Are our toll roads signed properly?

etchyed

Although signage on motorways has improved immensely recently, signs like the one above bother me. What the sign tells you is that you're travelling on the national primary route from Dublin to Cork, but to remain on this road you'll have to pay a toll. To avoid the toll you can take the next exit onto something called the R639.

Not being a road geek, and not having checked a map (in the reasonable expectation that the Dublin-Cork road will be signed Cork all the way) you are left with only one option - pay the toll. Because the former N8 has been renumbered obscurely as R639 (a number even road geeks would surely have difficulty remembering) and because there's a policy of only signing the next town on R-roads, you need to be familiar with all of the towns along the way to Cork in order to get there without paying a toll.

Surely one of the main principles in allowing private companies to charge for our interurban road network is that it's possible to avoid the charges by travelling on an alternative - albeit lower quality - route. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect in that case that the route should be signposted. I realise there are probably a few straggling green Cork signs on the now-R639 but under current policy they'll be gone eventually.

Just as a side note, would it not have been possible to number former N-routes a little more logically, e.g. R901 for Belfast, R902 for Derry etc?

Chris_5339762

TBH its as bad as the complete and total lack of "non motorway traffic" direction signage that we have.

Zoney

Don't worry, the old "R" roads still have all that N road signage on them complete with Dublin etc.!

OK, I jest, yes, the OP has a point.

I wonder if there is any European legislation that would apply?

etchyed

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

TBH its as bad as the complete and total lack of "non motorway traffic" direction signage that we have.

I completely agree. Current policy seems to be:

• Classify all of the MIU network as motorway
• Reclassify old N-roads as regional
• Only sign next destination on R roads

These three rules do not work together in terms of alternative route signage and this should have been dealt with long before all these new motorways were built.

Amtmann

I agree with the OP - but what is the policy in other countries? Certainly in Germany the Landstrassen (major non-motorway routes) don't seem to show 'alternative route' signs either, at least not in Franconia, where I've done quite a lot of driving.

etchyed

AFAIK in France, both motorway and non-motorway routes are signed and the non-motorway route remains N, signed in green (France also uses N and R and the same colours as us).

Signposting alternative routes for all motorways is ideally what should happen but at the very least there should be alternative route signage for tolled motorways.

Victor

etchyed wrote: »

Not being a road geek, and not having checked a map (in the reasonable expectation that the Dublin-Cork road will be signed Cork all the way) you are left with only one option - pay the toll.

Why not buy a map or even use one of the journey planning services on the web that allow you to avoid tolls?

www.viamichelin.com
www.aaroadwatch.ie EDIT AAroadwath seems to only allow you avoid motorways and then only on their classic journey planner.

hi5

But they want you to pay the tolls!

I keep my Garmin sat nav on "avoid tolls" setting at all times,it hasnt let me down yet.I sometimes have to pay the commercial rate on my pickup truck at tolls, so what I save can pay for a cup of coffee and a sandwich.

L1011

The M4 and M6 toll schemes have brown "alternate route for..." signs with all the intermediate towns and villages bypassed by the toll scheme but, IIRC, not the final destination of the road. I've not seen these on the M1 or M8; the M50/DPT/EastLink don't really need them; and I've never taken the N25 from an approach that'd need them either (it would on the N25 east-west and west-east but not coming off the M9/N24).

wellbutty

etchyed wrote: »

AFAIK in France, both motorway and non-motorway routes are signed and the non-motorway route remains N, signed in green (France also uses N and R and the same colours as us).

Signposting alternative routes for all motorways is ideally what should happen but at the very least there should be alternative route signage for tolled motorways.

Youre right on that, in France the non-motorway is always shown in green.

BluntGuy

MYOB wrote: »

I've not seen these on the M1 or M8

One is put on the M8 before the toll section.

And "Cork" going southbound is signed on the R639, so in that case the alternative route is pretty clear.

etchyed

Victor wrote: »

Why not buy a map or even use one of the journey planning services on the web that allow you to avoid tolls?

www.viamichelin.com
www.aaroadwatch.ie EDIT AAroadwath seems to only allow you avoid motorways and then only on their classic journey planner.

That's entirely missing the point. I'm not talking about myself personally. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to expect the non-toll route to be signed.

Del2005

BluntGuy wrote: »

One is put on the M8 before the toll section.

And "Cork" going southbound is signed on the R639, so in that case the alternative route is pretty clear.

The sign in the OP doesn't have Cork mentioned anywhere on the R639 section which is what you see when you are on the motorway, which is what the OP is saying. You need to know that the R639 will get you to Cork, but you only find this out when you take the R639 not when you are driving on main the Dublin-Cork road which is tolled.

etchyed

BluntGuy wrote: »

One is put on the M8 before the toll section.

And "Cork" going southbound is signed on the R639, so in that case the alternative route is pretty clear.

Just to be clear, as I haven't actually been there, is Cork signed on old N8 signs (green) or new R639 signs (white)? Because if it's the latter I'll admit that the entire basis of this thread is false and it's a big waste of time. Provided of course that's what's happening on all the other former N-roads too.

Amtmann

etchyed wrote: »

Just to be clear, as I haven't actually been there, is Cork signed on old N8 signs (green) or new R639 signs (white)? Because if it's the latter I'll admit that the entire basis of this thread is false and it's a big waste of time. Provided of course that's what's happening on all the other former N-roads too.

It's a bit higgeldy-piggeldy at the moment, as re-signing is ongoing. But let's look at a section of M8 where the former N8 has been downgraded to R639 and re-signed white between Cullahill and Cashel. On the white signs Dublin and Cork are clearly signed. You can see pictures of these signs here. I would imagine that the same will happen on other sections once the new signage, which has likely been fabricated, is installed between Cahir and Mitchelstown, and between Mitchelstown and Fermoy.

etchyed

Furet wrote: »

It's a bit higgeldy-piggeldy at the moment, as re-signing is ongoing. But let's look at a section of M8 where the former N8 has been downgraded to R639 and re-signed white between Cullahill and Cashel. On the white signs Dublin and Cork are clearly signed. You can see pictures of these signs here. I would imagine that the same will happen on other sections once the new signage, which has likely been fabricated, is installed between Cahir and Mitchelstown, and between Mitchelstown and Fermoy.

All of those signs only make reference to Cork and Dublin when they're directing people on to the motorway. I'd like to know whether there's a sign anywhere on the R639 that gives people a choice between

DUBLIN (M8) [Toll]
and
DUBLIN R639.

Or for that matter a similar sign on any alternative route to a tolled road anywhere in the country.

etchyed

Sorry to harp on about this but let me make myself clear. I have no problem with the signs Furet posted pictures of above. They send cars onto a non-tolled section of the M8. Of course signs on regional roads should divert long-distance traffic onto main roads.

I also have no problem with what are generally low tolls (€1.90) helping to pay for the motorway network. I would pay them myself. I feel a bit of an idiot for starting a thread on this not having been on the roads in question and therefore having to rely on the accounts of others.

BUT where a road is tolled there should be a clearly signposted alternative. I don't see how that's a contentious point. And it's a point I haven't seen made here before so I thought it was worth posting.

veryangryman

etchyed wrote: »

Sorry to harp on about this but let me make myself clear. I have no problem with the signs Furet posted pictures of above. They send cars onto a non-tolled section of the M8. Of course signs on regional roads should divert long-distance traffic onto main roads.

I also have no problem with what are generally low tolls (€1.90) helping to pay for the motorway network. I would pay them myself. I feel a bit of an idiot for starting a thread on this not having been on the roads in question and therefore having to rely on the accounts of others.

BUT where a road is tolled there should be a clearly signposted alternative. I don't see how that's a contentious point. And it's a point I haven't seen made here before so I thought it was worth posting.

+1

Although its not a good idea to encourage people onto a lower quality road for long distance journeys (safety considerations etc), there should always be a clearly signposted alternative for toll dodgers to that the toll is optional, even to tourusts who dont know the roads well

nordydan

I posted a while back that the replaced road should assume the R number of the motorway e.g. R132 becomes R001, with the terminal destination stated (e.g Belfast, Sligo etc) and a small bolt on sign similar to the Euroroute sign indicating that it was a road used by restricted traffic, something like this (rough example):

motorway_sign_sm.gif

There is no need to sign "non-motorway traffic" IMO. People should know the rules of the road, and signs state the exceptions.