been disgusted when he got back as other cars also parked in the same street were not clamped as they didnt go onto the footpath)..... yes - they are within their right to clamp these people and the drivers have learned a lesson.

OP - unless they have marked your car (chalk on tyre - which I think they arent allowed to do) or stayed watching it for 30mins they cannot 100% verify that you didnt leave the space during the 30mins they claim you were sitting in the loading bay, I had this arguement with a clamper in the past - as I was parked in a loading bay, did my drop off (obviously the clampers noted the van) ..... went off up to the shop (in my fiesta van) .... had to return to previous drop off ...so went back down .... and got clamped while I was in first drop off point (for a second time) - I argued - but they just said pay it and appeal it....they cant/wont do anything.

However - on another occasion I got back to the van in time only for one of the clampers to mouth " next time I'll clamp it straight away" .... at which I erupted and told him that his statement is completely illegal and if he or anyone else clamps me without giving me the allotted time allowed I will take a personal action against the clamper and also an action against the clamping authority - given that technically you have to assume guilt by paying before you can release (presumption of guilt instead of presumption of innocence)

Jip

PCPhoto wrote: »

I've seen them clamp people on double yellows and people with 1 or 2 wheels up on the footpath - even if the path is very wide (one poor driver must have been disgusted when he got back as other cars also parked in the same street were not clamped as they didnt go onto the footpath)..... yes - they are within their right to clamp these people and the drivers have learned a lesson.

I fail to see your point here ?

PCPhoto

Jip wrote: »

I fail to see your point here ?

its illegal to park on the footpath....all the other cars were parked in a cycle lane (which stops being a cycle lane at 7pm) .... however this person was parked with 2 wheels on the path - which in his/her mind left extra room for traffic to pass - but its illegal and he/she was clamped.

EDIT: it was after 7pm that this happened.

I felt sorry ...watching the clampers "attack" this car only and leave the rest alone.

EDIT2: I've also seen them drive around pay and display housing estates and clamp cars at 7am - which I think is unfair.

markpb

PCPhoto wrote: »

its plain and simple - with the recession the clampers are looking to scrimp and scrape money from all angles.

AFAIK DCC clampers are paid a wage and their company is paid a fixed fee by the local authority. They have no financial incentive to clamp excessively and, I think, the last company were let go precisely because they _did_ clamp excessively.

I've seen them clamp people on double yellows

Illegal.

and people with 1 or 2 wheels up on the footpath

Illegal

When people learn to following parking regulations, clampers won't make any money.

DWCommuter

PCPhoto wrote: »

OP - unless they have marked your car (chalk on tyre - which I think they arent allowed to do) or stayed watching it for 30mins they cannot 100% verify that you didnt leave the space during the 30mins they claim you were sitting in the loading bay, I had this arguement with a clamper in the past - as I was parked in a loading bay, did my drop off (obviously the clampers noted the van) ..... went off up to the shop (in my fiesta van) .... had to return to previous drop off ...so went back down .... and got clamped while I was in first drop off point (for a second time) - I argued - but they just said pay it and appeal it....they cant/wont do anything.

However - on another occasion I got back to the van in time only for one of the clampers to mouth " next time I'll clamp it straight away" .... at which I erupted and told him that his statement is completely illegal and if he or anyone else clamps me without giving me the allotted time allowed I will take a personal action against the clamper and also an action against the clamping authority - given that technically you have to assume guilt by paying before you can release (presumption of guilt instead of presumption of innocence)

The OP was in the wrong. The thread has established that.

But the above statement by PCPhoto is an interesting one that I have witnessed in similar circumstances. A few years ago in a provincial town, I got a parking ticket for being parked in a free 2 hour zone (those were the days):D for over the permitted time. I refused to pay the ticket. As a result I received a summons for court. In court I was asked how did I plead to which I responded, Not Guilty. As I was representing myself the Judge told me that I could question the Traffic Warden. (who gave his evidence from the dock) So I asked him, on what basis had he come to the conclusion that my vehicle was parked in the same space for more than the permitted time? He consulted his notebook and said that he recorded the vehicle parked at a certain time and then recorded it parked in the same space more than two hours later. So my second and final question was, "Could the car have been moved during the times he recorded it parked in that space and then reparked in the same space?" His reply,"I suppose so". Struck out. Happy days.

Drinking pints with Solicitor friends has it benefits.;)

enda1

I remember hearing that you can "park" at a double yellow line for loading reasons, is this true?

If so what's the time limit and therefore how is it different to a loading bay? (Other than the commercial vehicles only bit I guess)

DWCommuter

enda1 wrote: »

I remember hearing that you can "park" at a double yellow line for loading reasons, is this true?

If so what's the time limit and therefore how is it different to a loading bay? (Other than the commercial vehicles only bit I guess)

Ive heard the same thing over the years and have done it (without causing a major obstruction to traffic) without any hassle from traffic wardens or gardai.

markpb

DWCommuter wrote: »

Ive heard the same thing over the years and have done it (without causing a major obstruction to traffic) without any hassle from traffic wardens or gardai.

I've never seen Gardai (in Dublin, anyway) bother too much about parking violations in general I suspect this is a myth but I had a look online. RTS(A) 1969 says:

(ii) two parallel continuous yellow lines approximately four inches apart extending along the edge of a roadway in a built-up area, each line being approximately four inches wide, and the line nearest to the edge of the roadway being situated approximately twelve inches from that edge—to indicate that parking of vehicles is prohibited or restricted at any time on that side of the roadway;

That's quite old so it could have been modified but if it has, I can't find it. The only possible candidate I could find is in RTS(R) 1997 but I don't think it applies to double yellow lines, only to access-only roads.

"access" means entry or exit by vehicles to or from premises adjacent to or accessible only from a road and includes stopping a vehicle on a roadway solely for the purposes of loading or unloading goods on to or from such vehicle from or to such premises;

Breezer

markpb wrote: »

I've never seen Gardai (in Dublin, anyway) bother too much about parking violations in general

I got a ticket from the Guards about two years ago for having two wheels up on the path. This was a road in Booterstown with a very wide path, cars parked on both sides, and a narrow road; I thought I was helping the flow of traffic without impeding footpath users. Granted, it was illegal, I paid the fine, and didn't do it again. They've since put double yellows on one side of the road.

A friend got a ticket from them in Castleknock while legally parked a few months back, as did everyone parked in front of and behind him (all legally). Nuts.

Then again I've seen the Guards drive past cars parked completely (all four wheels) on the path, on a corner, so I guess it depends on their mood.

kasakins

you can legally park on double yellow lines for up to 30 mins as long as you are activelly loading or unloading and not causing an obstruction.

alexlyons

I was outside bloomfields in Dún Laoghaire a while back. There is a loading bay outside that pub there, and I pulled in just to grab my 7 year old sister from a party in the IMC. There was a traffic corp's guard ticketing every single car in the line (non were commercial) and he came up to me and said he had to ticket me if I got out of the car, as it was a loading bay. I told him I was just running in and could he not look the other way for 3 minutes, naturally he said no, but he did say that if I was to pull over to the double yellow lines, he would have to observe me for 20 minutes. Sound lad, no ticket all happy.

Also, when I was lifeguarding on seapoint, the ticket lad came down for his lunch and a chat. Told us that if you're in the drivers seat (or any adult that looks like they could be the driver, ie not a child) then you are technically "waiting" so they can't ticket you. A few weeks later, and I had pulled into the ambulance spot just to run into the hut and grab the keys for the bollards so I could park up behind them, when I came out the same lad from before was there about to take a photo and write a ticket. I told him I was just getting keys. His response "ye ye thats what they all say". He told me that only the lifeguards have keys and to stop lying that I was getting the ticket anyway. I kind of was like "oh right ye" as I took of my hoody to reveal the lifeguard t-shirt. Suffice to say, that shut him up! surprised he didn't recognise me!

markpb

kasakins wrote: »

you can legally park on double yellow lines for up to 30 mins as long as you are activelly loading or unloading and not causing an obstruction.

Can you back that up with legislation? (out of curiosity) Does that still apply if there is a single white line or other reason to prevent you parking there?

DWCommuter

markpb wrote: »

Can you back that up with legislation? (out of curiosity) Does that still apply if there is a single white line or other reason to prevent you parking there?

Same question. Ive heard about this apparent law, but is it in legislation. It certainly causes no problems from my experience and Ive done it in a mixture of private and commercial vehicles.

DWCommuter

alexlyons wrote: »

I was outside bloomfields in Dún Laoghaire a while back. There is a loading bay outside that pub there, and I pulled in just to grab my 7 year old sister from a party in the IMC. There was a traffic corp's guard ticketing every single car in the line (non were commercial) and he came up to me and said he had to ticket me if I got out of the car, as it was a loading bay. I told him I was just running in and could he not look the other way for 3 minutes, naturally he said no, but he did say that if I was to pull over to the double yellow lines, he would have to observe me for 20 minutes. Sound lad, no ticket all happy.

Also, when I was lifeguarding on seapoint, the ticket lad came down for his lunch and a chat. Told us that if you're in the drivers seat (or any adult that looks like they could be the driver, ie not a child) then you are technically "waiting" so they can't ticket you. A few weeks later, and I had pulled into the ambulance spot just to run into the hut and grab the keys for the bollards so I could park up behind them, when I came out the same lad from before was there about to take a photo and write a ticket. I told him I was just getting keys. His response "ye ye thats what they all say". He told me that only the lifeguards have keys and to stop lying that I was getting the ticket anyway. I kind of was like "oh right ye" as I took of my hoody to reveal the lifeguard t-shirt. Suffice to say, that shut him up! surprised he didn't recognise me!

At the end of the day when it comes to traffic wardens, clampers and gardai, its down to the individuals personality and attitude. A poor attitude and personality will inevitably lead to antagonism and a lack of common sense being applied while a good attitude and personality will lead to a fair and balanced application of the law.

kravmaga

n0brain3r wrote: »

Sorry if this info & questions are somewhere else but I searched on couldn't find this exact issue.

A heads up to all commercial drivers out there or maybe just the ignorant ones like me . I was clamped (Plus at least two other commercial vehicles)on Talbot Street today for parking my commercially taxed land cruiser in a Loading Bay for longer than 30 minutes as per S.I. No. 182/1997: ROAD TRAFFIC (TRAFFIC AND PARKING) REGULATIONS, 1997 section 42.1 . Although the clampers claimed it was City Bye laws or it's in the rules of the road mate - cretins.

Now I completely understand I violated the regulations and was punished accordingly i.e. clamped and paid the €80 to be released. I've been ignorant of this for years as I've parked in the same place every month or so for the last 5 or 6 years and was never clamped!

My problem with this is when parking in Loading Bays around the country mostly Kildare and Meath but sometimes as far afield as Cork and Galway! I check the signs some say 30mins max stay some say 2 hours and some just list the times the loading bay is active as is the case in the City Centre I'd always assumed that if a limit wasn't posted it didn't exist.

Now am I expecting a bit much expecting a sign to say 30mins max in the City off the top of my head I can only think of the one outside the courthouse in Naas? I know ignorance of the law is no excuse but I'm I right in expecting a uniform approach to displaying the limits on loading bays?

The loading bays that specify you can stay for two hours are these irrelevant based on the Road Traffic Regulations above?

Is there any point in appealing? If I'd parked dangerously, on double yellow lines, a clearway or even over stayed I'd understand it was quite blatant I broke the law and could be penalised. This just seems underhanded the act being applied differently depending on your location.

Just to add some insult to injury I took some pics on my phone I've attached them! I won't even get into my conversation with the clampers I think it belongs in R&R :mad:

Were you making a delivery or collection?

Are you a goods vehicle?

I note from your photos you have no logo on your vehicle.

Have you a photo of the signage post regarding the loading bay operation.

On page 117 of the Rules of the Road in goes into great detail on Loading bays. Its sates nothing about commercial vehicles allowed to park their.

n0brain3r

Vic_08 wrote: »

I think this is 100% justified. Loading bays are for loading, not for cute hoors who have SUVs with blanked back windows to park all day for free.

I wouldn't be surprised if that loading bay was targeted because genuine users complained it was constantly blocked with parked vehicles.

It's hardly a SUV an 02 Landcruiser with almost 200K on the clock and not a single straight line left on it :)The blanked out windows are nothing to do with being a cute hoor its a requirement when any vehicle is taxed commercially along with removing seats and belts etc.

Victor wrote: »

In fairness, its a loading bay, its for loading and unloading, not parking. Any commercial driver should know that anything to do with loading is limited to 30 minutes.

Fair enough but I deliver all over the country and as I said some places post a max of 2 hours others 30mins so I always check the signs if I know I'll get everything delivered in 30mins I use that bay if it takes longer I'll use one with a longer time posted or just pay for parking. What got to me here was that no limit was posted and I'd wrongly assumed that no limit applied. I swop kit out under warranty so typically any job involves dropping something off and boxing up the defective machine for return so not a straight forward drop off and not always quick!

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Were you making a delivery or collection?

Are you a goods vehicle?

I note from your photos you have no logo on your vehicle.

Have you a photo of the signage post regarding the loading bay operation.

On page 117 of the Rules of the Road in goes into great detail on Loading bays. Its sates nothing about commercial vehicles allowed to park their.

I was doing both delivering and collecting.

Not personally but I use the jeep to collect and deliver goods so I guess its a goods vehicle

Used to have signage on it and since it was removed I've had no more break ins.

The second photo is the sign covering the loading bay in question.

The parking was coincidental I was actively loading and unloading just at about 10/15 minute intervals

The main point of my post was

A. To give others who where as in the dark as myself regards no time limts being posted was that one existed at least two other drivers had the same thing happen and were clamped on Talbot street.

B.To ask am I right in thinking its a little underhanded given that most loading bays across the country carry signage indicating the max stay.

C. Do the regulations I quoted mean that any such signage is irreleivant?

Victor

markpb wrote: »

Can you back that up with legislation? (out of curiosity) Does that still apply if there is a single white line or other reason to prevent you parking there?

Do you mean a solid white centre line? If there are only two traffic lanes you should never park there. And where there are three lanes, its rather inconsiderate to stop ont he side with one lane and a solid white line.

n0brain3r wrote: »

C. Do the regulations I quoted mean that any such signage is irreleivant?

Hmm, I wonder if 2 hour loading bays are legal, but I doubt if a judge would convict if there was a council sign saying you could park / load in the loading bay for 2 hours .

cormie

corktina wrote: »

TWO HOURS to load unload..!!! Jezz Id do 20 calls in that time!

A lot of my loads would take a lot longer than 30 minutes. I could be unloading an apartment where the customer isn't organised at all and doesn't really know what they are taking with nothing packed properly so you could be away from the van for a good while and if they live on the 5th floor with no lift it only ads to it. Any passing clamper van is more likely to see the van locked up with nobody at it each time they pass rather than being actively loaded, even though it is, which is worrying when the limit is 30 minutes

enda1 wrote: »

I remember hearing that you can "park" at a double yellow line for loading reasons, is this true?

If so what's the time limit and therefore how is it different to a loading bay? (Other than the commercial vehicles only bit I guess)

This is true, 30 minutes aswell providing you are not breaking any other parking laws (solid white centre line like Victor described, 5m to a junction, 15m to traffic lights-I think etc).

What I wonder though is going into tesco to load a few bits of shopping into your van considered loading? Or going into a cafe to load some soup into your tummy and then load your tummy back into the van? It's commercial activity after all if you pay for it :P

alexlyons

cormie wrote: »

What I wonder though is going into tesco to load a few bits of shopping into your van considered loading? Or going into a cafe to load some soup into your tummy and then load your tummy back into the van? It's commercial activity after all if you pay for it :P

well i suppose if you're buying stuff in tesco for the "business" it should be, or a nice business lunch in a café

kasakins

Double Yellow Lines

No parking on a double-yellow line at any time.
Exceptions

You can park on a double yellow line for a maximum of 30 minutes while actively loading or unloading a vehicle.



this is from the Dublin City Council website. I have a relation who works as a clamper so i hear all the storys and the excuses when people get clamped. . Only one way to make sure it doenst happen, park legally.

Victor

cormie wrote: »

A lot of my loads would take a lot longer than 30 minutes. I could be unloading an apartment where the customer isn't organised at all and doesn't really know what they are taking with nothing packed properly so you could be away from the van for a good while and if they live on the 5th floor with no lift it only ads to it. Any passing clamper van is more likely to see the van locked up with nobody at it each time they pass rather than being actively loaded, even though it is, which is worrying when the limit is 30 minutes

Best thing to do in such a situation is to either use pay parking (and bill the client if you want) or a visitors permit (resident will need to obtain this) or talk to the city council, they full understand people moving property have a genuine need for specialised parking and may give you guidance. There may be a specific permit that you can obtain.

What I wonder though is going into tesco to load a few bits of shopping into your van considered loading? Or going into a cafe to load some soup into your tummy and then load your tummy back into the van? It's commercial activity after all if you pay for it :P

I'd need to check the rules, but I imagine there is a rule requiring it to be in the essence of a business to business transaction or a delivery from a business. However, teh mian point is that it needs to be continuous loading / unloading.

cormie

Yeah, I do also remember there is 10/15 minutes allowed for dealing with documents also? I don't know if that's in any legislation or if I just read it on here before though.

I think the sign writing on my van helps anyway, I've only been clamped the one time while doing an apartment move, I was in a P&D area without a ticket (at 9.50pm, it was my first lesson that there are P&D areas PAST 7pm!!). The clampers saw me coming out lifting bags and boxes with the client and said you'd appeal it no problem, we see you're loading. Appeal didn't work :mad:

jaykhunter

Hey lads, gotta ask (I've read through this thread but couldn't find a straight answer)

Outside the hours of a loading bay (7am-7pm mon-sat) does it become a normal parking space for a regular driver? Is there somewhere that has it in writing? The DCC website just tells you that you can't park in a loading zone during said hours but not what happens outside those hours.

Thanks, Jay

cormie

Yup, it's fine to park in outside of the loading bay hours.

Cookie_Monster

jaykhunter wrote: »

Hey lads, gotta ask (I've read through this thread but couldn't find a straight answer)

Outside the hours of a loading bay (7am-7pm mon-sat) does it become a normal parking space for a regular driver? Is there somewhere that has it in writing? The DCC website just tells you that you can't park in a loading zone during said hours but not what happens outside those hours.

Thanks, Jay

a lot of them now become taxi ranks in the CC now so watch out for that.

jaykhunter

cheers, it's a bit of a grey area. I'm specifically talking about the small loading bay on Marlborough Street, it's beside some parking spaces and opposite the Q parking lot, so there is free parking from Sat 7pm to Monday morning if you happen to find a space.

Is there anything i could quote in case i do get a clamped?