Irish digital TV. Is it freeview?

will3001

So I'm looking for a littel information on digital TV in Ireland and more specifically how my TV picks it up. I recently purchased a new Phillips TV and I can get the usual rte 1,2 TV3 etc through my aeriel. I also can get very clear (digital??? ) signals from these channels as well including RTE news 24. These signal are obviously coming through my aeriel since when I unplug it they disappear.

So my question is if I get a DVD recorder with a freeview tuner will it pick up these also. I seems to understand that the freeview in 1 country is different to another e.g. so that a UK freeview DVD recorder will not pick up these enhanced signals.

I may not have my terminiology fully correct here but I think you'll get the jist.

Thanks

Bob_Harris

Take a look at this excellent, if underpopulated, website: www.mpeg4ireland.com :pac:

No *current* Freeview equipment will work with the Irish DTT - Saorview.

Better than a DVD recorder is a receiver with an internal hard drive / USB or eSata port for an external hard drive.

coylemj

Freeview is the term for UK DTT, currently using the MPEG2 standard though they are starting to roll out HD TV via the DVB-T2 standard. The Irish trial DTT currently being broadcast from all of the main transmitters and a few of the relays uses the MPEG4 standard.

Reports from users here say that if your TV has MPEG2 only (which means it typically was advertised as 'Freeview') then when you pickup the RTE DTT signals you will get sound but no picture. That means that if you record RTE DTT programmes on a Freeview (MPEG2) recorder you will be wasting your time as you'll get no picture.

If you're going to invest in a recorder then you'd be as well off waiting for a DVB-T2 capable box with recording ability or as the other poster suggested, a decoder box with an external port into which you can plug a SATA drive which you can buy in PC World or similar shops.

will3001

Excellent, that makes sense and its nice and simple. Any recommendation for a receiver with USB or HDD as you suggest?

coylemj

will3001 wrote: »

Excellent, that makes sense and its nice and simple. Any recommendation for a receiver with USB or HDD as you suggest?

The UK is taking a leap over MPEG4 and going straight to DVB-T2 but the market is still very small so your best bet would be to sit tight and do nothing for the moment. Unless you source it from mainland Europe you probably won't find any MPEG4 recorder box because the UK never did MPEG4 and the Irish DTT isn't officially off the ground yet so aside from the early adopters you'll find in these forums there's nobody in these islands interested in an MPEG4 recorder.

Bob_Harris

saortv.ie has a good range of receivers, mostly combo boxes (terrestrial and satellite).

coylemj

Bob_Harris wrote: »

saortv.ie has a good range of receivers, mostly combo boxes (terrestrial and satellite).

All of their terrestrial boxes are MPEG4 meaning they will not be able to receive UK DVB-T2 and if the Irish authorities decide to take a leap into HD the MPEG4 boxes will be rendered obsolete.

Given that the UK market is going DVB-T2, there will soon be a raft of suitable decoders and recorders on the market, especially if BBC terrestrial broadcasts the World Cup in HD. Any DVB-T2 intended for the UK box will also work with the Irish MPEG4 DTT broadcasts and will future-proof you in the event that Ireland follows the UK down the HD road and goes DVB-T2.

will3001

Excellent info..thanks to all that replied.

coylemj

will3001 wrote: »

Excellent, that makes sense and its nice and simple. Any recommendation for a receiver with USB or HDD as you suggest?

As of yet I don't believe anyone is offering a DVB-T2 recorder, the folk in Humax have a DVB-T2 decoder (link below) but it doesn't have record and there's no spec. sheet to download so I don't know if it can record to an external disk drive. There is a cryptic item in the list of features 'Portal Ready for future purpose' which is probably referring to the Ethernet and USB ports, they might be suggesting that at some stage in the future you'll be able to record to a network (NAS) drive via Ethernet or to a USB-attached SATA drive.

http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk/products/product_stb_terrestrial_hdfoxt2.aspx

Bob_Harris

coylemj wrote: »

All of their terrestrial boxes are MPEG4 meaning they will not be able to receive UK DVB-T2 and if the Irish authorities decide to take a leap into HD the MPEG4 boxes will be rendered obsolete.

Given that the UK market is going DVB-T2, there will soon be a raft of suitable decoders and recorders on the market, especially if BBC terrestrial broadcasts the World Cup in HD. Any DVB-T2 intended for the UK box will also work with the Irish MPEG4 DTT broadcasts and will future-proof you in the event that Ireland follows the UK down the HD road and goes DVB-T2.

I don't think the poster was asking about UK Freeview. Only people who intend to receive both UK Freeview and Irish DTT need consider MPEG4 / DVB-T2 boxes.

Irish DTT, Saorview, is and will be MPEG4 / DVB-T for many years to come.

coylemj

Bob_Harris wrote: »

Irish DTT, Saorview, is and will be MPEG4 / DVB-T for many years to come.

I wouldn't bet on that. If and when the BBC and ITV start broadcasting HD on Freeview the folks in RTE/BAI will have to seriously considering dumping MPEG4 in favour of DVB-T2.

Given the sceptical and downright nasty nature of the press these days, the newspapers will come down like a ton of bricks on RTE if they announce that people will have to buy STBs to receive a service that is inferior to what is being offered in the UK, especially as it looks like NI will go straight to DVB-T2 as an unintended side effect of them being the last of the UK regions to go digital.

Another good reason to go DVB-T2 is that everyone along the border and down the east coast who currently receives UK terrestrial TV from Wales or NI will have to buy DVB-T2 boxes thereby diminishing the market for MPEG4 STBs to rural people who are currently too stingy or poor to pay Eur 200 for a Freesat service and I can't see any electrical supplier taking a chance on importing thousands of boxes for that market unless the Government pays for them and hands them out for free like Joe Jacob's iodine pills!

So I say that MPEG4 will never get off the ground here.

Bob_Harris

coylemj wrote: »

I wouldn't bet on that. If and when the BBC and ITV start broadcasting HD on Freeview the folks in RTE/BAI will have to seriously considering dumping MPEG4 in favour of DVB-T2.

Given the sceptical and downright nasty nature of the press these days, the newspapers will come down like a ton of bricks on RTE if they announce that people will have to buy STBs to receive a service that is inferior to what is being offered in the UK, especially as it looks like NI will go straight to DVB-T2 as an unintended side effect of them being the last of the UK regions to go digital.

Another good reason to go DVB-T2 is that everyone along the border and down the east coast who currently receives UK terrestrial TV from Wales or NI will have to buy DVB-T2 boxes thereby diminishing the market for MPEG4 STBs to rural people who are currently too stingy or poor to pay Eur 200 for a Freesat service and I can't see any electrical supplier taking a chance on importing thousands of boxes for that market unless the Government pays for them and hands them out for free like Joe Jacob's iodine pills!

So I say that MPEG4 will never get off the ground here.

"RTÉ has appointed Teracom AB to conduct receiver compliance testing for Irish free-to-air (FTA) DTT receivers."

The specification is set, compliance testing is under-way. It would be a massive, and unlikely U-turn to change spec.

In fact, from a commercial standpoint, it would be better to use DVB-T opposed to DVB-T2. If everyone had a DVB-T2 box in the country, OneVision or whoever the commercial operator is / will be, would loose massive amounts of viewers in areas where there is a decent HD Free-view signal.

If you tie everyone into an Ireland specific standard, you gain more viewers. Sure enthusiasts will go ahead and buy a DVB-T2 box anyway, but the majority of people will buy what they told to buy from an ad on the TV.

Look at what happened to the proposed free to air BBC on Irish DTT, commercial pressure forced a U-turn by the Government.

coylemj wrote: »

So I say that MPEG4 will never get off the ground here.

I think you mean DVB-T. HD Freeview is also MEPG4.

slegs

coylemj wrote: »

All of their terrestrial boxes are MPEG4 meaning they will not be able to receive UK DVB-T2 and if the Irish authorities decide to take a leap into HD the MPEG4 boxes will be rendered obsolete.

Given that the UK market is going DVB-T2, there will soon be a raft of suitable decoders and recorders on the market, especially if BBC terrestrial broadcasts the World Cup in HD. Any DVB-T2 intended for the UK box will also work with the Irish MPEG4 DTT broadcasts and will future-proof you in the event that Ireland follows the UK down the HD road and goes DVB-T2.

1. DVB-T2 is used with MPEG4 also so DVB-T2 is backwardly compatible with DVB-T/MPEG4. DVB-T2 is not a progression of MPEG4.

2. There is nothing to stop RTE launching HD on DVB-T/MPEG4. France do exactly this at the moment and show no signs of going to T2 in the short term. In fact the RTE specification directly implies that they want all STB's to be HD compliant to plan for laucning HD channels on DVB-T/MPEG4. They have never even indicated that they would look at T2 for HD.

3. If RTE launch a HD channel on DTT in any format within 2 years I would be very surprised (was going to say eat my hat - but that tempts fate ).

4. There many be a blast of DVB-T2 freeview boxes released soon but I doubt many of them will be reasonably priced initially. In addition, I would doubt there will be many combo T2/S2 boxes in the short term and these will be quite a bit more expensive

5. The specification is set and published for Irish DTT as DVB-T/MPEG4 as has been said over and over again. Any conjecture on DVB-T2 for the Republic of Ireland is wild speculation without basis in fact and is particularly confusing for people who are looking for solid information on what to do. It may come eventually but in my opinion that is a long way off (3-5 years) considering how long it has taken us to get to this point. By the time we do get T2 the set top boxes will be better value.

6. RTE / We have absolutely no need to invest in DVB-T2 at this time. We dont have the channel demand to use the extra capacity available which is the main drive to use DVB-T2.


So, wait for T2 boxes if you like but in my opinion unless you can receive UK spillover T2 (which will have only a couple of HD channels that you cant receive from Freesat/Satellite FTA anyway) there is nothing to be gained and it will cost you much more in the pocket.

That said all DVB-T2/MPEG4 boxes will work fine for the Irish DVB-T/MPEG4 service so if they do turn out to be very cheap it can only be good for us. It doesnt mean we need to upgrade to DVB-T2 at a network level though.

STB

coylemj wrote: »

I wouldn't bet on that. If and when the BBC and ITV start broadcasting HD on Freeview the folks in RTE/BAI will have to seriously considering dumping MPEG4 in favour of DVB-T2.

Given the sceptical and downright nasty nature of the press these days, the newspapers will come down like a ton of bricks on RTE if they announce that people will have to buy STBs to receive a service that is inferior to what is being offered in the UK, especially as it looks like NI will go straight to DVB-T2 as an unintended side effect of them being the last of the UK regions to go digital.

Another good reason to go DVB-T2 is that everyone along the border and down the east coast who currently receives UK terrestrial TV from Wales or NI will have to buy DVB-T2 boxes thereby diminishing the market for MPEG4 STBs to rural people who are currently too stingy or poor to pay Eur 200 for a Freesat service and I can't see any electrical supplier taking a chance on importing thousands of boxes for that market unless the Government pays for them and hands them out for free like Joe Jacob's iodine pills!

So I say that MPEG4 will never get off the ground here.

Do you actually understand what you are talking about ? Please dont take this personally but that must be the most idiotic post I have seen in a long time. And its not your fault, its eejits talking nonsense about Freeview that have made long time posters on this area like yourself believe this tripe . Eejits from other jurisdictions who cant even receive the Irish DTT in the first instance.

MPEG4 is a video codec. DVB-T is a broadcasting platform. DVB-T2 is also a broadcasting platform.

• Ireland WILL use MPEG4 SD on DVB-T.

• The UK will use MPEG2 on DVB-T for 98% of its Freeview Service. The other 2% will be a few HD stations using MPEG4 HD on DVB-T2.

OUR broadcasting platform is most certainly NOT vastly infererior either! Antything but infact.

Broadcast Quality wise we are and will be txing at a visually higher qualitythan MPEG2 using a more effecient codec in MPEG4 H264.

The UK will be stuck with MPEG2 for the next 5 years at least despite having a small number of HD stations in MPEG4. The rest REMAIN in MPEG2 SD.

People in areas of terrestrial overspill should not regard it as dependable - it is just that overspill! For that very reason people along the East Coast will not be running out to buy DVB-T2 boxes (as will the majority of the UK for the extra 3/4 channels that can receive - the majority of which are already mirrored by the existing HD sat equivelants)

If you want to watch FTA stations from the UK then get a Freesat/FTA sat box.

We have adopted MPEG4 on DVB-T in line with the rest of our European colleagues. The UK are testing DVB-T2 on a small number of HD stations. Their standard definition stations actually remain in MPEG2!

By the way MPEg4 is off the ground. RTE NL now broadcast to 80% of the country digitally, and have done for the last year and a half. Engineering Tests or NOT.

What worries me most is how this board has been hijacked by Uk enthuasiasts talking down Irish DTT and blowing the trumpet of DVB-T2 as if it the saviour of digital broadcasting. It is infact a UK solution to a UK problem -bandwidth problems specifcally because of the high number of stations that are broadcast in the UK. A more efficient codec will loosen the squeeze. Thats all. It doesnt effect us. Small population, small advertising base, small number of stations.....

The Cush

coylemj wrote: »

especially as it looks like NI will go straight to DVB-T2 as an unintended side effect of them being the last of the UK regions to go digital.

As the other areas were covered expertly by the previous posters I will pick you up on this point.

NI will not go completely DVB-T2 at ASO.

58% of NI has coverage of the six multiplexes now, add to this viewers outside the coverage area until ASO (approx 2 years away) replacing TVs with DVB-T/MPEG-2 only sets between now and then. Don't you think Ofcom would be telling the general public of your plan and not wasting their money buying soon-to-be-out-date equipment?

Imagine the chaos as ASO approaches and the majority of existing digital TVs facing obselence.

The only thing Ofcom has indicated to date about ASO in NI is that the changeover will probably happen in one stage, unlike the present two stage / two to four week process because of the knowledge built up during the transition in the previous years and the availabilty of digital equipment in peoples homes.

2.9 • It is very important that the existing PSB services continue to be available
universally to existing Freeview viewers. This means that, for the foreseeable
future, we think that the multiplexes carrying existing PSB services (Multiplexes 1
and 2) must be required to continue operating on current technologies, namely
DVB-T and MPEG-2.

• In relation to the commercial multiplexes, we believe that any further adoption of
these new technical standards, either jointly or individually, will need to be
evaluated carefully on a case-by-case basis. We are very interested to hear of
proposals which would extend the use of these more efficient standards.
However, we also wish to ensure that their use does not unacceptably diminish
the range, variety and quality of services available to DTT viewers.

3.18 Therefore, in bringing about this improvement in spectrum efficiency, we also have
as an objective to ensure that DTT viewers can continue to have access to the vast
majority of services that are currently carried on the DTT platform using their existing
DTT receiving equipment. In our consultation, we were not proposing to change the
broadcast standards for the main public service channels (which would continue to
be broadcast using MPEG-2 coding and thereby carried on multiplexes using DVB-T
standards) for the foreseeable future. We remain of this view.

4.9 Some respondents also raised the issue of accelerated equipment obsolescence and
the prospect of a potential second switchover – in particular BT who, with a large
installed base of receivers, felt they would be particularly affected. It was noted that
the future adoption of DVB-T2 on other multiplexes would be difficult to achieve due
to the ”step change” required to clear other multiplexes and the difficulty this could
create for reorganising the carriage of existing services. It was felt that this could be a
particular issue given that the multiplexes would be operating at nearly full capacity
after DSO and the proposed reorganisation. Some respondents considered that
additional spectrum would therefore be needed to implement further upgrades.

Ofcom's Digital Television: Enabling New Services - Facilitating efficiency on DTT, Apr 2008

mrdtv2010

The Cush wrote: »

As the other areas were covered expertly by the previous posters I will pick you up on this point.

NI will not go completely DVB-T2 at ASO.

58% of NI has coverage of the six multiplexes now, add to this viewers outside the coverage area until ASO (approx 2 years away) replacing TVs with DVB-T/MPEG-2 only sets between now and then. Don't you think Ofcom would be telling the general public of your plan and not wasting their money buying soon-to-be-out-date equipment?

Imagine the chaos as ASO approaches and the majority of existing digital TVs facing obselence.

The only thing Ofcom has indicated to date about ASO in NI is that the changeover will probably happen in one stage, unlike the present two stage / two to four week process because of the knowledge built up during the transition in the previous years and the availabilty of digital equipment in peoples homes.

It is very likely the changeover will be in one go, the current 2010 changeovers are switching to a two week transition, Channel Islands are going in one day in November. T2 HD will be radiated from Divis et al in 2012. Ofcom have a duty to promote spectrum efficiency and its likely that the auctioned 600Mhz spectrum (you posted the link on that last week) if used for DTT would use T2: especially if Sky were to win the auctions. A 40Mb/s T2 multiplex could be used for 20 SD pay services making Picnic a very attractive proposition if authorised this March as many are anticipating. In addition the ill-fated MoU stated that the emerging standards were T2 MPEG4 and T1 MPEG4 in Ireland: so Ofcom might want any low power DTT multiplex carrying RTE et al in NI to use T2 which would also be backwards compatible with T1 MPEG4 overspill transmissions. There is also a fascinating BBC distribution presentation where they discuss the migration to T2 of all multiplexes: I will post the link to that later. By the time 2012 comes around T2 will be far more affordable, in most TVs, and manufacturers will drop T1 only boxes. Why pay Sky or Virgin for the five PSB HD channels when you can get them for free? Currys have announced the Humax Fox T2 box is their best seller...

slegs

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

It is very likely the changeover will be in one go, the current 2010 changeovers are switching to a two week transition, Channel Islands are going in one day in November. T2 HD will be radiated from Divis et al in 2012. Ofcom have a duty to promote spectrum efficiency and its likely that the auctioned 600Mhz spectrum (you posted the link on that last week) if used for DTT would use T2: especially if Sky were to win the auctions. A 40Mb/s T2 multiplex could be used for 20 SD pay services making Picnic a very attractive proposition if authorised this March as many are anticipating. In addition the ill-fated MoU stated that the emerging standards were T2 MPEG4 and T1 MPEG4 in Ireland: so Ofcom might want any low power DTT multiplex carrying RTE et al in NI to use T2 which would also be backwards compatible with T1 MPEG4 overspill transmissions. There is also a fascinating BBC distribution presentation where they discuss the migration to T2 of all multiplexes: I will post the link to that later. By the time 2012 comes around T2 will be far more affordable, in most TVs, and manufacturers will drop T1 only boxes. Why pay Sky or Virgin for the five PSB HD channels when you can get them for free? Currys have announced the Humax Fox T2 box is their best seller...

Are you suggesting that the UK are going to force everyone to upgrade their MPEG2 DVB-T TVs and set top boxes by 2012 before ASO completes? If not, then the UK will still have an MPEG2 DVB-T DTT system for the vast majority of its channels and customers.

T2 will be great for the UK as they cant do HD on their antiquated MPEG2 DVB-T system but it has little to no relevance for ROI.

mrdtv2010

slegs wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the UK are going to force everyone to upgrade their MPEG2 DVB-T TVs and set top boxes by 2012 before ASO completes? If not, then the UK will still have an MPEG2 DVB-T DTT system for the vast majority of its channels and customers.


T2 will be great for the UK as they cant do HD on their antiquated MPEG2 DVB-T system but it has little to no relevance for ROI.

You should read what is written in the above post carefully. Only one T2 mux for DSO but likely all future muxes to be T2 for economic efficiency and spectrum efficiency reasons.

Yes, but at least they have had a consumer service for TWELVE years. In Ireland they have been talking and talking about it for TWELVE years and still no announced launch date for a consumer service. In NI they have had it for twelve years as well. I suspect the five channel FTA PSB HD offer will be a rather attractive consumer proposition just like Freeview SD was. If and when Irish DTT is *actually * launched this year then questions of relevance will be applicable.

STB

slegs wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the UK are going to force everyone to upgrade their MPEG2 DVB-T TVs and set top boxes by 2012 before ASO completes? If not, then the UK will still have an MPEG2 DVB-T DTT system for the vast majority of its channels and customers.

T2 will be great for the UK as they cant do HD on their antiquated MPEG2 DVB-T system but it has little to no relevance for ROI.

He is just ignoring the questions Slegs. There will only be ONE DVB-T2 Mux for the UK HD Channels. The rest remain as we all know in MPEG2 on DVB-T for the forseeable future. That forseeable future is proably 4/5 years. Regardless of Currys announcing what their best seller is, it is miniscule to the amount of MPEG2 boxes that have already been bought in the UK over the preceding "12 years" and continue to be sold NOW. That will continue to be a thorn in the selling of a more expensive dvb-t2 box, the purchase of which could not be justified for a handful of HD stations. Did Currys mention what their best selling IDTV is ? Bet you it doesnt include DVB-T2 hardware!

And "Mr DTV" at least we (little old Ireland) are getting it right from the start in adopting MPEG4. We wont have the headaches of souble DSO (ie one to switch off ASO and one to switch off MPEG2!). Not that I dont wish the UK well with the venture. It is after all a long term solution to bandwidth problems in the UK and what goes with being in the unenviable position of having lots of stations through a massive population base.

This has little or no relevance to Ireland for the forseeable future. We have adopted the standard of choice within Europe.

However i respect that the UK are testing new technology in DVB-T2 and its only benefit to Ireland would be on a consumer basis in 5 years time or whatever time it takes DVB-T2 products to find an equal footing with DVB-T MPEG4 products. That may never happen.

The established market for DVB-T MPEG4 products is widespead accross Europe where the price point has now reached €60 for a HD DVB-T set top box. If DVB-T2 can match that price point in 5 years then the Irish consumer will have more choice.

Perhaps we should revisit all DVB-T2 discssions in 2015, stop hijacking threads relevant to Ireland only and knock it on the head for now.

slegs

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

You should read what is written in the above post carefully. Only one T2 mux for DSO but likely all future muxes to be T2 for economic efficiency and spectrum efficiency reasons.

So you are suggesting this by when? All future new MUXES or migration of current MPEG2/DVB-T Muxes? You will have to be more precise.

The Cush

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Only one T2 mux for DSO but likely all future muxes to be T2 for economic efficiency and spectrum efficiency reasons.

Yes I would have agree with you there, the gains for the UK converting over from T1/MPEG2 to T2/MPEG-4 will add to efficiencies in spectrum and economics. I could see this as a requirement for the new 7/8th muxes. Conversion of the existing MPEG-2 muxes will take much longer imo due to the amount of legacy equipment out there.

Can't see the "RTÉ mux" in NI using it though as they will want to make it available to as many viewers as possible.

Did you find the link to the BBC distribution presentation on the migration to T2 of all multiplexes you mentioned earlier?

mrdtv2010

The Cush wrote: »

Yes I would have agree with you there, the gains for the UK converting over from T1/MPEG2 to T2/MPEG-4 will add to efficiencies in spectrum and economics. I could see this as a requirement for the new 7/8th muxes. Conversion of the existing MPEG-2 muxes will take much longer imo due to the amount of legacy equipment out there.

Can't see the "RTÉ mux" in NI using it though as they will want to make it available to as many viewers as possible.

Did you find the link to the BBC distribution presentation on the migration to T2 of all multiplexes you mentioned earlier?

Here's one from last year before decisions were made on the mode, the general thinking and availability of consumer receivers (yes, I do have one now.) There are other BBC presentations too.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/presentations/pdffiles/t2-dvb-world-gp-03-09-ppt.pdf

When the Ofcom decision is made about Sky wholesale pricing in March, many people think Picnic will be authorised provided it uses T2 as a quid pro quo. Classic Ofcom manipulation. The main question about any RTE NI mux, apart from spectrum availability, is 'who's going to pick up the capex and opex tab?'

Spectrally there is no question: DVB-T1 is 3 b/s/MHz vs 5b/s/Mhz for DVB-T2.