Worrying trend.

esio trot

I don't mean to go off on a rant here, but has anyone else noticed the lack of tries scored by Ireland in the past year. This is not my only worry however as the few times we have crossed the whitewash the scores have left much to be desired. It seems to me that we are not utilizing a world class back line and without trying to lay the blame here I believe slow balls from rucks is the problem, namely due to TOL's geriatric passing. When he is not waiting for what seems eons to give a pass which is much too deep he gives away possession by aimlessly box kicking. While I do realise that he cannot be blamed for every occasion where the ball is not recycled fast enough, as this part of the back rows job, he just does not seem to be able to get the boys out wide moving and I cannot understand why Kidney persists in playing him. It is not that I don't trust Kidneys judgement it's just starting to get frustrating watching us try to barge over from 5 metres with a standing start.

chupacabra

Its the way rugby has gone in general. There is so little space on the field these days that making a break is very hard. Its all to do with the breakdown laws decreasing the number of players committed to a ruck allowing there to be more defenders out wide. Its become incredibly hard to try and create mismatches in the midfield due to the fact that defenses can organize more quickly without having to worry about the breakdown, add to that the fact that forwards tend to be more athletic and dynamic these days than they used to be and it gets very hard to open up the defensive line with straight running. Some teams are better at unlocking defenses than others and in that regard i agree that Ireland have shown very little imagination in the recent past. TOL doesn't help the situation by kicking everything away and standing around the breakdown taking ages to get the ball out either.

CoDy1

Worrying trend???

Ireland won the Grand slam last year, scored 12 tries and O'Leary played 4/5 games.

Unbeaten in Autumn tests, scored 7 tries and O'Leary played 2/3 games.

Ffs sake lads, bit of perspective, we lost to france.

Does this worrying trend come from 1 match?

esio trot

It doesn't come from one match it is something that has been on my mind for a while. For instance how many of the tries we scored last year came from worked moves, the majority were intercepts or bowled over from the 5 metre line. It is a waste considering the attacking power we have. I don't care if we win ugly but i do care if we are just going to use our forwards as battering rams and leave our backs to kick the ball into oblivion.

danthefan

CoDy1 wrote: »

Worrying trend???

Ireland won the Grand slam last year, scored 12 tries and O'Leary played 4/5 games.

Unbeaten in Autumn tests, scored 7 tries and O'Leary played 2/3 games.

Ffs sake lads, bit of perspective, we lost to france.

Does this worrying trend come from 1 match?

We didn't play good rugby last season against Italy, England, Scotland or Wales though, or South Africa, or Italy or France this year. We just did not play expansive rugby, anyone who watched the games would see this, our winning margins were all very small, and the stats showed we kicked more than any team in the 6N. We played winning rugby, but not particularly good rugby.

CoDy1

I wouldn't call it worrying in fairness though, we have never been able to run tries in like the All Blacks so to speak. We have always scored from push-overs, intercepts and many impressive set-pieces too. We utilize our backs in getting us accross the gain line and putting us in to better scoring positions.

Our world class back line don't have to score world class tries!

danthefan

CoDy1 wrote: »

I wouldn't call it worrying in fairness though, we have never been able to run tries in like the All Blacks so to speak. We have always scored from push-overs, intercepts and many impressive set-pieces too. We utilize our backs in getting us accross the gain line and putting us in to better scoring positions.

Our world class back line don't have to score world class tries!

Some tries would be nice though. The last 3 games Ireland have played, TOL is the only back who has scored, and that could hardly be called a backs try,

FridaysWell

OP you gotta point. Kick less, get a better scrum half in there, quicker ball, (Strings or Reddan or Boss), pass more, be expansive and adventureous.

When we pass the ball with pace out wide, we score more. Simple.

Most of the time....

phog

danthefan wrote: »

Some tries would be nice though. The last 3 games Ireland have played, TOL is the only back who has scored, and that could hardly be called a backs try,

Yeah but on the other hand you could class Heaslips try as being a back try so they may balance themselves out.

PhatPiggins

esio trot wrote: »

It doesn't come from one match it is something that has been on my mind for a while. For instance how many of the tries we scored last year came from worked moves, the majority were intercepts or bowled over from the 5 metre line. It is a waste considering the attacking power we have. I don't care if we win ugly but i do care if we are just going to use our forwards as battering rams and leave our backs to kick the ball into oblivion.

The Grand Slam had to be won at any cost last season. Anyway,anyhow any rugby. We had to get that monkey off our back. I fully expect Ireland to be playing a more expansive brand of rugby come the end of the season. You could see in the first 2 AI's that they were trying more of the classic Gaffney moves. The first half against Italy should have led to a pletora of tries in the second half and even the opening 15 minutes against France contained an encouraging mix of kicking and running rugby.

Be patient it'll come

profitius

Ireland didn't play great last season when we won the grand slam. We nearly blew the lead against Wales and struggled away to Scotland. Beat an average England team by 1 pt.

I'd prefer winning rugby to more open attacking rugby.

Podge_irl

profitius wrote: »

I'd prefer winning rugby to more open attacking rugby.

I'm pretty sure everyone would. But Ireland aren't going to remain consistently successful playing like that, if the France game showed nothing else it showed that.

2040

I'd imagine Kidney fully intends to play a more expansive game. Before the France game and even last year he was talking about leaving more up to the players, for them to play more spontaneous rugby. I think the France game showed they weren't ready for that yet. They were too used to a structured game plan and weren't ready for heads up rugby.

I believe we're going through a brief transitional period. Hopefully we'll get there.

corny

Our inability to generate fast ruck ball through a couple of phases is killing our back play. The opposition have so much time to line us up in midfield even our 'world class' backline don't stand a chance. For me, there just doesn't seem to be an emphasis there. After one phase we either kick from the base or slow it down by keeping it tight around the fringes(to then box kick!). Seems to be the collective will and not just TOL's fault. It has proved effective for Kidney so far but (not directed at the op) lose one or two games and the knifes will be out. If Deccie keeps us winning though and proves Paris was just a blip i really don't care how we play tbh.

profitius

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm pretty sure everyone would. But Ireland aren't going to remain consistently successful playing like that, if the France game showed nothing else it showed that.

I agree. They'll have to improve the quality of performance to compete with the top teams especially in the world cup.

Riskymove

danthefan wrote: »

We played winning rugby, but not particularly good rugby.

absolutely, we did not run riot but on the other hand conceded very few tries

as I mentioned before our Grand slam is predominantly down to the tries scored by BOD in tight games....think of the tries he scored against england and wales in particular

we had a few years of playing attacking rugby and getting a few great days (Irl 43-13 England!!!)...but....no Championships

I'll settle for a couple of ugly championship winning years...ask any Chelsea fan!!

danthefan

Riskymove wrote: »

absolutely, we did not run riot but on the other hand conceded very few tries

as I mentioned before our Grand slam is predominantly down to the tries scored by BOD in tight games....think of the tries he scored against england and wales in particular

we had a few years of playing attacking rugby and getting a few great days (Irl 43-13 England!!!)...but....no Championships

I'll settle for a couple of ugly championship winning years...ask any Chelsea fan!!

The problem arises though when you play crap rugby and get hammered. The way we play at the moment gave us little or no chance of coming back from the lead France built up over us for example.

Riskymove

danthefan wrote: »

The problem arises though when you play crap rugby and get hammered. The way we play at the moment gave us little or no chance of coming back from the lead France built up over us for example.

yes but again its one game and hardly a crisis, a number of things converged with injuries, yellow card etc which really put us off track and we never really recovered.

we did score a try against France and 9 times out of ten D'Arcy would have got a bit of luck and the game would have looked a bit different...even if we still lost in Paris, many would be happy with getting a couple of tries there

you can also think about the time in Paris when we were absolutely hammered in the first half yet almost made one of the most amazing comebacks of all time.

Yes the fact that we were then playing attacking rugby allowed us the chance to attempt that comeback, but also was a reason for being hammered in the first place.

Co45

Riskymove wrote: »

Yes the fact that we were then playing attacking rugby allowed us the chance to attempt that comeback, but also was a reason for being hammered in the first place.

Not in that instance. It was down to momentary lapses of concentration and brain farts that led to the French putting so many points on us in the opening quarter, not because Ireland were playing expansive rugby.

esio trot

esio trot wrote: »

I don't mean to go off on a rant here, but has anyone else noticed the lack of tries scored by Ireland in the past year. This is not my only worry however as the few times we have crossed the whitewash the scores have left much to be desired. It seems to me that we are not utilizing a world class back line and without trying to lay the blame here I believe slow balls from rucks is the problem, namely due to TOL's geriatric passing. When he is not waiting for what seems eons to give a pass which is much too deep he gives away possession by aimlessly box kicking. While I do realise that he cannot be blamed for every occasion where the ball is not recycled fast enough, as this part of the back rows job, he just does not seem to be able to get the boys out wide moving and I cannot understand why Kidney persists in playing him. It is not that I don't trust Kidneys judgement it's just starting to get frustrating watching us try to barge over from 5 metres with a standing start.

Agree completely.
This is why I didnt want Kidney appointed and wanted a SH coach,its a pity Cheika didnt win the Heineken the year before,he would have been a great Ireland coach imo.

Kidney talks a great game about wanting the players to play a bit of rugby but I have yet to see it.

BoarHunter

I have to say that would require a revolution from the base to put an expensive type of game in place.

Ireland have the players to do it but their Education background prevent them from creating ...

these players look like they have been given the stick every time they wanted to take a gap from early age.

you need to allow the children to enjoy themseves, make mistakes but leave them the initiative of the game. As long as your buddies are here in support you get some ground.

In the irish game everything looks so complicated, tortured. Defense as a way of life, as if they had a complex of inferiority. They can't deal with ball possession . Somewhat the antichrist of All black rugby.

get out there and take the risk of getting intercepted or countered !

What do you prefer ? the 43-31 defeat in Paris or last week end one with a sloppy forward pass try ?

BoarHunter

BoarHunter wrote: »

I have to say that would require a revolution from the base to put an expensive type of game in place.

Ireland have the players to do it but their Education background prevent them from creating ...

these players look like they have been given the stick every time they wanted to take a gap from early age.

you need to allow the children to enjoy themseves, make mistakes but leave them the initiative of the game. As long as your buddies are here in support you get some ground.

In the irish game everything looks so complicated, tortured. Defense as a way of life, as if they had a complex of inferiority. They can't deal with ball possession . Somewhat the antichrist of All black rugby.

get out there and take the risk of getting intercepted or countered !

What do you prefer ? the 43-31 defeat in Paris or last week end one with a sloppy forward pass try ?

What?

BoarHunter

Well in the 43-31 match there was some game. Ireland decided to play out wide and nailed 4 tries in 20 minutes. They were beaten on the day becasue of some silly errors but atleast they had nothing to regret.

Last week end, they looked liked they were scared to play in fearness. Even against Italy they were kicking possession away.

Would be better to take more risks and take the initiative of the game.

Dravokivich

CoDy1 wrote: »

Worrying trend???

Ireland won the Grand slam last year, scored 12 tries and O'Leary played 4/5 games.

Unbeaten in Autumn tests, scored 7 tries and O'Leary played 2/3 games.

Ffs sake lads, bit of perspective, we lost to france.

Does this worrying trend come from 1 match?

I don't think he's talking about losing...
There's been plently of games over the last year, where the scores where all just penalties on both sides...

poncho000

by the time ireland start playing expansive rugby our world class backline will have retired

twinytwo

Kristopher Rancid Goose wrote: »

Agree completely.
This is why I didnt want Kidney appointed and wanted a SH coach,its a pity Cheika didnt win the Heineken the year before,he would have been a great Ireland coach imo.

Kidney talks a great game about wanting the players to play a bit of rugby but I have yet to see it.

Your having a laugh

anonymous_joe

twinytwo wrote: »

Your having a laugh

In fairness to Goose, I don't see him as being wrong there.

Kidney was not a bad appointment. (Understatement of the day really?)

But, and here's the big but. Under EOS, our big problem was not being able to get that extra 10% that wins tournaments. For every Triple Crown, there was a France game.

Given the resources we had, appointing a forwards oriented, conservative coach like Kidney could well be seen as a counter-intuitive move. A SH coach with an education in running rugby might have been able to get us winning by playing the same way we did under EOS. Moreover, the extra familiarity with the refs, styles and players of the SH teams would have stood us in good stead coming up to the 2011 World Cup.

So it's not foolish to state that appointing Kidney was only one option. And I mean, if Kidney hadn't been Irish, I'd reckon we'd have gone out and appointed a big name SH coach.

Though obviously I'm happy enough with how things have gone.

Spiritoftheseventies

esio trot wrote: »

I don't mean to go off on a rant here, but has anyone else noticed the lack of tries scored by Ireland in the past year. This is not my only worry however as the few times we have crossed the whitewash the scores have left much to be desired. It seems to me that we are not utilizing a world class back line and without trying to lay the blame here I believe slow balls from rucks is the problem, namely due to TOL's geriatric passing. When he is not waiting for what seems eons to give a pass which is much too deep he gives away possession by aimlessly box kicking. While I do realise that he cannot be blamed for every occasion where the ball is not recycled fast enough, as this part of the back rows job, he just does not seem to be able to get the boys out wide moving and I cannot understand why Kidney persists in playing him. It is not that I don't trust Kidneys judgement it's just starting to get frustrating watching us try to barge over from 5 metres with a standing start.

Agree there. Do you remember when England had that amazing back line that included Jeremy Gusott and Rory Underwood. They used to blitz teams. We should have won more than one grand slam at this stage.

twinytwo

twinytwo wrote: »

Your having a laugh

Why do you say that?

You know I cant stand boring rugby,I watch rugby for enjoyment and I do not get enjoyment out of ****e rugby.
I would be in the Arsenal school of thought,I would prefer to lose playing good rugby than win playing crap.

Kidney plays crap rugby and Cheika does not,quite simple really.
We could have won the grandslam playing expansive but we chose not to,running rugby does not mean losing rugby.

The best match I have seen from this ireland team was France last year and even if we had lost I would still say it was the best.

Spiritoftheseventies

He won us the grand slam first time of asking. Need we say more.

sock puppet

Kristopher Rancid Goose wrote: »

Why do you say that?

You know I cant stand boring rugby,I watch rugby for enjoyment and I do not get enjoyment out of ****e rugby.
I would be in the Arsenal school of thought,I would prefer to lose playing good rugby than win playing crap.

Kidney plays crap rugby and Cheika does not,quite simple really.
We could have won the grandslam playing expansive but we chose not to,running rugby does not mean losing rugby.

The best match I have seen from this ireland team was France last year and even if we had lost I would still say it was the best.

I think that's pushing it a bit. In the Magners League the Leinster backs haven't really got going all season. Only Connacht have scored less tries than us.

twinytwo

Fake Locke wrote: »

Agree there. Do you remember when England had that amazing back line that included Jeremy Gusott and Rory Underwood. They used to blitz teams. We should have won more than one grand slam at this stage.

Kristopher Rancid Goose wrote: »

Why do you say that?

You know I cant stand boring rugby,I watch rugby for enjoyment and I do not get enjoyment out of ****e rugby.
I would be in the Arsenal school of thought,I would prefer to lose playing good rugby than win playing crap.

Kidney plays crap rugby and Cheika does not,quite simple really.
We could have won the grandslam playing expansive but we chose not to,running rugby does not mean losing rugby.

The best match I have seen from this ireland team was France last year and even if we had lost I would still say it was the best.

firstly do you not think that for Cheika a major factor in leinster winning the HC was because Kidney had left munster.. Crap rugby does not win two hc's and keep munster top ranked team in europe for 4 years in a row?

And you honestly think he would do a better job with the Ireland team?
Kidney did what he had to do to win a Gs and go undefeated for 15 months.

Co45

twinytwo wrote: »

firstly do you not think that for Cheika a major factor in leinster winning the HC was because Kidney had left munster..

Thats a bit unfair. The only major factor in Leinster winning the Heineken Cup was their astounding performances against Munster and Leicester. Leinster's win over Munster that day was not down to bad management on McGahan's part it was down to one of the most passion inspired performances we have ever seen from Leinster where leaders like O'Driscoll, Elsom, Cullen and Heaslip stood up and fought for their lives.
Don't try cheapen it.