Motoring Forums Suggestions forum request

Tragedy

Who made the decision to make it private?
It was requested by users, supported by users, (apparently) not wanted by Motors Mods, but they got final say on it and how it was set up?

It was set up as a private forum "aimed at serious DIY'ers and people in the trade to seek help with specific problems".

Would it not have been more clearcut and more involving to approve it in principal but ask the users who supported it to agree on a clear charter and purpose for it? And if Motor Mods still had reservations, start it as a hosted>rec forum and give it a chance to live there.

Let's be honest, it's never going to made public now that it's been created nor is the purpose going to get redefined despite what people originally wanted.

Gary ITR

You could have spoken directly to myself about this if you wished. It is mentioned in the forum why it is private at the moment and the Motors Mods have already put a lot of work in to make sure it will be a success even if we didn't want it.

I notice you haven't asked for access and therefore have no clue what is going on in there yet you come running to feedback which is kind of frustrating tbh because we are trying and access is open to anybody that wants it at the moment

The idea behind this forum being private is it gives us a chance to hone it and just basically get it running properly out of the public eye

The above is taken from a thread explaining what the forum is about

The reason it is aimed at ''serious DIY'ers and people in the trade to seek help with specific problems'' is because the main motors forum covers the basics and the general stuff.

-Chris-

The Tech Advice forum is a double-edged sword for anyone using it. It proports to be the place where real, educated, insider advice will be available, but it suffers the same problem that the main forum does in that it's difficult to verify the bona fides of the poster and their opinion.

The Motors Mods resisted it initially (even though it was originally a request by Slidey - a Motors Mod), because we couldn't figure out how to control or vet the posters to ensure that the quality control was high.
If there's no quality control, there's no point, as these topics are just as at home in the main forum.

The fact remains that, while we have some very experienced and knowledgeable posters, there's also a small cadre of people who'd happily have your car blow up, blissfully unaware that the advice they gave you is incorrect.

The ultimate solution would be to have a publicly viewable forum where everyone can post a query, but only certain people could answer (hard to decide who those people are, and a source of constant conflict with those who you refuse but who believe they know what they're talking about), or a pre-moderated forum where anyone can post an answer, but the answer must be approved before it's shown (on a forum as busy as Motors, pre-moderation would be veeeery time consuming).

The interim solution, chosen because you could chase your tail all day exploring the issues above, was to set up a private forum so that we could see how the forum worked on a smaller, controllable scale. We're all aware that it's an imperfect solution, but it's the one we decided on (temporarily).

I'm pretty sure we all believe it has a lot of potential value.


A question for you Tragedy, or anyone else who's interested - how would you have done it?

smashey

Tragedy wrote: »

Let's be honest, it's never going to made public now that it's been created nor is the purpose going to get redefined despite what people originally wanted.

I was involved in setting this up and it was made private following discussions with the motors mods for the very good reasons that they have already mentioned. Regarding it never made being public, that is something we don't yet know although there is precedence for making a private forum public with the smoking forum.

-Chris-

I've had a bit of time to think about this a bit more:

Tragedy wrote: »

Who made the decision to make it private?
It was requested by users, supported by users, (apparently) not wanted by Motors Mods, but they got final say on it and how it was set up?

I've re-read the forum request thread, I don't see any Motors Mod saying they don't want the forum. There are potential "problems" that need discussion, but that's about it.

Tragedy wrote: »

It was set up as a private forum "aimed at serious DIY'ers and people in the trade to seek help with specific problems".

Would it not have been more clearcut and more involving to approve it in principal but ask the users who supported it to agree on a clear charter and purpose for it? And if Motor Mods still had reservations, start it as a hosted>rec forum and give it a chance to live there.

It is approved in principal, and the point of the trial period is for us to iron out the kinks and establish exactly what the charter needs to say through experience.
If users have suggestions for the amendment or improvement, I think any Mod would receive that feedback gratefully.

Tragedy wrote: »

Let's be honest, it's never going to made public now that it's been created nor is the purpose going to get redefined despite what people originally wanted.

There's no point in keeping it private - it's of no benefit to the Motors community if it's kept private.
What exactly did people originally want that's not being catered for? What needs redefining?

A-Trak

-Chris- wrote: »

I don't see any Motors Mod saying they don't want the forum?

2nd post in this thread

Onkle wrote: »

Motors Mods have already put a lot of work in to make sure it will be a success, even if we didn't want it.

-Chris-

Anything in the forum request thread?

Gary ITR

I don't see what the mods wanting or not wanting this forum has to do with anything tbh

-Chris-

Agreed - it's a red herring. If a mod didn't want to mod the forum, they just wouldn't be given the role.

The users wanted it, the users got it, as mods we have to figure out the best way to manage it.

I think we're covering all the bases so far.

Tragedy

Onkle wrote: »

You could have spoken directly to myself about this if you wished.

Why would I speak to you directly? I don't have a problem with you wishing the forum to be X/Y/Z(if you did), I was questioning why the users who wanted the forum weren't involved one bit in the decision - or questioned at all.

It is mentioned in the forum why it is private at the moment and the Motors Mods have already put a lot of work in to make sure it will be a success even if we didn't want it.

In the Access Request sticky, several(I think!) people asked why it was private and just got basically "shut up if you aren't asking for access" replies from you.

yet you come running to feedback which is kind of frustrating tbh because we are trying and access is open to anybody that wants it at the moment

That's awfully defensive, I hardly came running to feedback.
I asked why users weren't involved in the decision of how to set up a forum for them.
I'm not bitching about the Motors Mods or what they wanted the forum to be.

The reason it is aimed at ''serious DIY'ers and people in the trade to seek help with specific problems'' is because the main motors forum covers the basics and the general stuff.

Part of the reason most people were supporting this forum seemed to be that questions/answers/guides got left behind and hidden in the Motors forum, which is why a subfora dealing with issues/problems/guides with less traffic would be better for all.

Again, if users had been involved in the creation of the forum that would have been addressed, instead it seems to have been decided for us?

Chris wrote:

The Tech Advice forum is a double-edged sword for anyone using it. It proports to be the place where real, educated, insider advice will be available, but it suffers the same problem that the main forum does in that it's difficult to verify the bona fides of the poster and their opinion.

Who decided the tech advice forum purports to be the place where real, educated, insider advice will be available? DIY'ers aren't educated or insiders, they're just people who like tinkering with cars and fixing as much as possible themselves.
Also, as you'll know from many many many threads on Motors, insiders give terrible advice and terrible service quite a lot and many of the tech advice threads are people looking for a second opinion after a mechanic gave them advice.

The Motors Mods resisted it initially (even though it was originally a request by Slidey - a Motors Mod), because we couldn't figure out how to control or vet the posters to ensure that the quality control was high.
If there's no quality control, there's no point, as these topics are just as at home in the main forum.

If someone gives terrible advice, there'll be plenty of people replying to that poster saying he's posting crap and to cut it out. It's what happens in Motors forum and other motoring forums(of which there are thousands, that don't have any issues with people giving advice).

Mods are there to moderate the users, not vet the content for it's efficacy, no?

The fact remains that, while we have some very experienced and knowledgeable posters, there's also a small cadre of people who'd happily have your car blow up, blissfully unaware that the advice they gave you is incorrect.

Poster A posts thread about a problem with his car.
Poster B blissfully posts something stupid and dangerous.
Poster C replies explaining how and why that's wrong and what to do instead.
Poster A and B both learn something.

The ultimate solution would be to have a publicly viewable forum where everyone can post a query, but only certain people could answer (hard to decide who those people are, and a source of constant conflict with those who you refuse but who believe they know what they're talking about), or a pre-moderated forum where anyone can post an answer, but the answer must be approved before it's shown (on a forum as busy as Motors, pre-moderation would be veeeery time consuming).

The ultimate solution according to you. Others will disagree. There are thousands of community tech support sites for phones, computers, consoles, software, bikes, cars, whatever you call it.
The vast majority operate with no vetting of either users or content despite the fact you can easily brick phones, break windows, damage computer components, destroy an engine etc etc.
Why is this forum so special that it can't operate the same?

A question for you Tragedy, or anyone else who's interested - how would you have done it?

Public forum, good mods, crack the whip when people deliberately act the maggot.

i.e. the same as any other forum.

I've re-read the forum request thread, I don't see any Motors Mod saying they don't want the forum. There are potential "problems" that need discussion, but that's about it.

Don't have sources, it's just what I was told. Hence the apparently.

Tragedy

I'd just like to re-iterate this isn't an attack on Chris or Onkle, i'm just trying to find out why Motors Mods got to make all the decisions(which is what I gather based on smashey's posts here and on the other thread) on how the forum would be set up and what it's purpose would be without any user intervention.
It's a forum for us, not you after all - you just have to moderate it, and moderation is universal.

-Chris-

Well then the forum you're talking about is different than the forum that was originally requested by Slidey.
Adsbygoogle's suggestion was similar-ish to Slidey's and so it was probably perceived to be the same request.
It's possible that the forum as envisioned by Slidey (and agreed upon by the rest of the mods who then requested the forum from the admins) is different from the forum that you're requesting now.

I don't know which one of you is right.

Again, this is the point of having a test phase - to ensure that we're launching something that the community actually wants while not creating too many headaches from an administration point-of-view.

Tragedy

-Chris- wrote: »

Well then the forum you're talking about is different than the forum that was originally requested by Slidey.

Excuse me?
Slidey didn't request the forum. Ads by google did?

Adsbygoogle's suggestion was similar-ish to Slidey's and so it was probably perceived to be the same request.

I had a look at the thread and Ads By Google didn't suggest implementation, he just requested a Tech Advice forum.
Can you post links to the thread where Slidey requested the forum?
Can you post a link to the post where ads by google requested a forum in the same vein as Slidey?

It's possible that the forum as envisioned by Slidey (and agreed upon by the rest of the mods who then requested the forum from the admins) is different from the forum that you're requesting now.

Why did Slidey, of all the posters in the thread, get to envision the forum? Why weren't other users views taken into account? Why did the Motors Mods get the say on the creation and operation of the forum?

I also don't see Slidey requesting a private forum.
I see

My initial idea before I saw this thread was to have a private forum for mechanics to bounce things off each other.

That implies quite different to what you are saying.

Again, this is the point of having a test phase - to ensure that we're launching something that the community actually wants while not creating too many headaches from an administration point-of-view.

No, this is the point of consulting the people who wanted the forum in the first place if there's an issue in how to set up the forum or the vision of it - they get the forum they want, and then you try make it work from a moderation point of view.
Mods are meant to be here to help and support the running of forums, not decide on them and decide on the content of them surely. Is that not the users job?

I dont suppose an admin could reply to the suggestions thread so people subscribed to it could discuss it here, if they too feel they have an issue? And likewise with the access thread in Motors?

-Chris-

Tragedy wrote: »

Excuse me?
Slidey didn't request the forum. Ads by google did?


I had a look at the thread and Ads By Google didn't suggest implementation, he just requested a Tech Advice forum.
Can you post links to the thread where Slidey requested the forum?
Can you post a link to the post where ads by google requested a forum in the same vein as Slidey?

Here's where Slidey alludes to it:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62199923&postcount=6

Sequence of events:
Slidey proposes a limited-access forum where discussion of technical stuff can take place
Slidey floats this to the other mods who agree with it
Slidey proposes it to the Admins

While this was kicked around in the mods forum, Adsbygoogle suggested what seemed to be a similar thing. It was considered (possibly incorrectly) that it was part of the same conversation.

The implementation is actually half way between what Slidey suggested and what Adsbygoogle suggested.

Tragedy wrote: »

Why did Slidey, of all the posters in the thread, get to envision the forum? Why weren't other users views taken into account? Why did the Motors Mods get the say on the creation and operation of the forum?

He envisioned it because he suggested it first. The end result isn't exactly what he suggested, but this is as a result of Adsbygoogle's thread and some other discussion that went on.

The Motors Mods got a say because they're the volunteers who will be tasked with minding the forum, and if it goes wrong they'll be the ones cleaning it up and taking the flack in the Feedback forum.

Also, we didn't get the say on the creation, we were asked "it's been requested that this forum is created, have you any objections to looking after it? Can you see any issues with it?"

Tragedy wrote: »

No, this is the point of consulting the people who wanted the forum in the first place if there's an issue in how to set up the forum or the vision of it - they get the forum they want, and then you try make it work from a moderation point of view.
Mods are meant to be here to help and support the running of forums, not decide on them and decide on the content of them surely. Is that not the users job?

I actually haven't hung my hat on either Slidey's or Adsbygoogle's suggestions. I'm waiting to see how it works out.

It's not how I envisioned it either (as a user), but if it turns out to be a good resource for the community I won't worry too much about it.

Tragedy wrote: »

I dont suppose an admin could reply to the suggestions thread so people subscribed to it could discuss it here, if they too feel they have an issue? And likewise with the access thread in Motors?

I'd say discussion should be here or in a seperate Motors thread. It's had enough for Onkle spending his free time matching up access requests with the access masks on the forum itself to ensure everyone gets access as quickly as possible, without having to wade through (and respond to) the off-topic conversations that would develop.
The access thread is for requesting access. Debate thread should be separate.

Gary ITR

i'm on mobile here so i'll have to be brief but i will come back later and address other points. the forum was set up on a trial basis to see if it will work, the admin asked our opinion on it and we gave it. After we gave our opinion the admin guys decided to make a private forum and give it a trial. Also if I seem defensive it's because i sat up last night finalising a charter, trying to work on typing up an ethos for the forum and going through access to then find a feedback thread made by somebody who hasn't even seen the forum yet. I may have been cold towards the forum when it was suggested but that hasn't stopped me working hard at it now to make sure it will work properly

John Mason

sorry slightly off topic but i cant see anywhere else to ask the question

will i still be able to ask questions about my car in the normal forum or will i need access to the tech forum?

-Chris-

What I've done is move the post into the Tech forum, and then grant the OP access to the Tech Forum.

I'm not sure if this is the best way. It's still an experiment at the moment.

Gary ITR

irishbird wrote: »

sorry slightly off topic but i cant see anywhere else to ask the question

will i still be able to ask questions about my car in the normal forum or will i need access to the tech forum?

Ask away in the main forum. The main forum is for the general stuff

copacetic

-Chris- wrote: »

What I've done is move the post into the Tech forum, and then grant the OP access to the Tech Forum.

I'm not sure if this is the best way. It's still an experiment at the moment.

Imo people's posts shouldn't be moved to private forums unless they request it, I've not heard of that being done before. If the decision was to make this new forum private, then nothing should be moved to it. People also shouldn't be pointed toward it as the place to ask questions either; or prevented from asking technical questions on the main forum.


Personally I thought the forum sounded like a good idea, making it private is poor decision and the attittude shown in some of the posts about it it very poor also.

-Chris-

Fair point, I've never modded a private forum before. It's a learning curve for me.

By and large I'm letting Onkle do the running cos he has the experience.

RoundyMooney

Why is this private at all?

Seeme people are being slated for mentioning it on the sticky, or mentioning it here; but in any event, anyone poking around the motoring forum will know that there are a myriad of enthusiast fora out there, for specialist marques or otherwise, that offer technical advice as their modus operandi-and the world is still turning. There are quite a few fora here on boards that offer advice, with standard disclaimers in the charter.

That said, people are entitled to have their spake, and here seems to be the place-if it's a work in progress, don't dismiss people, if you wouldn't mind. Their view may well be the one that comes to fruition if the forum is opened up at some stage.

By the way folks, if ye didn't want the administrative headache of it (I don't see how there could be one-the community in Motors is generally a helpful one, and should be self policing to a degree), then no-one was forcing you to take it on.

edit: I mean that not in a bugger off and let someone else do it sense-rather that there is always someone else willing to help with drafting stickies and the like-going it alone modwise is a pain in the hole tbh.

Slidey

I'm heading to bed so gonna make this brief.

I threw out an idea in the motor mods forum for a forum on the 8th

Just pondering
I was thinking of getting a hosted forum up and running for people in the trade to seek answers without suffering from the max power mechanics that inhabit motors at times.

A place where knowledgeable people could ask specific questions and get answers from those in the know.

Sometimes there is questions asked that are quite detailed and get missed by those who might be able to answer as it drops off the front page due to the high volume of traffic in there.

Was thinking of calling it OBD, On Board(s) Diagnostics

Opinions?

Would it work or just die a death?

On the 20th ABG started his thread in the forums forum.

It is my own personal opinion that the private aspect of the one that is now set up is not going to work. Then again, I don't have to mod it.

The handy thing about having it private is that if some moron keeps giving bad advice you may just take away his/her access.

Maybe just move the forum to a sub-forum of DIY?

RoundyMooney

Slidey wrote: »

The handy thing about having it private is that if some moron keeps giving bad advice you may just take away his/her access.

Maybe just move the forum to a sub-forum of DIY?

That can be done anyway

And yep, I think DIY might be an option, if it's purely a driveway mechanic type of dealio-it may encompass more than that though.

Slidey

RoundyMooney wrote: »

That can be done anyway

Not really, you cannot perma ban someone from a public forum because they don't give good advice.

You having modded before know exactly how that would end

RoundyMooney

I didn't say permaban-there are other options. You as a mod would know that permament exclusion is a last resort-which is what privacy amounts to-for many who wouldn't find the forum in the first place anyway, or couldn't be arsed jumping through hoops.

To close it up for fear of a spanner monkey without a clue is somewhat extreme-which was and is my point. On modding-look at Electrical. Commonsense posters and good people-with any suspect advice being immediately corrected. And that was the case from day one-with little intervention from me, or latterly Stoner.

There are a couple of electrical advisory fora out there-but people tend to shy away from it-which is a bit like the way most modern cars are these days; what with the need for diag equipment, oil drain pump in some cases, and a torx set just to get the bloody cover off. However, there are, as I've said-the world of enthusiast fora on the web, often marque specific, that operate just fine and dandy.

And no one has died, and no one has been brought before the wig, to my knowledge anyway. So, if you're in favour of an open forum-I don't think you have anything to fear.

peasant

My 2c:

There is big upheaval now because this forum is private. Private= secret = interesting. So now the world and their grandmother wants access in case they're missing something juicy ...and because no one likes to be excluded from something.

Fact is, on motors there are two grades of mechanically minded posters. One grade glazes over at the 20th thread of "There is water in my footwell" or the 200th thread of "which tyre". The other grade wouldn't know what to do with "What is the correct torque for the head screws on a 1.6 vtec ?"

It's the second grade of posters that this forum was originally meant for. Simply because the general motors forum is so busy that their specialist questions get no immediate answers and by the end of the day their thread is on page four, never to be seen again and never to get an answer at all.

The reason it was supposed to be private is that this would limit traffic to really interested parties and such ensure a proper discussion of these highly technical matters without dilution with general chitchat and "what tyre" threads.

IMO this still is a fair request and a forum that has a future and a reason to be.

For now, I propose that anyone who wants access can have access, they can make up their mind if this forum is for them or not and after a few months when the dust has settled someone will have a trawl through the access list and quietly remove those who have never posted anyway.

Slidey

Good post P.

Put things better than I managed too. Paragraph 3 is the bit that I wanted but I am just unsure wether it will work out in the current set up

A few weeks will tell the tale though

copacetic

Slidey wrote: »

Not really, you cannot perma ban someone from a public forum because they don't give good advice.

You having modded before know exactly how that would end

You can't do it from a 'semi-private' forum either. i.e this forum was setup in response to a public forum request, but made private. Very different from most private forums. A private forum that is actually 'private' i.e invite only, strict rules, no reporting posts from it etc is a very different forum from one that is called private but everyone is welcome.

This appears to be just a public forum hidden from view. If the mods perma ban someone for not giving good advice there will likely be the same level of appeals/feedback/helpdesk threads. Why wouldn't there be when 90% of the users of the forum wouldn't be familiar with private forum 'rules'

This forum and the new R&R 'private' forum seem to be a new forum type and from what I can see no-one has properly thought them through.

I'd agree with copacetic.. I can see why it was made private but granting access to everyone takes away the advantages of private.
If some of the "max power mechanics" start giving bad advice (since they've already got access), is that a big enough reason to warrent a ban? How do you stop their bad advice?


Other than that, I'm happy with it being set up.. At the time, I was driving a 1990 318is and really wanted a forum for tech help. Now though, I'm not driving for a while so you'll not see me there unfortunately..