Opinions on Motor Tax

GTE

Hey all.

The search function wont accept "tax" so I can only hope it hasn't been talked about too recently.

My car when running perfectly reportedly puts out 143 grams of CO2 per KM.
Its from the year 2000 so I have to pay the full 582 euro of tax since its a 1.9.

I always assumed that my car would be horrendous on the CO2 front but now that I have researched it a bit it looks like if my car was a 2009 that I would be paying 300 or there about.

What would everyone's opinion on this be?
Has anyone brought it up with the powers at be? It doesnt seem logical that I should pay the extra, but of course Id say they have it the way they do so they can still pull some money in from the people like me with an older car.

Its pretty silly in my eyes.

If we have a CO2 based system CO2 is CO2 so I dont see why it cant apply to every car on the road.

Yeah owners of older diesels get screwed, there is something inherently wrong about a two tier system that penalises people who cant afford to purchase a newer car....


but sure what the hell CO2 isnt the problem anyway with the climategate scandals!

-Corkie-

Ya i have a 07 passat and it 582 for the year the 08 is more than half that. Well the op with the 00 diesel nows the time for the scrappage the goverment will tell you. Youll get a new octavia for a bit along with 17k and 100 euro a year roadtax. My other motor is over 2 grand a year aswell, its some rip off.

GTE

malcox wrote: »

Ya i have a 07 passat and it 582 for the year the 08 is more than half that. Well the op with the 00 diesel nows the time for the scrappage the goverment will tell you. Youll get a new octavia for a bit along with 17k and 100 euro a year roadtax. My other motor is over 2 grand a year aswell, its some rip off.

Indeed, everyone is telling me that the car should be retired for a new one.

The thing is though, Im getting similar if not better MPG then the new PD and CR TDIs now. Nothing has gone wrong with the car that is saying to me its time to replace it.
Its only the tax that is making things annoying.
Ohh, scam scam scam.

It will be a long time before I can afford a new car, and the way Im paying out at the moment wont help.

-Corkie-

I know what your saying, a friend just scrapped his oo golf 1.9tdi for new octavia!!! It seems gas to see such a good car scrapped as its in perfect condition with only 80k miles genuine. I even remember saying as a young fella would i ever afford one!!!!

Alun

bbk wrote: »

If we have a CO2 based system CO2 is CO2 so I dont see why it cant apply to every car on the road.

Are official CO2 figures available for every age of car on the road though?

Absurdum

You knew what the tax was when you bought it, that's just the way it is...

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah owners of older diesels get screwed, there is something inherently wrong about a two tier system that penalises people who cant afford to purchase a newer car....
!

But what about the inherant wrong of upping huge amounts of peoples tax overnight that own older petrol cars should the system be the same for everyone?

GTE

malcox wrote: »

I know what your saying, a friend just scrapped his oo golf 1.9tdi for new octavia!!! It seems gas to see such a good car scrapped as its in perfect condition with only 80k miles genuine. I even remember saying as a young fella would i ever afford one!!!!

Oh, yer plucking on heart stings now.:(
My Golf is in such good working order that if I had to get it scrapped id just feel downright sad. Its my first car too.

The scrappage scheme makes sense to me if you have an aul banger, but I dont believe there should be a general incentive to get rid of your old car like we have with tax and scrappage.

There are people in the world who would love to have a car as good as a nice 2000 Golf TDI among others and here we are scrapping them for no good reason. By that I mean the less well off places like parts of Ethiopia. Charity organisations could use them. Why isnt that part of the scheme?

This is close to being a full on rant about everything from me but Im wondering if there is any way I can get the proper tax applied to my car.
If not, let the rants begin.:p

GTE

Alun wrote: »

Are official CO2 figures available for every age of car on the road though?

Parkers.co.uk have those figures for the last 10 years of car.
I agree that its not printed everywhere, but is there not some test that you can get to find out what the story is with those emissions? Having those emissions logged at your NCT could have something to do with the tax you pay.
I dont know if CO2 is tested at the NCT however.

GTE

Stekelly wrote: »

But what about the inherant wrong of upping huge amounts of peoples tax overnight that own older petrol cars should the system be the same for everyone?

What do you mean by that? Im not familiar with what you are talking about.

Absurdum wrote: »

You knew what the tax was when you bought it, that's just the way it is...

Obviously. Maybe you miss my point, the problem I have now that I have researched the CO2 figure is that I logically should be paying something like 300 quid for tax. I assumed that if I had my car under the new tax scheme that I would be paying the same or more.
And its not like I had a choice about what tax scheme I want to come under when buying.

Guy:Incognito

bbk wrote: »

What do you mean by that? Im not familiar with what you are talking about.

If the co2 system was brought in for all cars, regardless of age, while a lot of older diesels will drop in motor tax rate, a lot of older petrols and maybe some diesels too) will go up over night. How is that fair? Things work both ways.

-Corkie-

bbk wrote: »

Oh, yer plucking on heart stings now.:(
My Golf is in such good working order that if I had to get it scrapped id just feel downright sad. Its my first car too.

The scrappage scheme makes sense to me if you have an aul banger, but I dont believe there should be a general incentive to get rid of your old car like we have with tax and scrappage.

There are people in the world who would love to have a car as good as a nice 2000 Golf TDI among others and here we are scrapping them for no good reason. By that I mean the less well off places like parts of Ethiopia. Charity organisations could use them. Why isnt that part of the scheme?

This is close to being a full on rant about everything from me but Im wondering if there is any way I can get the proper tax applied to my car.
If not, let the rants begin.:p

I see why your sad.I wouldnt blame you and theres no way that they will give me or you the reduced rate of tax and by the way i am gonna pull the rest of the heart strings. By the time i can afford to go above 08 or you can buy a new car they will have increased the co2 based tax to what it is now. I guarntee you.

GTE

Stekelly wrote: »

If the co2 system was brought in for all cars, regardless of age, while a lot of older diesels will drop in motor tax rate, a lot of older petrols and maybe some diesels too) will go up over night. How is that fair? Things work both ways.

Well, purely because its based on CO2 and if it was made across the board Id say that is perfectly fair. Think of the person who at the moment has a 2008 or 9 car that has the same CO2 as someone with an older petrol but that person pays less.
EDIT: Hmm, I have to think about that one. You do raise a good point.

Malcox.
Im sad now. . . haha

Voodoomelon

What makes even less sense to me is how the government copy the UK system and introduce emissions based motor tax and push the whole environmental side of things, all the while keeping the older system based on engine size as if it makes some kind of sense?

A 2003 1.0l Micra emits 141g co2/km resulting in €172 motor tax.
Mine emits less than twice that, 267g co2/km and I pay €1248, OVER 7 TIMES as much! And not only that, I only do 8k-10k miles a year, so some student can drive to college for 16k miles a year, emit MORE co2 than me over the year and pay OVER 7 TIMES LESS motor tax! And no doubt an old 1.0l is kept in sh!te compared to mine, pumping out even more co2.

Infuriating!

EDIT: I realise that the older taxes result from engine size, i'm just pointing out the co2 of the older cars.

jackofalltrades

bkk wrote:

If we have a CO2 based system CO2 is CO2 so I dont see why it cant apply to every car on the road.

I drive an 01 Audi A4 2.0 petrol, CO2 emissions of 197 g/km.

Tax on current system €614
Tax if it was done under C02 emissions €1050:eek:

Total increase €416

Your suggested changes would make the car economically unviable and worthless overnight, forcing me to buy a newer car and scrapping a perfectly good well maintained one.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote: »

But what about the inherant wrong of upping huge amounts of peoples tax overnight that own older petrol cars should the system be the same for everyone?

oh hey I completely agree that would be wrong just as wrong as screwing older diesel owners
pay as you drive is the way, this CO2 business is green bull

Mad_Max

Toughie. I'd benefit from a total co2 based emissions but everyone else in family has petrols and would be shafted.

I would still say though, that if they brought in a new scale based on co2, with the purpose of lowering emissions, then it really should be across the board. Then help the people with higher emission cars to upgrade. Nothing forcing the old emission hounds off the road really.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

oh hey I completely agree that would be wrong just as wrong as screwing older diesel owners
pay as you drive is the way, this CO2 business is green bull

But the difference is your not screwing the older diesel owners. They bought their cars knowing the tax rate. Anyone who thought the tax on their car would be slashed at some stage was a bit deliusional to be fair.

Mad_Max wrote: »

I would still say though, that if they brought in a new scale based on co2, with the purpose of lowering emissions, then it really should be across the board. Then help the people with higher emission cars to upgrade. Nothing forcing the old emission hounds off the road really.

But what about the probably thousands of people that would be put off the road at next renewal date because of the cost of the tax? If they cant afford a big tax hike then they most likely cant afford to go buy an 08 car.

My Xantia afaik has emmisions high enough for the top rate of tax on the new system, pushing it from €551 to €2100.

GTE

Purely if it was based on CO2 and many cars would hike up then I would imagine that some system of gradual increases in tax could apply to let the owner of a such a car to upgrade.

I understand that if it was made across the board many people would get screwed but then that would need to be looked at. The point of the CO2 system is so people with high emissions cars upgrade to lower, so if it does come in across the board and you have a high emission and you are forced to upgrade the system is working.

Maybe the system in general needs to be looked at but a two tier anything isnt fair and just as if it was standardised.

Keep in mind I am only talking about CO2 emissions. If the point is to cut down on them then it should be treated across the board. I do understand that it would be an annoying hike for some petrol owners.

I seriously doubt that the current emissions system is the dogs behind and the most perfect system out there, so overall I think it needs a good going over anyway.

Guy:Incognito

bbk wrote: »

Maybe the system in general needs to be looked at but a two tier anything isnt fair and just as if it was standardised..

It will standardise itself over time . The further we get from 08 the cheaper the lower emissions cars get, people who want cheap tax will eventually be able to change and people who love a particular car and are ok with paying the rates can pick up cheap older cars.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote: »

But the difference is your not screwing the older diesel owners. They bought their cars knowing the tax rate. Anyone who thought the tax on their car would be slashed at some stage was a bit deliusional to be fair.

I accept that but there is still something 100% wrong about charging two people different rates for the same thing. Its another tax break for the wealthy the little guy be damned if he thinks he is gonna get the same break

Another alternative to a pay as you drive motor tax would be a decreasing rate for older cars to encourage them to be well maintained and kept on the roads as opposed to importing newer cars and increasing the amount of external debt our country has

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote: »

My Xantia afaik has emmisions high enough for the top rate of tax on the new system, pushing it from €551 to €2100.

Several scenarios here:

its a filthy car proving the new tax rate does not encourage trading up as people will prefer older petrols to newer petrols
or
The car isnt actually filthy, it just emits alot of CO2 (arguments for and against the global warming lark exist) while diesels, even modern diesels emit more particulates giving you cancer and other respiratory diseases........

Anyway we pay way too much in motor tax to begin with but with the billions needed to bail out the banks the will be no decreases!

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

I accept that but there is still something 100% wrong about charging two people different rates for the same thing. Its another tax break for the wealthy the little guy be damned if he thinks he is gonna get the same break

The "one rule" thing doesnt ring true. New cars can be had for under €8k nowadays. You dont have to be wealthy for that.

Mad_Max

Stekelly wrote: »

But what about the probably thousands of people that would be put off the road at next renewal date because of the cost of the tax? If they cant afford a big tax hike then they most likely cant afford to go buy an 08 car.

My Xantia afaik has emmisions high enough for the top rate of tax on the new system, pushing it from €551 to €2100.

Very true about knowing the rates. personally I was willing to suck it up because I really wanted the car.

I still think that if you're policy is to lower emissions then it needs to be across the board. The rates could be lowered (2100 is ridiculous for anything other than a plane!) or scaled as someone mentioned for those with older cars (for example for every year you keep your high emissions car it goes up 50 quid or something, or even to do the opposite and every year you have a 07 low emissions car it goes down! either way).

I don't know how to make it fair but if your policy is "green" I can't understand how they can have a system that encourages "non-green" cars to remain.

Stekelly wrote: »

It will standardise itself over time . The further we get from 08 the cheaper the lower emissions cars get, people who want cheap tax will eventually be able to change and people who love a particular car and are ok with paying the rates can pick up cheap older cars.

But then the same happens again that someone with an 07 who keeps the car for as long as those have kept their old petrols still get screwed.

Now if we could just scrap the tax altogether! :P

Heroditas

Voodoomelon wrote: »

What makes even less sense to me is how the government copy the UK system and introduce emissions based motor tax and push the whole environmental side of things, all the while keeping the older system based on engine size as if it makes some kind of sense?

A 2003 1.0l Micra emits 141g co2/km resulting in €172 motor tax.
Mine emits less than twice that, 267g co2/km and I pay €1248, OVER 7 TIMES as much! And not only that, I only do 8k-10k miles a year, so some student can drive to college for 16k miles a year, emit MORE co2 than me over the year and pay OVER 7 TIMES LESS motor tax! And no doubt an old 1.0l is kept in sh!te compared to mine, pumping out even more co2.

Infuriating!

EDIT: I realise that the older taxes result from engine size, i'm just pointing out the co2 of the older cars.

Nail on the head here.
This also applies to BIK on company cars.
Part of the tax is based on the CO2 emmissions, i.e. the less CO2 it emits, the less the tax is.
HOWEVER you still get taxed less, the MORE you drive it! Completely illogical.

smash

bbk wrote: »

Its pretty silly in my eyes.

If we have a CO2 based system CO2 is CO2 so I dont see why it cant apply to every car on the road.

Because it would screw over more people than it would benefit, and by a lot more than the €200 you'd save!

If you don't like it then trade up to save a measly €200 a year...

What I think is unfair is that you only pay €582 a year but someone will a 3ltr+ weekend car that will do around a quarter of your yearly mileage will pay 3 times what you pay.

The only fair way is to abolish motor tax and make the carbon tax on fuel larger so the polluter actually does pay.

JHMEG

steve06 wrote: »

The only fair way is to abolish motor tax and make the carbon tax on fuel larger so the polluter actually does pay.

That would normally be the case. Except this is Ireland of the Property Bubble where people were forced into longer and longer commutes thanks to ballooning house prices. Moving all the tax onto fuel punishes those people even more.

I don't think there is an equitable solution.

I also don't understand why when the moved to an emissions-based tax system that the based it on just one (harmless) gas, and not on the total pollution. I suspect the Greens don't know there is more to emissions than CO2.

GTE

I had a thought about the current system. If we are to keep it it would make more sense if it was something like since your cars engine was built when not in a CO2 concious time then you pay the old system unless your engine happens to have a co2 rating that is less then the tax you would have to pay in the old system.

That would be a good way to phase out the old system and in with the new.

The amount of miles you cover during a year is something different to what Im on about. I dont have any experience with that.
Ahh well.

smash

JHMEG wrote: »

That would normally be the case. Except this is Ireland of the Property Bubble where people were forced into longer and longer commutes thanks to ballooning house prices. Moving all the tax onto fuel punishes those people even more.

That really doesn't matter, polluter pays is the only fair way! When these people upgrade to electric in a few years like the government want us to, then they'll get screwed by charging rates anyway because they'll charge more than most people!

Anan1

steve06 wrote: »

That really doesn't matter, polluter pays is the only fair way! When these people upgrade to electric in a few years like the government want us to, then they'll get screwed by charging rates anyway because they'll charge more than most people!

It'd really have to be done in the UK at the same time, otherwise a lot of people will simply buy their fuel in the North.

JHMEG

steve06 wrote: »

That really doesn't matter, polluter pays is the only fair way!

You wouldn't be saying that if you were commuting from Longford!

Anan1

JHMEG wrote: »

You wouldn't be saying that if you were commuting from Longford!

The idea is to discourage long commutes.

Hagar

If there must be a tax on motoring the only fair way to do it is to pay more tax the more you drive. Tax the fuel not the vehicle.

"Carbon-tax" is only a buzz word to justify a new tax.
"The polluter pays" is a just another spin doctor term designed to divide and conquer the tax payer.

If we were still in horse and carts they would tax horse ownership and weigh horseshíte as a basis for a second tax.

Motorists, stop fighting amongst yourselves and fight the true enemy, the money grabbing politicians who are robbing you blind and the wasting your hard earned money.

My 2c.

Voodoomelon

The lads in the american message boards cannot BELIEVE what I pay over here. My ozzie cousins were over a few months back and they too thought I was absolutely stone mad to pay the tax and petrol costs that I do.

To penalise a driver so much so as to cripple him, and then do nothing about public transport to compensate is utterly demoralising.

I was talking to a guy who had a 2007 M5 and he genuinely doesn't want a new one as he can't justifying spending €2100 a year in tax. It's not only the ordinary joes who can't/don't want to pay it, the lads who can afford to pay it don't necessarily want to either.

JHMEG

Anan1 wrote: »

The idea is to discourage long commutes.

You discourage long commutes using correct planning and housing policy.

Del2005

bbk wrote: »

There are people in the world who would love to have a car as good as a nice 2000 Golf TDI among others and here we are scrapping them for no good reason. By that I mean the less well off places like parts of Ethiopia. Charity organisations could use them. Why isnt that part of the scheme?

The poor people of Africa need lots of things but 10 year old cars they most definitely don't need. All your doing is giving them something they'll need to spend money maintaining, have you seen the state of the roads in Africa?

Mad_Max wrote: »

Toughie. I'd benefit from a total co2 based emissions but everyone else in family has petrols and would be shafted.

I would still say though, that if they brought in a new scale based on co2, with the purpose of lowering emissions, then it really should be across the board. Then help the people with higher emission cars to upgrade. Nothing forcing the old emission hounds off the road really.

bbk wrote: »

Purely if it was based on CO2 and many cars would hike up then I would imagine that some system of gradual increases in tax could apply to let the owner of a such a car to upgrade.

I understand that if it was made across the board many people would get screwed but then that would need to be looked at. The point of the CO2 system is so people with high emissions cars upgrade to lower, so if it does come in across the board and you have a high emission and you are forced to upgrade the system is working.

Maybe the system in general needs to be looked at but a two tier anything isnt fair and just as if it was standardised.

Keep in mind I am only talking about CO2 emissions. If the point is to cut down on them then it should be treated across the board. I do understand that it would be an annoying hike for some petrol owners.

I seriously doubt that the current emissions system is the dogs behind and the most perfect system out there, so overall I think it needs a good going over anyway.

What's the point of forcing people to buy low emission cars if they have a perfectly good car now.

The CO2 tax bands are supposed to be "Green". Now it's not very green to scrap a good car (CO2 emissions generated in scrapping it), build a new car (more CO2 emissions building a new car) and then transporting it to an Island off the coast of Europe(more CO2 emissions in shipping). How many miles does the new car have to driven to balance out the amount of CO2 that was emitted to get a few grammes of CO2 less per km? Or does CO2 produced in Japan/England/Korea/Italy etc not affect us?*


* Not that I'm convinced about man induced global warming, but that's the why the politicians say they are doing it.

GTE

Del2005 wrote: »

What's the point of forcing people to buy low emission cars if they have a perfectly good car now.

Exactly the question I ask when I look at my car.
And all I was doing by quoting using the cars for charities in less well off places is an example of what could be done with the scrapped cars, not really the point of the thread though.

cnocbui

The tax is used by county councils to maintain roads, among other things. Damage caused to roads is pretty much proportional to a vehicles weight.

I think motor tax should be based on vehicle weight alone, say €0.5 per Kg.

Damage to roads is also a function of distance travelled, so fuel based taxes could be used to generate the rest of the revenue needed to maintain and upgrade the road network.

Basing taxes on emissions, fuel type or engine size is daft and is unnecessarily complicated and leads to iniquities.

Base the tax on weight and everyone pays the same.

smash

69 wrote: »

If there must be a tax on motoring the only fair way to do it is to pay more tax the more you drive. Tax the fuel not the vehicle.
__________________

"The polluter pays" is a just another spin doctor term designed to divide and conquer the tax payer.

You just contradicted yourself....

cnocbui wrote: »

The tax is used by county councils to maintain roads, among other things.

You're thinking about road tax... We no longer have that, we have motor tax which goes into the big pot, it's not for maintaining roads.

bongi69

Del2005 wrote: »

have you seen the state of the roads in Africa?

In most places yes, in some more developed countries they're better than here. And I speak from experience :P

I drive a 99 1.4 VW Golf, with a current annual motor tax of €333. The owners manual states CO2 emmissions to be 154g/km, and considering its serviced regularly and looked after, it probably comes in close enough to this figure.

If the motor tax was based on CO2 emmissions, it would be €302 for the year. Not really much of a saving

VolvoMan

I think what should be done is the introduction of a system where the older the car gets, the less its road tax becomes. I have a 2.5 litre Volvo and it costs its value every year to tax it, which is sheer madness in my opinion. A system that reduced the road tax to say around 500 per annum on the car's tenth anniversary would make sense I feel.

Either that or abolish the system altogether.

cnocbui

steve06 wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself....

You're thinking about road tax... We no longer have that, we have motor tax which goes into the big pot, it's not for maintaining roads.

Sorry, you are correct, I had quite forgotten that roads repair themselves these days.

MetzgerMeister

Mazda stopped selling the RX-8 in Ireland due to the new CO2 system being introduced.

RX-8's from 2003-2008 were all taxed as 1.8s meaning (now) €551 per year.

Since the new system came in, they would have been €2100 per year.

It's sickening. :mad:

smash

cnocbui wrote: »

Sorry, you are correct, I had quite forgotten that roads repair themselves these days.

A county council gets an allocation for spending, they budget and spend the money on what they want. A car registered in say Carlow pays motor tax, this tax no longer goes to the Carlow county council for road maintenance.

Zubeneschamali

cnocbui wrote: »

Damage caused to roads is pretty much proportional to a vehicles weight.

No, it's much worse than that. Damage to roads scales with the fourth power of axle weight. That essentially means your car doesn't damage the roads at all in any measurable way compared to a HGV.