Transitional Year

Walker34

Hi,
I done Transitional year in 1975/76....second year it was run and it was a complete waste of time......more to do with the teachers/colleges remuneration than any service to educating the young, in my humble opinion. Freakenomics in practice.

Now I have a son myself and he is being forced to do this and I am interested to hear from Leaving Cert Students/parents of (ie NOT FINANCIALLY INTERESTED PARTIES) whether they think it is a good idea or not. In my time we had plenty of complicated "sounding" subjects like Media Analysis, but most classes deteriorated to a discussion of the Rugby Teams chances in the Connaught Cup for the coming Season. On reflection, I would not have done it......but the fact it was a Boarding school was also a big factor.....I HATED the place with a passion.

I got a form today which challenges me to "Make the Case" as to why my son should be exempted from this extra year. What do ye guys think.....is it of benefit, or as in my case does/did it cause a critical break in the continuity of prime subjects like Maths/English/Economisc ect. from which recovery is never complete.

MaighEoAbu

Hi,

You might want to look at these threads. The students on here give primary evidence of how beneficial or more often unbeneficial TY can be.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=316820


http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055841461

Personally, I didn't do it as everybody I talked to said it was a waste of time. You lose all your knowledge of Junior Cert subjects ( and I know you keep on studying Irish, Maths, English, French ) but most of that isn't as intensive as it was in Junior Cert, and it's not long before you begin forgetting certain things you spent three years learning. Also, subjects taken for Junior Cert, like Geography or History, etc, might not be touched on again until fifth year.

More importantly, TY gets you out of the rhythm of study, and that's where a lot of students will suffer. Studying and doing homework constantly since primary school and one year off, before you know it you can become out of touch.

Finally, with all the cutbacks by the government, especially in transition year sectors, TY is not all it used to be in the last couple of years. School trips are being cut back or abolished and the resources aren't there like they were.

I was offered TY, as I said I didn't take it. My friends who did, and were so excited and happy heading into the year, are now regretting that choice. Boredom, the loss of basic understanding of certain subjects from Junior Cert, cutbacks in TY funds and the mere fact that a lot of what they do is left up to them to decide, are the main factors behind such regret.

Don't be forced into making a decision by the school. He's your child. Don't feel pressured because what you ultimately choose will either have a negative or positive influence on the rest of his school years. Look at the pros and cons, and make the decision together.

Go n-éirí an t-ádh libh!

Crow92

Transition year is all circumstantial, Is your son willing to participate in everything? What age is he? Is he somewhat mature? what is it like in the school?

I personally did transition year and found it to be fantastic, sure i didn't do a whole lot of work, due to my own lazyness to be honest but i took part in all the extra activities and projects going on, took up an instrument, did charity work, got my gaisce ect...ect.., It also gave me a year to mature, i felt 17 was too young to start college.

But there were a few wasters who did nothing and became lazier as a result, if your son is active and the like it could be beneficial for him to do it, if he wants to.

I personally believe anyone who blames transition year on poor performance in 5th and 6th years are just lazy people looking for an excuse.

Fad

It depends on the school.

Some schools have a fantastic TY program, some simply do not.

It also depends on whether your son has any drive to get himself get involved. If he doesnt, the year will be wasted on him. If he does, the year will be incredibly beneficial.

I enjoyed TY, I didnt benefit from it massively academically, but it helped a lot personally. Up until 4th year, I despised the school I was in and almost everything to do with it, 4th year helped me settle in and get to know some more people, helped me realise that not everyone I knew was in fact a cúnt.....

I got to do a bit of sound engineering, I got to work in a studio for a few weeks. I got to work in a biochemistry lab too. Work experience was dead handy when it came to thinking about the future (Sound Engineering is fun and all, but when you're working in a real studio (ie not a huge big glamorous one) you realise it's not as fun as it sounds, and when you're earning fúck all money (I wasnt getting paid, but the sound engineers were getting peanuts) all the passion in the world wont save you. I did however enjoy the lab work, it was stimulating and challenging. As a result, I'm in 1st year science.

gaeilgegrinds1

I did it and teach on it now. I loved it BUT it depends on two things really. Firstly how well run it is in the school. Do they actually do anything? If not it is indeed a waste.
Also, what type of student is your son? I was majorly into music and swimming most mornings before school so did me the world of good, I acheived great things in these fields and did pretty cool work experience too. Depends on what type of learner he is too.

Seloth

The year provides many memories and experiances...as well as letiting the student be there age without tight school restrictions.

I'm 18,Doing my LC and I have to say TY was one of the ebst eyars ever..with 5th and 6th year you become really socaily ied down with study,giving them this year lets them live alittle before hitting the harshness of the really world while also providing found memories and experainces.

Chuchoter

It depends on 2 things, what kind of person your son is and how well the school runs the TY. If your son is very hardworking and academically minded, he will hate it. If he's a dosser, he'll love it. Personally I hate it. I've just wasted an entire year. I would still try and do work experience over the summer/easter holidays though, as that is very worthwhile. The rest of it really serves no purpose other than ruining all your JC work. Find a few people from your sons school who took TY and consult with them.

gaeilgegrinds1

I think whether a doser loves or hates it depends on the work ethic of the year really, I know our students do quite a few exams, their A-Levels and ECDL for e.g. and most do their theory test too so that's hardly great news for a doser. Again, totally depends on the year though.

Walker34

Thanks for the great replies folks,.....much appreciated.
I got to do some good stuff, even if it was back in the mid 70s. I got to read the News on TV (fierce Hi-tech back then), worked in a mental hospital, a really scary assignment at times but it also had its funny moments....got to break a world record, and so on. But I lost continuity with my academic track and never really recovered it until much later in college.

I went to 3rd level and studied Mechanical Engineering and graduated into the teeth of the last recession.....1983. Worked in a Dickensian dump(yer lucky to have a job!) for 5 years then I got to work for a US multinational and really only got back on track at that point.

It was such a positive experience that my life really only got started then. The Americans were/are so positive and progressive.....continuous improvement, 1 year,3 year/5year career development plan, education as a lifelong process.....etc. etc. A lot of pressure, and pay for performance, but all in all, a very positive experience. Getting the right job is EVERYTHING....period.

Walker34

I suppose the fact I was in a boarding school which I hated did not help either.
I really don't believe people are dossers or wasters really, especially at such a young age without some obvious underlying reason. Evolution made us all highly effective competitive survivors, and that innate mechanism has served us amazingly well since we first crawled our of the trees.

After a very enlightening career working for the yanks I'm very hesitant to brand anyone. I like to believe the best about everyone until they prove me wrong conclusively, and then prefer to ask "How do I fix it". Giving up is not an option. My own kids may well make me swallow those words some day, but in the mean time I`ll persevere in my idealism.

I wish you guys who are sitting the Leaving the best of luck....it will be over some day....and thanks again for the replies.

spurious

Comparing a course in its initial stages with what it is 30 years later is not really fair.
People get out of TY what they put in. For some this is very little.
All studies show TY students do better in the LC than those who did not do it.

Walker34

Hi spurious,

"All studies show TY students do better in the LC than those who did not do it."

Interesting comment........can you cite these studies and their results so that I can examine them further, and more importantly who funded them.....or is this an "Everybody Knows" style global dogma statment favoured by certain News Corporations.

You see I worked in Staristical Analysis for a while and am extremley dubious of such statments. There was a joke in the department..."Tell us what you want the numbers to say,...... and we will come up with the right questions to support yer case". Even "Peer reviewed medical research" needs very careful scrutiny for the stats to be even vaguely meaningful.....and then some. Its not the numbers that matter, but the underlying questions asked.

As for the "Ya only get out what ye put in" .....it is another soft global padding statment that appears to say something without meaning anything really......usefull for selling Energy drinks and the like but, little else.
When it come to a valuble resource like my time, I am as ruthless as a cost accountant.....cost/benefit and all. TY in my opinion is a waste of such a valuble resource......now,..... as it was 30 years ago.

Fad

Walker34 wrote: »

Hi spurious,

"All studies show TY students do better in the LC than those who did not do it."

Interesting comment........can you cite these studies and their results so that I can examine them further, and more importantly who funded them.....or is this an "Everybody Knows" style global dogma statment favoured by certain News Corporations.

You see I worked in Staristical Analysis for a while and am extremley dubious of such statments. There was a joke in the department..."Tell us what you want the numbers to say,...... and we will come up with the right questions to support yer case". Even "Peer reviewed medical research" needs very careful scrutiny for the stats to be even vaguely meaningful.....and then some. Its not the numbers that matter, but the underlying questions asked.

As for the "Ya only get out what ye put in" .....it is another soft global padding statment that appears to say something without meaning anything really......usefull for selling Energy drinks and the like but, little else.
When it come to a valuble resource like my time, I am as ruthless as a cost accountant.....cost/benefit and all. TY in my opinion is a waste of such a valuble resource......now,..... as it was 30 years ago.

Spurious is a secondary school teacher, she knows what she's talking about.

dan_d

It very much depends on your son and the type of work the school put into the year. I know my school put so much effort in, and didn't let us stop our academic work either....we had exams at Christmas and summer as usual.

For boys, if they are in any way immature, TY can be very good for them. Especially if he's a bit young for his year.

I understand your attitude to statistics - I'm an engineer, and my feeling is they are used by our media in particular as the ultimate proof to any statement, but most people don't realise they can be manipulated to prove anything. I think your best option here would be to talk to the school and see what they do. Do they cover any of the LC work - I know there are limits to what they can do, but i also know they can use the year to read set works in irish and english, without rushing like in 5th year, and it lightens the load in 5th year. They can also cover the basics for algebra and stuff for maths - again lightens the load a bit, or carry out experiments that might be a bit more time-consuming for the science subjects that they mightn't do in only 2 years.

Personally my TY was around 1999, and in hindsight it was a very maturing experience for me. I've a younger sister who did TY 2 years ago - while she was very resistant to it, she really dug in and enjoyed herself. The school put a lot into it, and she got some great trips and experience in. At the end of the day, you know your son best, but I'd definitely recommend talking to the school in detail. If you look at the links to threads most posters say you get out of it what you put into it...may be a soft statement, but this is out of the mouths of those who have done it very recently.

Walker34

Fair enough Dan,spurious et al, I appreciete your input and comments,....its nironic that one of the few subjects I recall from my TY all those years ago is Media Analysis, and since I have developed a VERY healthy scepticism for same......and the deluge of EXPERTS who are on hand for any subject ye care to mention, particularly on Murdocks (long pause)....products. Maybe TY has its value after all.:-)

Cen92

I would have only just turned 17 doing my leaving if I didn't do transition year and that would have been too young, plus I'd probably be repeating my leaving if I didn't.
You dont really do any relevant work for anything really.
The Work Experience was good, I realised I would hate to work in a lab and better study so I dont end up working in a cold factory for the rest of my life.
You make really good friends.
Teachers respect you more after TY.
Have good fun during the year.

Cons.
You really do no work for the whole year, any homework you get it doesn't really matter if you did it or not. This screwed up my 5th year, I didn't really put much effort in and now have alot to do now.

I would really recommend doing it!

randylonghorn

Walker34 wrote: »

You see I worked in Staristical Analysis for a while and am extremley dubious of such statments. There was a joke in the department..."Tell us what you want the numbers to say,...... and we will come up with the right questions to support yer case".

I wouldn't for a second argue that statistics are open to manipulation, and indeed that they often are manipulated ... it's a fair few years since Mark Twain pointed out that there are three types of lies ... lies, damned lies and statistics! :pac:

But as someone who worked in statistical analysis you will also be familiar with the concept of bias, and I think if you read back through your own posts you will realise that you are displaying a strong bias yourself, presumably based on your own experience of TY in one school (which you admit you detested) 35 years ago in the very early years of the programme. And even at that, you admit that you got something out of it.

Personally, I would agree with previous posters that some schools run a far better programme than others, and would agree with Dan in suggesting that you investigate the programme in your son's school more thoroughly; in particular, it would be very useful to talk to a few past pupils of that particular school. I am also apprehensive, I admit, that the current cutbacks in schools will impact on even the best schools' programmes ... TY will unfortunately be seen as a soft option when money has to be found.

I may as well admit that my own opinion would be that a more integrated 3-year LC programme would be preferable ... that the year immediately after Junior would still be used to introduce students to a wide range of activities and indeed other subjects, but that about half the time would be devoted to starting the LC programme in a calm and unpressurised way, thus leaving it less likely that students will go "off track", as you put it. This would also allow for a smaller percentage of the time in the following two years to be devoted to stuff which wasn't geared solely towards those new gods of ours, "points" ... which might help reduce the pressure, especially in 6th year, but would also allow for the inclusion of activities which would simply be inappropriate with 15 year olds (basic driver's ed., as they do in most US schools, would be one hobbyhorse of my own, but that's a different debate).

I was somewhat surprised by the way to see you say this

As for the "Ya only get out what ye put in" .....it is another soft global padding statment that appears to say something without meaning anything really

While it may be a somewhat general statement, I wouldn't see it as "soft" or "padding". I suspect that when your son is facing his LC you will be quick to tell him that how well he does will depend to a great extent on how well he studies, for example. Or, in other words, that he will only get out what he puts in.


As Cen has pointed out just above, one problem with a student skipping TY is that they are likely to hit third level at 17 or soon after, and while I know some do so and survive, for most students they are simply not ready at this age.

One other point strikes me: nowhere in your posts have I seen you advert to your son's opinion or wishes in this matter. What does he think? Have you asked him, and genuinely listened to the answer? I don't mean to be offensive, but you do come across as a somewhat ... forceful ... personality!

For example, if he skips TY, he will probably end up being incorporated into a group who were a year ahead of him previously. This might work fine, but it can also be very unsettling for a youngster. He may find it difficult to settle in and make new friends. He may end up spending the year watching his current friends doing things / going places he has not been allowed the chance to do or go, and coming to resent that. And that attitude is neither going to help his preparation for his LC, nor indeed his relationship with you.

Walker34

The only reason I referred to my work with statistics was to counter the statment by spurious

"All studies show TY students do better in the LC than those who did not do it."

and damn right I am bias, but the bias is based on the best research of all....Doing TY myself, even if it was 30 years ago(my how time flies).

Anyways its a mute point at this stage because after stating my case against him doing it he hit me with many of the same arguments proffered here.....not least the fact that he would be moving from one pier group to an older one and as a result would feel totally alienated....so he`s in. Cos/benefit isnt always the most appropriate for making such judgemnts.....apologies to all the pencil pearers looking in.

The main value of posting the question in the first place was to instigate a discussion, and in the process to stimulate a brainstorming session......and I am very greatful to ALL of you who participated, you all played a stormer.....literally:-).

This is one of the main values of the internet imo in the first place, and I have used it for this purpose on a number of occasions when face with a particularly intractable problem.
So give yerselves a round of applause and thanks.

Walker34

that should read "moot point" rather than "mute".....darn autocorrect.

DC09

Walker34 wrote: »

Hi,
I done Transitional year in 1975/76....second year it was run and it was a complete waste of time......more to do with the teachers/colleges remuneration than any service to educating the young, in my humble opinion. Freakenomics in practice.

Now I have a son myself and he is being forced to do this and I am interested to hear from Leaving Cert Students/parents of (ie NOT FINANCIALLY INTERESTED PARTIES) whether they think it is a good idea or not. In my time we had plenty of complicated "sounding" subjects like Media Analysis, but most classes deteriorated to a discussion of the Rugby Teams chances in the Connaught Cup for the coming Season. On reflection, I would not have done it......but the fact it was a Boarding school was also a big factor.....I HATED the place with a passion.

I got a form today which challenges me to "Make the Case" as to why my son should be exempted from this extra year. What do ye guys think.....is it of benefit, or as in my case does/did it cause a critical break in the continuity of prime subjects like Maths/English/Economisc ect. from which recovery is never complete.

I did it two years ago.Its a complete waste of time.

It doesnt help with anything, it is good craic but thats about it.

If worst comes to worst, buy 5th year books and have a look at them during TY (youll have no h/w OR school work in TY so you have time)

Im in 6th year now and LC would be easy if i had done that!

David2

Honestly, I think it's a good idea, although it's quite boring.
You grow up a lot during the year, more than you would think. It is necessary to have a mature mind when choosing your subjects to study in LC.