Dual Mass Flywheel or Standard Flywheel

joxers25

I've an Avensis 05 2.0 D4d T3x. (uk import)

Needs a new clutch as under any great strain it slips. Usually overtaking.

It has a Dual mass flywheel.

Should i get another Dual Mass Flywheel or a more expensive standard (solid) Flywheel clutch kit?

Mech states most places are replacing the dual mass due to many issues it has caused. I am reluctant as the DMF seems to be a valuable bit of kit - reduces noise - improves clutch performance - can even save on diesel.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks

Joxer.

seamy1

i'm no expert, but my understanding was that the DMF protected the Gearbox from severe damage, vibrations etc? if you change it out for a solid one, does it still offer the same protection?
also, i've read here in Boards somewhere that the DMF in the new diesels are just a consumable.... i.e just like the timing belt.

Just for curiosity, does it mention anything about the DMF in the owners manual????.....again i'm no expert so don't shoot me if i'm wrong

problemchimp

I wonder would the clutch perform well without the DMF, I don't think it would. Extra vibrations could cause other problems. I had mine replaced along with the full clutch kit at 125000kms in city driving on my Kia Carens in December. Cost me about 1500euro all in. not cheap but it sounds like a car now and not a big Hino. good luck.

cian1500ww

A standard flywheel will increase wear on the gearbox afaik. If it hasn't given any bother I'd say stick with the DMF.

keithclancy

joxers25 wrote: »

I've an Avensis 05 2.0 D4d T3x. (uk import)

Needs a new clutch as under any great strain it slips. Usually overtaking.

It has a Dual mass flywheel.

Should i get another Dual Mass Flywheel or a more expensive standard (solid) Flywheel clutch kit?

Mech states most places are replacing the dual mass due to many issues it has caused. I am reluctant as the DMF seems to be a valuable bit of kit - reduces noise - improves clutch performance - can even save on diesel.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks

Joxer.

With a Solid flywheel gear changes will be rough. Also extra engine vibration causing increased wear to gearbox + transmission.

OldmanMondeo

You may not need to change the DMF, They are designed to last a lot longer than a Clutch, usually twice as long (manufacture will not tell you that).

gofaster_s13

For trouble free future motoring fit a solid flywheel, Toyota supply a solid flywheel kit and still offer the same warranty with it, it won't place any extra wear on gear boxes, clutches, engines etc, most people couldnt tell the difference between solid and dual mass when driving, they are fitted to make diesel engines less diesely and are basically just a filter for transmitted noise and vibration.

docmartin

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

You may not need to change the DMF, They are designed to last a lot longer than a Clutch, usually twice as long (manufacture will not tell you that).

x2
we never replace the dmf except it's faulty, in which case we fit a solid one

OldmanMondeo

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

it won't place any extra wear on gear boxes, .

Wrong, A DMF reduced vibration throughout the car including the gearbox. It is recommended by both Car and Clutch/DMF manufactures to replace a DMF with a DMF. I presume you would only use oil to the same standard as recommended by the Manufacture? If so why wouldn't you also follow recommendations on a DMF? A DMF should last 150k -ish, that for most diesels would be 7 years driving.

gofaster_s13

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Wrong, A DMF reduced vibration throughout the car including the gearbox. It is recommended by both Car and Clutch/DMF manufactures to replace a DMF with a DMF. I presume you would only use oil to the same standard as recommended by the Manufacture? If so why wouldn't you also follow recommendations on a DMF? A DMF should last 150k -ish, that for most diesels would be 7 years driving.

So why will manufacturers supply solid flywheels to replace the dual mass with and still offer the same warranty ?? Fitting a solid flywheel will not cause any damage to gearboxes etc they are fitted by manufacturers to take the roughness out of diesel engines to make them more appealing to the motoring public who have the idea that diesels are agricultural and harsh. Modern diesels are not as rough as their predecessors and you will notice very little differance(if any) when a solid flywheel is swapped in. There have been a lot of low mileage DMF's fitted here in the garage with a lot less than 150k and one with less than 5k(which had a solid flywheel fitted instead and is still going strong)

OldmanMondeo

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

So why will manufacturers supply solid flywheels to replace the dual mass with and still offer the same warranty ?? Fitting a solid flywheel will not cause any damage to gearboxes etc they are fitted by manufacturers to take the roughness out of diesel engines to make them more appealing to the motoring public who have the idea that diesels are agricultural and harsh. Modern diesels are not as rough as their predecessors and you will notice very little differance(if any) when a solid flywheel is swapped in. There have been a lot of low mileage DMF's fitted here in the garage with a lot less than 150k and one with less than 5k(which had a solid flywheel fitted instead and is still going strong)

From dealing with one of the Largest Clutch and DMF manufactures I can advise what is Recommended on these. Yes you can put a Solid flywheel in a car, but test have shown that damage can happen from these. Remember people who are paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time studing the design and engineering on gearboxs etc would know better than me.

Personally if I needed to change the DMF on my car another DMF would be put in. the cost of DMF is comming down.

gofaster_s13

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

From dealing with one of the Largest Clutch and DMF manufactures I can advise what is Recommended on these. Yes you can put a Solid flywheel in a car, but test have shown that damage can happen from these. Remember people who are paid a lot of money and spent a lot of time studing the design and engineering on gearboxs etc would know better than me.

Personally if I needed to change the DMF on my car another DMF would be put in. the cost of DMF is comming down.

The clutch manufacturer is not going to recommend anybody to ignore the vehicle manufacturers recommendations due to liability issues but if you talk to the tech guys in Luk, Sachs, Borg-Warner etc they'll tell a different story

mickdw

Firstly, DMFs are a joke reliability wise. They are typically failing before 60k miles. This is not good enough. I know many people who never had to put a clutch in a car in their lives & now suddenly they have a bill for 1400 for this 'consumable' at tiny mileages.

If the manufacturers are happily selling solid flywheel kits & allowing warranty cover to remain in place, I would be pretty happy to go that route. In fairness the DMF cost wouldnt be so bad if it was a true consumable & had to be replaced at clutch change time but the fact that they are randomly failing for no reason is the killer imo.

colm_mcm

get the solid one, thats what all the taxi drivers do on their Avensisiseses

OldmanMondeo

mickdw wrote: »

Firstly, DMFs are a joke reliability wise. They are typically failing before 60k miles.

I would totally disagree with that comment. The company I work for sells LUK clutchs and DMF. The biggest sellers would be the VAG ones, cause the same clutch and DMF can cover a alot of 1.9tdi Adui's, VW, Skoda and Seat. Although we would sell a lot of the the reported milage for replacement is well over 100k and the number is much smaller compared to the number of VAG's out on the roads.

I think people are lead in to a belief that DMF cost to much money to replace and a SMF is better long term. More correct you need special fitting tools for DMF, they can be fitted incorrectly by mechanices, even the good ones. You should only be looking at changeing a DMF once in the normal lifetime of a car, unless there is undue stress and strain put on a car.

But there is 2 sides to every story...

OldmanMondeo

colm_mcm wrote: »

get the solid one, thats what all the taxi drivers do on their Avensisiseses

Taxi drivers also pick their noses and think they own the road.....:D

gofaster_s13

colm_mcm wrote: »

get the solid one, thats what all the taxi drivers do on their Avensisiseses

Avensi ??

cadaliac

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

I would totally disagree with that comment. The company I work for sells LUK clutchs and DMF. The biggest sellers would be the VAG ones, cause the same clutch and DMF can cover a alot of 1.9tdi Adui's, VW, Skoda and Seat. Although we would sell a lot of the the reported milage for replacement is well over 100k and the number is much smaller compared to the number of VAG's out on the roads.

I think people are lead in to a belief that DMF cost to much money to replace and a SMF is better long term. More correct you need special fitting tools for DMF, they can be fitted incorrectly by mechanices, even the good ones. You should only be looking at changeing a DMF once in the normal lifetime of a car, unless there is undue stress and strain put on a car.

But there is 2 sides to every story...

I think you are contradicting yourself here.
You disagree that the DMF's in most cars now days are un-reliable. Yet, you are in the trade and confess to

"Although we would sell a lot of the the reported milage for replacement is well over 100k and the number is much smaller compared to the number of VAG's out on the roads."

To me that says that the DMF's fail a lot. Please don't take this the wrong way, but the do fail, a lot.
They shouldn't. Nor should turbos or gearboxes. While I admit that it is a wearing part, but so is your engine.
Even though the cost of a DMF is coming down, it is an unnecessary cost to a motorist - Not one that can be justified either IMO.

OldmanMondeo

cadaliac wrote: »

I think you are contradicting yourself here.
You disagree that the DMF's in most cars now days are un-reliable. Yet, you are in the trade and confess to

"Although we would sell a lot of the the reported milage for replacement is well over 100k and the number is much smaller compared to the number of VAG's out on the roads."

To me that says that the DMF's fail a lot. Please don't take this the wrong way, but the do fail, a lot.
They shouldn't. Nor should turbos or gearboxes. While I admit that it is a wearing part, but so is your engine.
Even though the cost of a DMF is coming down, it is an unnecessary cost to a motorist - Not one that can be justified either IMO.

Not so much contradict more worded poorly. We would sell a lot of VAG DMF's compared to other makes, i.e. Ford Toyota etc, but then there is a lot of VAG cars out there. eg A VAG 1.9TDi engine is used in various Adui's, VW, Skoda and Seats, so you could have 1 DMF that would fit into easily 20 models. There could be 10,000 plus units of these models on the road, yet we would sell around 100 - 150 DMF for these models. I supose what I am trying to say is the actual failure rate is much lower than people are claiming. You are looking at less than 3% - 4%, that would be without actual figures of cars bought and DMF to fit same that have been sold.(ie guess)

Another way to see it is, you only hear people complaining when something goes wrong. How amny cars are on the road today with big milage still on the same DMf in the car.

brownswiss

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Wrong, A DMF reduced vibration throughout the car including the gearbox. It is recommended by both Car and Clutch/DMF manufactures to replace a DMF with a DMF. I presume you would only use oil to the same standard as recommended by the Manufacture? If so why wouldn't you also follow recommendations on a DMF? A DMF should last 150k -ish, that for most diesels would be 7 years driving.

....

Mine has only lasted about 77000 miles

Nissan doctor

I don't think it matters what anyone's sales figures suggest, anyone in the mechanic/fitting game will be able to tell you that it is a common problem, I couldn't tell you how many I've changed and almost all vag.

IMO the Germans make parts that will last the warranty period and after that they don't care.

And as for all the rubbish about solid flywheels damaging transmissions etc, are we somehow blanking from out brains that DMF's have only been used in recent years and that the gearboxes have worked perfectly fine for many many years without them?
If a solid flywheel causes damage to a transmission then it is a weak transmission and that brings us on to why it would be made to a substandard level?

As someone said above, DMF's are solely for making clutches lighter to engage and reducing some very minor perceived harshness from diesel engines(mostly, they are in some petrol engined cars too).
To say that not refitting one will damage anything is simply scare mongering and arse covering by the manufacturers and suppliers and as someone said in this thread(or perhaps the other one about a passat DMF) that a solid flywheel will reduce torque from 100% down to 30%. I was actually laughing out loud at that. Complete and utter non factual dribble!:rolleyes:

keithclancy

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I don't think it matters what anyone's sales figures suggest, anyone in the mechanic/fitting game will be able to tell you that it is a common problem, I couldn't tell you how many I've changed and almost all vag.

IMO the Germans make parts that will last the warranty period and after that they don't care.

And as for all the rubbish about solid flywheels damaging transmissions etc, are we somehow blanking from out brains that DMF's have only been used in recent years and that the gearboxes have worked perfectly fine for many many years without them?
If a solid flywheel causes damage to a transmission then it is a weak transmission and that brings us on to why it would be made to a substandard level?

As someone said above, DMF's are solely for making clutches lighter to engage and reducing some very minor perceived harshness from diesel engines(mostly, they are in some petrol engined cars too).
To say that not refitting one will damage anything is simply scare mongering and arse covering by the manufacturers and suppliers and as someone said in this thread(or perhaps the other one about a passat DMF) that a solid flywheel will reduce torque from 100% down to 30%. I was actually laughing out loud at that. Complete and utter non factual dribble!:rolleyes:

Cars these days are relatively cheap compared to what you'd pay 10 years ago, no more of this it'll got forever stuff.

Last overengineered car was the Mercedes S Class that was around from 96 - 99 I believe, also came fully loaded , the one from 99 onwards was a pile of junk with Electrical problems all over the shop.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Mercedes-Benz/S-Class/S320-RED/200941195445961/advert?channel=CARS

Mmmmm Yummy... that ones expensive though.

Although if buying one i'd look around England, can be picked up for 500 - 1000 pounds up the north (Leeds/Newcastle) and then import it back to NL and convert it to LPG.

I do too much mileage at the moment .. once thats finished though i'll get rid of my 2.0 Liter Diesel and have one !!

Found a place here that'll do the converstion for 895 euros with a 90 liter tank.

a_n_d_e_r_s

Hi there. Bit late adding this but hopefully it'll help someone.
Myself and a colleague of mine both have pe'gt 308 SW's 1.6HDI. 08 models.
DMF had to be replaced in both cars, mine before 45k miles, something similar with my colleagues. Ironically these DMF's went within a week of each other.
Both went before their respective clutches.
Notably this 1.6HDI is in several manufacturers cars and obviously all are accompanied with the DMF

After a little research I can only conclude;

Yes it's true that they seem to be effective in protecting the related car mechanics as only issues with DMF's really only surfacing/reported, other more serious GB issues or txmission not to the fore, (yet anyway). There's a bit of stuff in these DMF's
But (I.M.V.), it's totally wishful thinking to think these things are reliable. All cars with them report issues and my friend and I have Eu1000+ reciepts to prove that.
Also when they go (in my case anyway), it's a reasonably big job to get them out and when you do the recommendation is to fit clutch also (while it's all out on the table etc... so not cheap at all to fix. So consumables yes but $$$$ Hope this helps.
PS
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/dual-mass-flywheels/
worth a look