Felt AR4 Vs AR5 ???

TheSteveMeister

Hi everyone,

I'm new to posting messages on this site - although I have been reading posts and opinions here for longer than I can recall. Always got some good tips from the likes of 'Lumen', 'DirkVoodoo', 'Blorg' & 'TinyExplosions' etc. which always helped.

Here's my dilemma..... I used to be huge into bikes (Had a Colnago years back (kind of like the CLX 2 today) with Mavic wheels, 105 group sets, etc. doing 200K runs, and practically brought the bike to bed with me - I'm sure you know what I mean.

Anyway, I've been away from the bike scene for ages now (10+ years) and I'm itching to get back. I've researched and researched for months (with the huge help of reading posts from here) and am stuck between the Felt AR4 and AR5. I know the frames are the same, one has Ultegra V 105's and slightly different wheels - the big Q is: is the AR4 'really' worth the extra money and pushing to around 3K or is the AR5 good enough?

I've heard loads of different opinions on Ultegra V 105's (never mind the Dura Ace) but for someone who's looking to get back into it (semi seriously) and will mainly only be using it at the weekend - what way do I go?

Sorry for the long post - just thought I should explain myself a bit. Could really do with some good advice here from the people who know their bikes.

Thanks,
Stephen.

abcdggs

As a relative ignoramus when it comes to bikes, i'd be interested to hear why you want to spend so much and then only get a 105 group... It seems like a lot to me.

After some ninja googling it seems like the ar4 wheels arent great...

levitronix

Why not get a felt F4 for almost 700 euro less , you get a 0.5kg lighter bike and same group stiffer frame .. the AR seem to be more aimed at people who'd use them for multi sport triathlons and the like .. but i do love the flat top tube of the AR seen them in wheelworx:rolleyes:

TheSteveMeister

Thanks for the advice guys. Having ridden the F4, AR4 & AR5 (not to mention the Trek Madone 4.5 and the Z25) - the F4 (although fairly similar in looks to the AR5 and also the same weight to the AR4) doesn't really feel as smooth a ride to me. The handling of the AR's is phenomenal, having taken it for a good spin around the grounds outside the shop and the aerodynamics seem to iron out some of the turbulence and bumps. The F4 is also more expensive than the AR5. :eek:

The other thing I've done my homework on is the group sets. I've researched the real differences between 105 V Ultegra, Ultegra V DA, etc. and from the comments on many results Googled I can only see - (1) there's only a very slight weight gain [230g or 7.0 ounces to be exact] between Ultegra & 105's with the crankset contributing the most to the weight gain and (2) the shifting is slightly smoother with Ultegra when under duress - sprinting, climbing, attacking, etc. and mainly relates to fractions of a second in power-transfer when in competition. There are no clear statistics to support that one will outperform the other, or that one will last any longer either. Depending on what you read - the general consensus seems to be that 105's are plenty good for the majority of non-professionals and is more than equipped to handle anything you can throw at it. After that, it's simply down to aesthetics and whether you think spending a lot more money on Ultegra can really be justified by performance and what you get in return. Unless I'm racing pro. I can't see why Ultegra is worth giving my wallet a heart attack - but if you have other info, please let me know.

abcdggs

Have you considered campy or SRAM? Don't mean to compicate things, but in my opinion they look a lot better than any shimano group. Just wondering if you had considered them what put you off

TheSteveMeister

abcdggs wrote: »

i'd be interested to hear why you want to spend so much and then only get a 105 group... It seems like a lot to me.

Hi abcdggs - I suppose the price hike is due to beginning to find a bike that is fully Carbon. I've had a look at the Orion - God: even the Strada and Torino (which are both good value for full carbon) but the bike needs to talk back to you too I think. i.e. No point buying a full carbon Torino with 105's for €1400 if it's just not the look or the bike you'd be really happy with. I suppose it boils down to personal taste and I like some of the new Felt's - but when you're looking at a full carbon frame - it's nigh on impossible to get a full bike for anything below €2K - and that's at entry level too.

Hope that answers your query? Please see my point above regarding the 105's. From what I've read - I can't figure out why everyone thinks the Ultegra's are the Holy Grail and the 105's shouldn't be sniffed at? Here's hoping I get a few more replies to throw a couple of different concepts at the idea.

Thanks.

TheSteveMeister

abcdggs wrote: »

Have you considered campy or SRAM? Don't mean to compicate things, but in my opinion they look a lot better than any shimano group. Just wondering if you had considered them what put you off

Simply......I've always been a Shimano man. I know SRAM/Campagnolo etc. set's have come a long way - so without writing a Bible here as to the reasons why I would always stick with Shimano, let's just say I'm old fashioned. [I did check out SRAM actually, but even the guys in Wheelworx, Cyclelogical & Cycle Ways all said to stick with Shimano.]

Lumen

TheSteveMeister wrote: »

Thanks for the advice guys. Having ridden the F4, AR4 & AR5 (not to mention the Trek Madone 4.5 and the Z25) - the F4 (although fairly similar in looks to the AR5 and also the same weight to the AR4) doesn't really feel as smooth a ride to me. The handling of the AR's is phenomenal, having taken it for a good spin around the grounds outside the shop and the aerodynamics seem to iron out some of the turbulence and bumps.

You absolutely cannot feel the aerodynamics of a frame, except perhaps in a negative way. A slightly aero frame like the Felt AR series will not make you measurably faster, we're talking tiny fractions of one kph. Still, if the AR series felt nicer to ride, then that's worth something.

€3k is a big chunk of change, and there is huge choice at that level.

The current issue of Cycling Plus has a 50-bike group test, and while I don't particularly rate journalistic reviews of bikes, it's a good way to get opinions of a large number of bikes.

CP's top choices of those 50 were:

Felt F3 (£2500, SRAM Red)
Bianchi Infinito (2500, Athena)
Cannondale Six (£1800, 105) << winner
Scott CR1 Pro (£2500, Ultegra)
Storck Scenario 1.1 (£2500, Athena)

They say about the AR4 "all our testers without fail plumped for the more traditional F3 over the AR4".

Regarding Campy/Shimano/SRAM, I've used all three at different levels and they're all good. My current best bike has SRAM and I love it.

Lumen

TheSteveMeister wrote: »

when you're looking at a full carbon frame - it's nigh on impossible to get a full bike for anything below €2K - and that's at entry level too.

It's very easy to get a full carbon bike for under €2k, with plenty left for upgrades.

levitronix

Any way if you do get the AR its a real head turner , hope it goes well for you, where are you going to buy if from ?

levitronix

TheSteveMeister wrote: »

Thanks for the advice guys. Having ridden the F4, AR4 & AR5 (not to mention the Trek Madone 4.5 and the Z25) - the F4 (although fairly similar in looks to the AR5 and also the same weight to the AR4) doesn't really feel as smooth a ride to me. The handling of the AR's is phenomenal, having taken it for a good spin around the grounds outside the shop and the aerodynamics seem to iron out some of the turbulence and bumps. The F4 is also more expensive than the AR5. :eek:


They must of waked up the prices this year .. cos the 2010 colours F4 is 2250 euro on wiggle and the F3 2009 colours with sram is 2100 euro on wiggle, euro cycles are same kinda prices

TheSteveMeister

Lumen wrote: »

It's very easy to get a full carbon bike for under €2k, with plenty left for upgrades.

Sorry, I should ahve said 'to geta full carbon bike "I like" for under €2k'.

Yeah I could easily go into Cyclelogical and grab the Merlin full carbon frame for €500, add an Ultegra set, Mavic wheels etc. and have a great bike with a "lifetime warranty" - but have you seen the Merlin? Call it what you will, but I wouldn't ride that for free.

So then I looked at the Ridley Orion (€1,200 for the frame alone or €2,000 for the complete bike) but that's still 2K. Then I looked at the CB Strada and Torino (both full carbon, one with Tiagra, one with 105's, both under €1,500) but I don't like the look of either.

I don't know of that many other bikes that are full carbon for under 2K, but seen's as though others are talking about the F series Felt's - I'll take a look at those before making any decision. Thanks for the posts.

TheSteveMeister

[QUOTE=levitronix;64684555
They must of waked up the prices this year .. cos the 2010 colours F4 is 2250 euro on wiggle and the F3 2009 colours with sram is 2100 euro on wiggle, euro cycles are same kinda prices[/QUOTE]

I can get the AR5 for €2,099.

levitronix

Some price go for it .. i ride a felt F5 with ultegra and ksyrium elites i love it .. thats a great price .. we ll wana see some nice pics posted when you get your hands on her

DirkVoodoo

Hey Steve,

I think you are spoiled for choice really, either the F4 or AR5 will be fantastic bikes and whichever one you purchase will give you many happy kilometres of riding.

If it were me, I would go for the AR over the F series on looks alone.

You are right, there is little difference between 105 and Ultegra and when it comes to buying a bike I would really choose between frame and fit rather than groupsets or wheels, at least when it is a marginal difference between different models of the same brand. If you were choosing between Shimano and SRAM then obviously you would have to take shifter mechanism into account, but seeing as 105 and Ultegra have the same action, the choice becomes somewhat moot.

I really love the AR, when I was last in Joe Dalys they were offering to order one but I resisted. Head over heart.

blorg

Ultegra is not majorly different from 105, just a bit lighter. Might be a different case though if it was new (6700) Ultegra vs old (5600) 105, new Ultegra is very nice. Presuming "old" 6600 Ultegra or SL the typical price difference between the groups at retail is _well_ under €100, so if buying new I would always go up to Ultegra. If the difference was a lot I would wonder why and maybe go for the 105 bike but I would probably end up annoyed all the same not to have the Ultegra! For no good reason admittedly.

TheSteveMeister

Cheers people - last two opinions have really helped a lot - knew I'd get sound advice from you guys. Really like the F4 too, but inclined to agree that the AR5 just looks sweet.

I can't really see where the big difference in price (AR4 & AR5) is coming from. As was previously said, the difference in cost between Ultegra & 105's is between €120 - €150 at a push. Wondering why I can't get the AR5 and just give the guys an extra €150 to take off the 105's and upgrade to the Ultegra's? Probably wouldn't let me do something like that I suppose?

I'll give the shop a shout tomorrow and see what they say - will let you guys know.

Thanks again.

DirkVoodoo

You can't really break it down to price difference between components. Any kind of discounting or sales aside, the recommended prices will be set by the distributor or Felt.

I guess it's just price sensitivity, which isn't really unique to bikes. After all the price difference between a hamburger and a cheeseburger is often a lot more than the cost of a single slice of cheese

dexty

I think that ar4 your looking at has the new Ultegra 6700 with the buried cables. I rode it too and thought it nice and really liked the idea of the cables out of the way. So while I would of bought the old ultegra over the 105, I would buy the new 6700 over the 105 based on the cables gone alone. How did u find the 4.5 compared to the ar4? If anything I thought the ar4 was great for putting your foot down but it felt a bit small and 'toyish' under me. Also I could still get bumps in the road that I thought the carbon frame would absorb better over my current aluminum

TheSteveMeister

Well,

Did a mega-amount of research since the last post I even stumbled upon Shimano tester reports on some forum (must find that link again and will post) and I practically feel like I could build my own groupset with the info I've gained . The general consensus really does appear to be - if you've got a more finely tuned responsive system than you do cash - Ultegra is the way to go. The weight difference is 'teeny-tiny' and whilst changing gear is slightly 'crisper' it's only noticeable during extreme exersion (someone else's words not mine).

Everyone's opinions/reviews etc I read, all said - 105's a plenty good for anyone, unless they are in the elite bracket and race professionally - in which case they usually bypass Ultegra completely and head straight for Dura Ace. 99% (maybe 98%) of opinions also said that you're way better off upgrading wheels rather than 105's to Ultegra as nothing will slow you down more than rotating mass!

I tried several bike stores (big and small) and even emailed a few huge places in the UK (6 to be exact) - all concurred and said - invest in wheels more so than anything else (providing you have a decent frame and groupset of course) - the difference between new Ultegra's and 105's is so small, it's not really worth mentioning unless you're obsessed or an avid fan. (Again, not my words.)

Attached is a (decent) photo of the beast from the web. Will post my own when I pick her up in two weeks time.

Triathlon.Ads

TheSteveMeister wrote: »

Well,

Did a mega-amount of research since the last post I even stumbled upon Shimano tester reports on some forum (must find that link again and will post) and I practically feel like I could build my own groupset with the info I've gained . The general consensus really does appear to be - if you've got a more finely tuned responsive system than you do cash - Ultegra is the way to go. The weight difference is 'teeny-tiny' and whilst changing gear is slightly 'crisper' it's only noticeable during extreme exersion (someone else's words not mine).

Everyone's opinions/reviews etc I read, all said - 105's a plenty good for anyone, unless they are in the elite bracket and race professionally - in which case they usually bypass Ultegra completely and head straight for Dura Ace. 99% (maybe 98%) of opinions also said that you're way better off upgrading wheels rather than 105's to Ultegra as nothing will slow you down more than rotating mass!

I tried several bike stores (big and small) and even emailed a few huge places in the UK (6 to be exact) - all concurred and said - invest in wheels more so than anything else (providing you have a decent frame and groupset of course) - the difference between new Ultegra's and 105's is so small, it's not really worth mentioning unless you're obsessed or an avid fan. (Again, not my words.)

Attached is a (decent) photo of the beast from the web. Will post my own when I pick her up in two weeks time.

Hi TheSteveMeister,

I've been trawling around doing more or less the same level of research as it seems you have (based on the prev threds) - I googled Flet AR4, because I too and in love with it, though tossing up between the AR4 and AR5 also...I'm in Oz and can buy the AR4 for $3,899 or the AR5 for $3,799 from a shop in Melbourne; apparently they're doing a "super special" on the AR4 becuase they have them in stock, but they'd have to order the AR5 in for me so it's not as much of a discount (thought they said they could 'work something out for me').

So my question is, where are you buying yours from and how much is it costing you - if you don't mind me asking?

I'm looking for the best price for mine and would consider sourcing from overseas... Hope you can help?

Many thanks,
Ads

TheSteveMeister

Hey Ads.

In a nutshell, you'd be completely nuts not to take the AR4 over the AR5 for a difference of only $100AUD.

If you've researched around the web as you say, you should have a pretty good idea on the costs and the difference betweem the two. The difference between the AR4 and AR5 here is €600.00 (that's about $900AUD.)

Hope it goes well for ya. The AR5 is a beast - I'm totally chuffed to bits with it's performance. Solid.

dimma

there is more than the groupset differance betwenn AR4 and AR5.
AR4 also has better wheels areo 2 versus aero 4 plus the cableing of the STi's on ultergra is nicer than 105.
Plus AR4 is 16.9 versus 18.1 in the weight steaks!!!! (thats what the extra bucks gets you I guess)

i'd am getting the AR4 in a few weeks hopefully,,,
mind you I prefer the green of the AR5 to the gray of the AR4 but you have a mega bike anyhow, hope mine will be as good and yes my poor wallet will hurt big time!!!!
very good thread this was.

sweetswing

i was in wheelworks the other day and i have to say the AR4 just jumped out at me , its a real thing of beauty.
now im split between the AR4 and the GIANT TCR.??????????????

DirkVoodoo

sweetswing wrote: »

i was in wheelworks the other day and i have to say the AR4 just jumped out at me , its a real thing of beauty.
now im split between the AR4 and the GIANT TCR.??????????????

Both great bikes, I wouldn't worry. It will come down to whichever fits you better or feels "right". Just go and try them out.

For me, it would be the Felt.

dimma

I like the Felt but its a bit "fussy" and will date quick, also GIANT is way lighter with as good a groupo and is a very nice ride, soaks up the bump nicely and looks the fresher design. I have ridden both and also look at CUBE agree race or SL, very nice bikes, very very light german design with great reviews and something differant.
Whatever you choose is great, big bucks for the FELT/GIANT and you would have to upgrade the heavy wheels on the FELT at some stage while the Giant has it all....

Just my thoughts anyway!!!:D

D!armu!d

TheSteveMeister wrote: »

[I did check out SRAM actually, but even the guys in Wheelworx, Cyclelogical & Cycle Ways all said to stick with Shimano.]

Did they give any reasons why they wouldn't recommend switching to SRAM?

TheSteveMeister

D!armu!d wrote: »

Did they give any reasons why they wouldn't recommend switching to SRAM?

They basically told me that Shimano have been in business way too long to be just overlooked. They didn't say that there was anything wrong with SRAM by the way, they just recommended to stick with Shimano based on experience and reliability and said their own bikes mainly have Shimano too. (I know Rob has Sram on one of his (many) bikes - I'm just telling you what they told me.)

Hope this helps and really glad this thread was helpful to others. Thanks to all the guys I initially asked for their help - Dirk, Lumen, etc.