22 WMR OR 17 HMR???

sako75 hunter

Hey lads. Now that the deer season is over until september i was thinking of buying a 22wmr or a 17hmr. I used to own a 22wmr lakefield about 6 years ago but i sold it before i moved to england for a couple of years. What i want to know is that if you were going to buy a small rifle for rabbits and a few foxes what would you go for. I have been told that the 17 hmr doesnt perform as well in windy conditions as it does the calm. Anyway lads your taughts please.

ivanthehunter

Bullets with the standard round nose shape don't behave well in terms of aerodynamic qualities at speeds of around 1900-2000fps and thats the range of the wmr and to top it off these bullets have bad performance in term of there down range aerodynamic performance as the drag increases on the base at speed below 1900fps and this is very disturbing as it only slacks off at around 1300-1400fps IIRC..

Now the boat tailed spizter styled bullet shape in the 17hmr has a co-efficient of drag that only half of the wmr bullets so its less effected by noes pressure and base drag but it lacks weight and is unable to deliver the same down range energy as the 22wmr. But its a tack driver.

The WMR will deliver something like 320ft/lbs and the 17hmr is only kick out 245 approx IIRC.

If your looking for precise target work and the ability to put out a rabbits eye the the 17 is the job and it will certainly kill foxes out to 100-130yards- but the 22mag will go at least out to 150yards IMHO on foxes..

AFAIK rabbits shot with a 22mag will burst and there will be too much damage for eating- thats unless you take a head shot and the 22mag lower accuracy combined with a trajectory thats on the whole more challenging will make you work for your shots.

BUT no matter what you pick- you should not be killing rabbits out of season unless they are causing a nuisance!! Remember that good husbandry is up to you and as JWshooter said here a day or two ago " You can look at them every day but you can only shoot them the once"

Regards Ivan

Look this has been ironed out here in several threads before and its my honest opinion that the 17 is a better rifle for the beginner(Not aimed at OP), especially when considered against the 22lr- These 17s are inherently accurate and this accuracy is definitely repeatable time and time again. Too many people waist both time and money trying to get the best accuracy they can with high velocity .22 standard shaped bullets and I'm afraid that its just not possible with speeds below 2000fps and with speeds above this the standard nose shape cause trouble..
I personally would love to load some of my own design but alas this hole of a country won't allow reloading because the country is ran by idiots who are scare of their own shadows!! RANT OVER!:rolleyes:

bigdogfox

very well put together there ivanthehunter,

i started out a couple of years ago with a .22wmr and shot well over a hundred bunnies on a organic vegtable farm that they were reeking havoc on,my mate had a .17hmr and the couple of times he came with me i noticed that i was getting a kill out to 100 yards before the bullet really started to drop while he was streching out to about 130 with the .17,
on 2 occasions we went foxing and with the help of a good caller I found that I could kill a fox out to 100 yards with a head (obviously ),neck or chest shot while my mate put a bullet in charlie with the .17 in the chest at 100 which didnt kill the fox which is totally unfair to the animal and not a nice feeling playing on your mind,.thankfully we got a kill with the second shot but really these cal's. are too small for foxes..

ivanthehunter

Just in terms of bucking the wind! i have heard different reports and TBH they were totally conflicting!

It would seem that the reduced drag on the 17's would not allow them to interface with any wind to the same extent as a round nose traveling in the 950 to 2000fps(common refereed to as the extended transonic zone) range and as the hmr is flying at 2350 and 2250 for the 25grain and the 17 grain respective IIRC and with a lower drag co-eff it can not be effected to the same degree with in short ranges IMO.
However due to its lower weight it will suffer at extended ranges by any lateral force to a larger degree than a heaver bullet but we all must remember that it gets to the target much quicker- so even if all things where equal(and they ain't) these external forces would have less time to interact!!

Personal I would go with a sako quad except for those hammer forged barrels which I'm unsure of!! But its still a four in one gun!! that sort of circumvent the security requirements IMO but don't go quoting me on that.
The sako definitely have the advantage of the HM2 with its similar shaped .17/17grain bullet but with 100ft/lbs less it real preserves the bunnies for the pot..and the smoking jackets are still usable- I have yet to try it but all reports are good!
It knocks out 140 ft/lbs and has a muzzle velocity of 2100fps. It still has the same drag co-eff as the HMR but its much closer to the extended transonic zone but this effect should not really be noticeable until you pass 100meters or 300 foot and at a vel of 1800fps and even at that you'd have to have a degree in Rockets:rolleyes: to measure the effect..

What the moral here! Well any 22cal should not be considered for accuracy if the muzzle velocity is in this extended transonic zone. So accurate 22lr are subsonic eaters. According to this train of thought your next accurate 22 would be a Hornet-Muz vel 2550 IIRC The hornet also has a better nose shape but this is demanded as above 2000fps noes pressure increase dramatically.
Now a 22lr that would give more power with subsonic accuracy would be 1;10 twist rated barrel firing Aguila SSS 60grain sub sonic ammo but with a name of SubSonicSniper its importation is AFAIK restricted or prohibited which is believable for Ireland but is madness in reality. The bullets are slower moving having a Muz vel of only around 900fps and at this speed they are least effected by base drag or nose pressure and their massive weight helps them with down range energy and stability. As all heave slow moving objects have trajectories that are closer to their "fired in a vacuum trajectories" they tend to lose less speed per second per second or inotherword their deceleration is substantially slower or in other word the ballistic co-eff is very good. I think

Anyway speeds:-
-Below 1000 or even 950 down as far as 900 will give high accuracy regardless of bullet profile- within reason!!:rolleyes:
-At 1000 to 2000 both base shape and noes shape are important but realistically this range should be avoided at all costs<Also note that with improved bullet shape, drag at this top value of 2000 drops>
-Above 2000 nose shape becomes the dominate critical factor yet bot tail bullets are still desired. At these speeds bullets are losing at least one fps per foot traveled so a bullet at 2400 fps might have a velocity of only 2000fps after 400feet/125meters--So its easy to see how quickly your bullets will fall foul of the transonic extended range..
In terms of Boat tail designs i have read that those lucky lucky folk who reload in the rest of Europe are now using rebated boat tails. these seem to stop the muzzle blast from converging in front of the bullet causing irregularities in the aerodynamic..

Hope this has been an eye opener for some readers I certainly was for me...

Regards Ivanthebowhunter..

yubabill

Guys, have serious reservations about the 17 for foxes, but a really good hunter....etc

When I had one, some years ago I cranked the zero back to 100 yds, because missed so many crouching rabbits with 150 yd zero and only took 2 shots ever at 150 (both successful). Point; you don't really need 150 yd range for rabbits in eire, if you do either the conditions are exceptional or fieldcraft is at fault.

17HMR ruins the carcass for eating, if that is your aim.
ditto 22WMR.

For many years I used 22lr for rabbits, you can realistically get 75yds effective range with any ammo and this is usually enough imho. Not great for foxes, though- headshot best. Strangely, subsonic ammo very accurate at longer ranges (see ivanthe hunter thread for reasons) but really need range finder for max effect.

if you decide in 17HMR or 22Wmr, you really need a suppressor or you will scare other rabbits in the vicinity

deerhunter1

sako75 hunter wrote: »

Hey lads. Now that the deer season is over until september i was thinking of buying a 22wmr or a 17hmr. I used to own a 22wmr lakefield about 6 years ago but i sold it before i moved to england for a couple of years. What i want to know is that if you were going to buy a small rifle for rabbits and a few foxes what would you go for. I have been told that the 17 hmr doesnt perform as well in windy conditions as it does the calm. Anyway lads your taughts please.

17 brilliant

bunny shooter

For what you say you want 22 WMR/.22lr

cavan shooter

If you ask me and you want to take a fox at 100 yrds or so then i'd say the 22 WMR, 40 grain hollow points. Did so for years

The 17 HMR is a nice round but its too small and frangible. Excellent on crows and rabbits but not fox.

I have a 22 hornet for foxes and a 22 lr for bunnies etc

doyle61

theres a really good article on this, (.22 vs .17hmr), in this months sporting rifle magazine, page 55.

ivanthehunter

doyle61 wrote: »

theres a really good article on this, (.22 vs .17hmr), in this months sporting rifle magazine, page 55.

Went to shops today but couldn't find a copy:mad:
Do you have a scanner?;)

sako75 hunter

thanks guys for the replys, im thinking the 17hmr would be the way to go for rabbits but think i be looking at the 22wmr. i know the 17 is more accurate but not suitable for foxes. i will be using the 22wmr for foxes and from what youve said it is better and more humaine for charlie than the 17. thanks again guys.:)

poulo6.5

sako75 hunter wrote: »

thanks guys for the replys, im thinking the 17hmr would be the way to go for rabbits but think i be looking at the 22wmr. i know the 17 is more accurate but not suitable for foxes. i will be using the 22wmr for foxes and from what youve said it is better and more humaine for charlie than the 17. thanks again guys.:)

sorry for throwing in my 2 cent but .223;)

poulo6.5

BUT no matter what you pick- you should not be killing rabbits out of season unless they are causing a nuisance!! Remember that good husbandry is up to you and as JWshooter said here a day or two ago " You can look at them every day but you can only shoot them the once"


hi iven i was not aware of a bunny season???

sako75 hunter

Thanks for the reply paulo, but would a 223 not be a bit over doing it for rabbits? I have no experience with a 223 but i know guys that use it for foxes and swear buy it but dont think they use it for rabbits. id use my own 6.5 for bunnies only for the bullets are almost 1.50 a pop!!!:D

poulo6.5

sako75 hunter wrote: »

Thanks for the reply paulo, but would a 223 not be a bit over doing it for rabbits? I have no experience with a 223 but i know guys that use it for foxes and swear buy it but dont think they use it for rabbits. id use my own 6.5 for bunnies only for the bullets are almost 1.50 a pop!!!:D

it is a bit much for the bunny's alright , a body just turns them inside out which is fine if you only want to feed the dog. a head shot will completely remove the head which is fine to cos you only cut the head off anyway.

i use my cz .22lr for the bunny's with great results [ head only ] . and the .223 takes care of charly.

i dont think there is one round that does it all but i had a .22wmr for a long time and it did me for bunny's and fox .

.22lr €4.50 a box of 50. .22wmr €20 a box of 50. .223 €13- €30 per box of 20.
that = 9c .22lr shot . 40c .22wmr shot. 65c-€150 .223 shot.

all depends on what you are doing at the time.

sako75 hunter

Think ill go with what i know and go with the 22wmr. In my neck of the woods i dont regularly get to shoot any more than 150-200 yrds max. Thats the joys of living in the hills. Im more knowledgeable of deer calibres than i would be of rimfires. How much would i expect to pay for a new 22wmr, i guess cz would be the most popular rimfire on the market?

kay 9

sako75 hunter wrote: »

Think ill go with what i know and go with the 22wmr. In my neck of the woods i dont regularly get to shoot any more than 150-200 yrds max. Thats the joys of living in the hills. Im more knowledgeable of deer calibres than i would be of rimfires. How much would i expect to pay for a new 22wmr, i guess cz would be the most popular rimfire on the market?

The Cz silouette is a nice choice, few lads have them here I think, they can shed soem light I'm sure on the issue. They can be got in Duffys in Galway for abt 550 i think. Nice fellas to deal with too:rolleyes: But if the price is right;)

ivanthehunter

In term of which to go for -wmr or hmr -one could have both with a sako quad

Any sako quad users out there who are willing to spill the beans on these gun safe fillers;)??

sako75 hunter

About the sako quad, whats the story with the four calibres you can use with the one action. Do you need four different licences if you have the four different barrels. 22lr, 22wmr, 17MII and 17 hmr.???????

kay 9

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055621235&highlight=sako+quad

Might be of help;)

Glensman

Good choice with the WMR my friend. IMHO it's the superior calibre.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_17HMR_22WMR.htm

yubabill

Probably way off field with this, but you have limited yourself unnecessarily with the question in this thread. What I mean is why don't you consider a 223? You can hunt rabbits with fmj's and foxes with any expanding bullets. Ammo not too expensive etc.

yubabill

Just re-read the thread. Sorry, guys- a bit late with my 2cents above.

Have been using 223 5 years for multi-purpose. you can get fmj for 50c ea in bulk (200 or more) and will kill a vital-shot rabbit farther than you can hit him. Minimal damage to meat.
Found remy umc 55 fmj and hornady 55g ballistic tip shoot to same point of aim, so no need to change zero.
ditto federal 55g fmj/federal 64g psp (ok to 150 yds, then 64 drops more).
you must hit vitals with fmjs to kill humanely, but really no different to 22lr in that respect.
you should be able to order H&R handi-rifle in 223, which should cost E400 or less, but it is an acquired taste (hammer-action, single shot), plenty accurate and very handy, like it says on the tin. Had one in 17hmr, shot 3/8" @100 and never lost opportunity because it was single-shot. Just a cheap option. Probably can get quality 223 s/h for 500 without too many miles on the clock and they don't burn barrels like 22/250 or swift, so can buy with confidence . Your choice.

bunny shooter

yubabill wrote: »

.........You can hunt rabbits with fmj's....

Yes you can BUT you shouldn't !!!! They will not break up on impact as well as HP's or ballistic tips :eek: and may go straight through the rabbit which is never a good thing

spideog7

may go straight through the rabbit which is never a good thing

So will .22WMR V-Max!!

yubabill

bunny shooter wrote: »

Yes you can BUT you shouldn't !!!! They will not break up on impact as well as HP's or ballistic tips :eek: and may go straight through the rabbit which is never a good thing

That's a given. Any responsible shooter makes sure there is a backstop. Naturally, not for built-up areas. If you want rabbits for eating, hps etc will do a lot of damage. 223 fmj for rabbits not for everyone.

ivanthehunter

Look lads its wrong to be killing and not using what you kill when it could very well have been put to good use!! OK

Is it no wonder that there is a shortage of rabbits in most places??

take what you need and leave some for the next day out!!;)


FMJ:rolleyes:

bunny shooter

spideog7 wrote: »

So will .22WMR V-Max!!

Vmax generally disintegrate on impact with bone and when I used them they always did. Try aiming for the head. That way the meat will not be ruined either