Women having sex with underage boys - attitudes

Dudess

A current story in the news regarding a woman in her 30s who had sex approximately 200 times with a 12-year-old boy has made it to After Hours, and some of the attitudes (not the tongue-in-cheek comments but the ones sans the slightest trace of irony) are fairly grim to say the least, in my opinion: "Oh the poor lad - she's not hot" actually being meant seriously (because it would be ok for this young kid to be used as a sexual plaything by an attractive woman of that age), "do it to my daughter and I'll kill ya, but my son... little stud" etc.

I'm not going to pretend some boys e.g. in their early teens wouldn't enjoy sex with an attractive, experienced, much older female, but not all would, and some have been traumatised by it. However the macho attitude prevalent of "that's what young lads dream of" undermines their experience and hardly helps if they want it to be taken seriously. Also, while the boy might enjoy it at the time, there's the possibility of it messing him up later - of course this might merely be societally/culturally derived, but if it makes him feel like ****, it makes him feel like ****... but he's encouraged to treat it like a badge of honour.
Then there is the notion that a teenage girl wouldn't want to have sex with a much older man, and such a man deserves to have his balls cut off with a rusty blade, whereas it might be 100% consensual.

There's just so much speaking for other males too - "I would have loved it at 13, therefore all boys would have". I know a bunch of lads who were molested by a friend of their mothers' when they were teenagers, and she's a "milfy" woman now, this was 10-12 years ago, so she was no doubt exceptionally attractive back then. Some of those young men are really messed up by that experience now - one of them has difficulty relating to women.

A comment someone wrote re the latest story (on the newspaper's website):

This is a complete joke, 9 years for what should be a pretty petty offence is far more disgusting than than the so called crime. This country and it's completely repressed sexuality makes me ashamed to be English sometimes. Most lads of that age dream of this kind of thing happening, though not necessarily with someone that looks like that obviously !

Keano

Great post Dudess. Unforunately, you are right in what you say. Majority of people seem to think a young guy making out with an older lady is a legend where as if its a girl with an older man the guy then the guy is a complete sicko, imo both adults are sickos.

Jumpy

Can we agree that no one posts any South Park "Nice" links.

This is a very sensible discussion.

Jako8

There's no two ways about it, the world is backward.

Otis Driftwood

Pedophilia is pedophilia.

IMO If it was a 12 year old girl this woman was having sex with then the vast majority of peoples attitudes would be a helluva lot different but because its a male thats involved alot of people think its great.(or at least they say its great)

At that age 99% of kids,male and female are not ready for a sexual relationship.Sure,physically they may be but sex is a hugely psychological thing and the ramifications in the long term will in alot of cases be detrimental to the individual involved.

I havnt really followed the case (did she get 9 years?) so cant comment on it specifically.

As for the responses in AH,are you really surprised?Id say when the thread was posted in the first place people were blistering their fingers typing as fast as they could to get the first "funny" comment posted.

Sigh.

force majeure

The whole sex thing can get out off control, between what we see on Tv and in the papers people are starting to think sod it any way... one thing I like to know is if its always being like this.

DazMarz

Any person who engages in sexual activity with someone well below the age of consent deserves a heavy custodial sentence, I'm sorry if that sounds extreme. But any underage child who is abused and raped (statutory rape is still rape!) by an older person is a victim, no bones about it...

I'm still concerned about this: I know of a guy who is 19 (nearly 20) who is dating a girl of 16 (17 in two months).... Now, lads, is this in any way wrong? I don't honestly know how to feel about it. You see, the age difference is not THAT extreme, but does that make any difference??? I am genuinely torn over this....

Boston

People talk a lot of crap about what they would have loved had they blah blah. When I was 14~15 one of the lads in my class had sex with an older woman. She'd convinced him he'd be jailed for prostitution if he ever told anyone. Nice introduction to sexual relations. I've met plenty of people who have started having sex with older people really young and without fail none were emotionally ready for what happen. Scares left in all cases.

The question I'd as is what if it was a 13 year old male with a 36 year old man? No so cool anymore.

PeakOutput

DazMarz wrote: »

Any person who engages in sexual activity with someone well below the age of consent deserves a heavy custodial sentence, I'm sorry if that sounds extreme. But any underage child who is abused and raped (statutory rape is still rape!) by an older person is a victim, no bones about it...

the 30 yr old with 12 yr old is clearly just paedophilia dosnt matter which sexes are involved

I'm still concerned about this: I know of a guy who is 19 (nearly 20) who is dating a girl of 16 (17 in two months).... Now, lads, is this in any way wrong? I don't honestly know how to feel about it. You see, the age difference is not THAT extreme, but does that make any difference??? I am genuinely torn over this....

i wouldnt do it if i was 19 but i dont think its wrong really a little wierd i think ages of consent should be dropped to 14 anyway as long as the older person is no older than 2 years older and 16 as the general age of consent

Angus Og

It's wrong. People should always think of the underage before anything else. Whether it's a man or a woman, they're still having the same negative effect on the underage.

Honestly, how many people are actually satisfied by sex with someone who doesn't know better? It's not really any different than putting a drug in someone's drink.

humberklog

Dudess...that's a rant. It's a quality topic to bring up here for reasoned, rational, informed discussion but you've really loaded the barrells and aimed it squarely between the eyes of anyone tempted to disagree with this viewpoint of yours.


I have to post an edit in here to say: Dudess there a fewer poster on boards that I respect more than yourself, but this is (while being a brilliant topic) is worded sooooo lopsidedly. This is no more than something worthy of AH in the way it's adressed and yet it is a gem of a topic.

Boston

humberklog wrote: »

Dudess...that's a rant. It's a quality topic to bring up here for reasoned, rational, informed discussion but you've really loaded the barrells and aimed it squarely between the eyes of anyone tempted to disagree with this viewpoint of yours.

So? There is no onus on the topic started to be unbiased.

humberklog

Boston wrote: »

So? There is no onus on the topic started to be unbiased.

It's cutting its nose off to spite its face. So much more difficult to come in with an opposing view when the dice has been so heavily loaded against holding one.

Angus Og

humberklog, I'm interested. What would your view be? I'm asking for the sake of argument, not to cause an argument.

Boston

humberklog wrote: »

It's cutting its nose off to spite its face. So much more difficult to come in with an opposing view when the dice has been so heavily loaded against holding one.

Well since we're starting from the position of Its illegal and makes you a paedophile, it's hard to defend nei?

humberklog

Boston wrote: »

Well since we're starting from the position of Its illegal and makes you a paedophile, it's hard to defend nei?

But it's not even startring off with that. There's no mention of the legalities of the situation in Dudess's post.

humberklog

Angus Og wrote: »

humberklog, I'm interested. What would your view be? I'm asking for the sake of argument, not to cause an argument.

I'll hold back for the moment.

Boston

Dudess wrote: »

A current story in the news regarding a woman in her 30s who had sex approximately 200 times with a 12-year-old boy has made it to After Hours,

One would think that the legality of such acts didn't have to be spelled out.

Nevyn

Pederast rather then pedophile :P

Grooming children to have sex with them is wrong.
Taking advantage of sexually mature but unexperienced teens is also wrong.

Do I think it is possible for a 16 year old to consent to having sex? I think that depends on the 16 year old there is no one size fits all.

Do I think that it is possible for a 12 year old to consdent to having sex? No.

humberklog

Boston wrote: »

One would think that the legality of such acts didn't have to be spelled out.

But hardly to be assumed that it's the starting point for the discussion from taking Dudess's post?

Boston

Ok, lets ignore the massive white elephant in the room. Take it from there.

Angus Og

humberklog wrote: »

I'll hold back for the moment.

Feel free to.

I'm really interested, and proper argument is based on well thought out words.

Giselle

Angus Og wrote: »

It's wrong. People should always think of the underage before anything else. Whether it's a man or a woman, they're still having the same negative effect on the underage.

Honestly, how many people are actually satisfied by sex with someone who doesn't know better? It's not really any different than putting a drug in someone's drink.

Rape is a crime of violence and power using sex as the weapon. I'd be surprised if the rape of an underage child is any different.

So the sexual satisfaction comes from the defiling of the victim, rather than fulfilling sex as most people would think of it.

Angus Og

Yeah, that's the way I see it.

It's a strange case. I guess people automatically think of men as being more dominant, and so more likely to commit crimes like this. A crime where someone is negatively influenced because they don't know better.

Dudess

humberklog wrote: »

Dudess...that's a rant.

Just an opinion.

Dudess there a fewer poster on boards that I respect more than yourself

Thank yuh.

Sorry if I appear biased - I tried to make it balanced with the acknowledgement that some young guys would enjoy it. It's just... there's a very prevalent view that all of them would, which I don't think is the case.
I also mentioned that some teenage girls WOULD enjoy it.

Not trying to force an opinion at all - it's an invitation for all views. If some people have an opposing stance, please post it. Honest opinions would be cool.

humberklog

Ok but in the charter it says "This forum is for the discussion of any topic from a male point of view". There wasn't even a question in your post...as in "what's your opinion?" or "how do these remarks in a slighly nutty forum such as AH reflect the views of men in a more 'normal' forum?".

I didn't see any invitation for contrasting views.

Dudess

I was going to put that there, but I didn't think it was required. Of course I meant "opinions?"

Paulegend

nice nice

humberklog

Well considering that I took that quote from the charter under the heading "Keeping on topic" I think I'd best leave it there. I just wanted a question mark somewhere...anywhere!:pac:

Dudess

DazMarz wrote: »

I'm still concerned about this: I know of a guy who is 19 (nearly 20) who is dating a girl of 16 (17 in two months).... Now, lads, is this in any way wrong? I don't honestly know how to feel about it. You see, the age difference is not THAT extreme, but does that make any difference??? I am genuinely torn over this....

I think a 16-year-old can know what they want sexually. A 12-year-old, perhaps - but I still don't believe that woman behaved appropriately.
Personally, I was 13 when I started to have those feelings about males, but I certainly wasn't willing to actually go ahead and do it.

Sid_Justice

Ethically speaking I find it very difficult to define what statutory rape should be. it's very difficult to imagine a situation between a 12 year old and an adult (whether they're 18 or 30) were the sexual relationship is consensual but the child is not being exploited in some fashion.

It's much easier, as Thaedyal implies, to imagine a fair and consensual relationship between a 16 year old and an adult.

As a society, we aim to protect children (especially those younger than 16) from each other, themselves and adults. Thus, children that commit crimes at age 12 face completely different criminal proceedings than adults.

If you were a reasonable adult and you wanted to take a group of 12 year olds on a camping trip, you'd probably seek the written consent of their parents/guardians. Thus, shouldn't a reasonable adult, at the very least, seek the consent of the parents he/she wishes to have sex with?

Personally speaking, when I was 12 (is that around confirmation time?) I don't think I would have been at all prepared for sex with an adult, I'd imagine an amount of grooming would have to take place. But at 14, while I may still have been hugely emotionally immature, I think I would have been a much easier target for a woman who wanted to have sex with a teenager.

Dudess

force majeure wrote: »

one thing I like to know is if its always being like this.

I'd believe it has. There was a time, not so terribly long ago, when boys and girls were men and women.

Nevyn

Sid_Justice wrote: »

As a society, we aim to protect children (especially those younger than 16) from each other, themselves and adults. Thus, children that commit crimes at age 12 face completely different criminal proceedings than adults.

I don't think we do, if we did we would be not keeping them as ignorant about sex, sexuality, STD and Consent.

Angus Og

I was eleven when I received sex edu. in school. Wasn't that much, but it was a start. I guess the schools system really is collapsing if kids aren't being told about this stuff now.

And my school was a Catholic National school, so what's the excuse for ignorance now?

FracturedBeat

An adult had sex with a child.

Sounds very simple when you remove the gender issue. If Justice is blind, why does she care so much about gender?

Simple answer, she doesn't and people do. The proof is in the law of the land, the reaction of the common person to the sinister details and the sentences handed out by judges daily.

There is also the simple reason that, i have noticed, blokes have a much more difficult time dealing with the issue of rape ( in theory, not in practicality ) than women do. I think women manage to be a bit more open about these things and will seek council and emotional support from friends ( both male and female ) while rape in a man's case (by a woman) is not such a clear cut issue so i think often times the victim themselves is unsure of how they would even describe what happened. Even in one of the posts above, rape was called a "violent" act...this seems to imply that being coerced into sex through non violent means could never be rape.

I disagree, and strongly.

Rape is more than the words "yes" or "no". Rape is more than one person physically overpowering another. Rape is an emotional thing.

Over the course of my life two male friends have come to me with scarily similar stories. Both happy in relationships with no reason to stray had been put in positions by females they knew where they were forced to have sex with them. One was told if he didn't do the deed as it were, the female in question would tell everyone she knew that he had raped her.

These "women" ( I hate to refer to them as that, but what do i call them? ) could never physically over power these guys, but they beat them down over time, mentally and emotionally until they got what they wanted.

Is this not rape? Do these males not feel as victimised and as sullied as any female who has suffered rape?

As such, we expect the law to be able to somehow deal with situations that may exist solely in an emotional context, with no physical or trace evidence, no bruising, no blood toxicology reports to help the victim get there justice. Would it even be a stretch to assume that people feel a woman could never rape a man? Not for me, I've heard that line trotted out by several women in the past.

Man as a victim of rape is a shapeless, shiftless spirit... an undefined notion that no one has really bothered to seek clarity too...I'm not surprised people act in this way, with an attempt at seeking humour or making light of the situation.

Apparently even when that man is a boy.

Nevyn

I think that we still have a society which is skewed due the greater possible phyiscal damage which can happen to a 12 year old female who gets pregnant then a 12 year old male who gets someone pregnant.

Emme

An adult having sex with a minor is a crime regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

Two 16 year olds having a consensual relationship is a different matter.

L31mr0d

I'd actually be interested in seeing a poll of how many men fantasized about older women around them (teachers, dentists, doctors...etc) when they where young teenagers.

I believe the problem with this attitude is that most boys do have their first feelings of sexual attraction to the full bodied foreign women around them daily, so when they hear about a boy actually getting to have sex with an older woman they imagine it is like their fantasies as an early teenager coming true and view it as a good thing.

The problem though, is that these where fantasies, and inventions in our minds that played out perfectly. The majority of men never got to actually experience the cold reality of such a situation, which would not of met those dreams, and would have an equally traumatizing effect on a young boy as it would on a young girl.

davy7

of course young men fantasize about just about everything but 12yo is just to young to be with a mature women. 15-16 is a different matter as there is a reasonable level of sexual maturity by then.

personally think a 12yo would be scarred and the adult has got some serious problems!

very interesting debate!!

WindSock

I am sure young girls have fantasies about older men too though. In fact I would imagine many pre-pubescent children fantasise about older people more than they do children their own age or younger. Even the music industry is aware of this and exploits it. That doesn't mean that it should be seen as a 'green light' for an teen/adult to enter into a relationship with a child though. Regretting a sexual relationship between two consenting adults is one thing...

CDfm

I am an adult with teenage kids a girl and a boy.

Anyway - if it had been either of them i would imagine the extra danger for a girl is pregnancy.

Neither would have been mature enough or have been able to give informed consent just as Thaed says.

Jail is appropriate - yes of course, its child abuse.