Help me to be better than I am

LegacyUser

Hi,
I'm a man in his mid thirties and I just would like some tips on how to be more manly. I have a lot of friends, many female but I constantly find myself in the dreaded friendzone. I've learned my lesson somewhat and over the past few months even managed to let most of these friends know I fancied them. Nothing happened, generally they had known, said they weren't interested in it going any further. I valued them as friends and they me so we still are. I know now to not let that happen anymore and from now on I think I have the confidence to make a move or ask a girl out if I start fancying her and before we become friends. I do not think I fall under that heading 'nice' guy, you know, the passive aggressive, insecure guy with no confidence who likes to hide under that title.
I'm pretty sure I was like that once but I have changed myself, I have so many more friends, go out all the time, way more confident that I used to be. I am still a little insecure at times and I still haven't managed to make myself approach women I don't already know through someone else when I'm out.
I just feel like a lot of women still consider me to be that 'nice' guy, they think I'd be a pushover. I really don't think I would be myself but I don't know how to convey this. I want to be able to convey that I am a man, one who is confident, not so insecure anymore, one that women, at least some, want. I keep myself in decent shape, I've been told I'm good looking and by more than my mum.
I hate the whole pick up artist thing so please don't tell me to go for that. After years and years of reading self help books, going to see a counselor, making myself constantly step out of my comfort zone I feel like I am just on the cusp of getting this right or even just a little more right than I used to. I also know there is no real right or wrong cause there are so many variables and no two women are the same.
There, it's not the worst personal issue in the world and I know many have worse problems but I would love if anyone had any tips. Thanks.

mood

Have you asked a number of your female friends? Do all these women know each other? If they do I would think this is why you keep getting knocked back. What woman wants to go out with a guy how asked friend x out two months ago, friend y out a few weeks later, then tried to kiss friend z last week! Maybe this is not the case but it sounds like it. If this is what has been going on it looks like you want ANY woman not the one you as asking out at that particular time.

LegacyUser

Ha, yeah, some know each other but there's been weeks in between me asking. Mainly I just did the asking as a way for me to bring those crushes to a close. I let so many go down the years without even trying that I decided I didn't want any regrets anymore. I know not to let these crushes happen anymore. There was a time I'd let one go for months, years even without trying. Not anymore, even if I crash and burn I will try.
Anyway that's all finished now so it's tips on how to do better from now on I'm looking for.

LegacyUser

mood wrote: »

Have you asked a number of your female friends? Do all these women know each other? If they do I would think this is why you keep getting knocked back. What woman wants to go out with a guy how asked friend x out two months ago, friend y out a few weeks later, then tried to kiss friend z last week! Maybe this is not the case but it sounds like it. If this is what has been going on it looks like you want ANY woman not the one you as asking out at that particular time.

You might have a point there with the ANY woman part. I don't know if I want to jump straight into a relationship, maybe with those women I had crushes on I would have cause I'd let myself like them a lot. Really I'd just like to stop these crushes from here on and start having some fun. I feel like I've never really enjoyed being single properly. I had a little luck in my 20's but here I am in my mid 30's and I haven't had sex in over four years.

There has to be a way for me to do better without turning into a horrible arrogant a-hole. Or is the fact that I sort of just want to have some fun make me an a-hole already? I don't want to mess anyone around, I just want to enjoy my life more. Like the Friends song goes 'my love life's D.O.A.'.

LegacyUser

If you act like the nice guy then yes, women will want to be your friend. You need to be a little more cocky and confident, like you said. Women are more likely to want you if they're not entirely sure whether you want them or not, or if they can't figure you out. Being really nice and actually telling girls that you're interested in them is the worst thing you can possibly do. I know this because I'm a gay guy who has tons of friends that are girls and this is what I've been told or what I've picked up on. It's definitely a treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen situation.

cafecolour

If you meet a girl you're interested in, I'd ask her for a date straight out. You're probably trying to be friends first, which then leaves you in the friendzone in their mind.

LegacyUser

Do You have many male friends OP? Sounds like you have plenty of female ones but so many male ones. Correct me if Im wrong though. And did you have a strong male figure in the house when you were growing up or was it a house full of women?
Those could be factors right there. I mean we learn how to be men from our Fathers and our friends. Im not saying that just because you didnt have a strong male presence in the house or lots of male friends that youre a lost cause. You can turn things around but it would be easier for you if you had the company of other men. Being surrounded all the time by women sounds good on paper to every red blooded man out there but in reality I dont think its so good. Do you play any sports? Sports are a great way to hang out with other men and just be one of the lads. I think its healthy aswell. I mean you can get therapy til the cows come home but theres no subsitute for real world experiences.

LegacyUser

Yondar wrote: »

If you act like the nice guy then yes, women will want to be your friend. You need to be a little more cocky and confident, like you said. Women are more likely to want you if they're not entirely sure whether you want them or not, or if they can't figure you out. Being really nice and actually telling girls that you're interested in them is the worst thing you can possibly do. I know this because I'm a gay guy who has tons of friends that are girls and this is what I've been told or what I've picked up on. It's definitely a treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen situation.

Yeah, it's being a little cocky and confident I want to be. I want to be seen as a man not always as a friend. I'm just not sure how to do this.

LegacyUser

unreg2468 wrote: »

Do You have many male friends OP? Sounds like you have plenty of female ones but so many male ones. Correct me if Im wrong though. And did you have a strong male figure in the house when you were growing up or was it a house full of women?
Those could be factors right there. I mean we learn how to be men from our Fathers and our friends. Im not saying that just because you didnt have a strong male presence in the house or lots of male friends that youre a lost cause. You can turn things around but it would be easier for you if you had the company of other men. Being surrounded all the time by women sounds good on paper to every red blooded man out there but in reality I dont think its so good. Do you play any sports? Sports are a great way to hang out with other men and just be one of the lads. I think its healthy aswell. I mean you can get therapy til the cows come home but theres no subsitute for real world experiences.

Very interesting. I never thought of this.
Growing up I guess I pretty much was mainly around women. Most of my closest friends are guys but they're nearly all as bad if not worse than me. I've never been a blokey bloke. Is that what I have to be? Damn. You see I really hate sports and I mean really. Always have, no interest in watching it or playing it. I'm a geek so it's always been books, video games and films that I've been interested in. I could never really hang around with guys who're big into sports and that cause I don't get it.
Thanks.

LegacyUser

cafecolour wrote: »

If you meet a girl you're interested in, I'd ask her for a date straight out. You're probably trying to be friends first, which then leaves you in the friendzone in their mind.

Yes, that has been my past but I don't want to be like that anymore. The only annoying thing with me is it often happens that I don't realize if I fancy someone until I've gotten to know them and by then I'm in the friendzone.

mood

Yondar wrote: »

If you act like the nice guy then yes, women will want to be your friend. You need to be a little more cocky and confident, like you said. Women are more likely to want you if they're not entirely sure whether you want them or not, or if they can't figure you out. Being really nice and actually telling girls that you're interested in them is the worst thing you can possibly do. I know this because I'm a gay guy who has tons of friends that are girls and this is what I've been told or what I've picked up on. It's definitely a treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen situation.

I personally don't agree. And I'm female!

Tmeos

Hi OP, from your post it seems that you definitely are moving in the right direction and it's great that you have the confidence now to ask the questions because thats probably the hardest part.

Personally I don't think the 'friendzone' is as much of an issue as people make it out to be, most of my relationships have come out of friendships, if you think about it if you fancy someone then how is finding out that you get on well and share a sense of humor etc. going to put you off them really?

I think a big draw for women is unavailability, so like a poster mentioned above if these women know you asked out another friend two weeks ago and another a few weeks before then I don't think that's going to make them feel like you're really into them, just into finding someone.

My advise is to make yourself a bit more unavailable to the women you are attracted to, maybe don't be around every time they want to meet up and make sure you don't complain about your problems meeting someone to anyone you find remotely attractive. Maybe line up a few dates online and drop these into conversation when they ask to meet up. I think when you start dating someone you'll suddenly find that your unavailability makes you a more attractive prospect for women you are friends with.

Women eh? Best of luck with it, I'm sure you'll find the right girl.

LostinKildare

Almost there wrote: »

Very interesting. I never thought of this.
Growing up I guess I pretty much was mainly around women. Most of my closest friends are guys but they're nearly all as bad if not worse than me. I've never been a blokey bloke. Is that what I have to be? Damn. You see I really hate sports and I mean really. Always have, no interest in watching it or playing it. I'm a geek so it's always been books, video games and films that I've been interested in. I could never really hang around with guys who're big into sports and that cause I don't get it.
Thanks.

OP, you sound like a great catch to me. Don't try to change yourself, it will seem false and it'll be hard to maintain the pretense. There certainly are women who are attracted to geeky sports-hating guys. Maybe you've just been looking in the wrong places? Join any kind of group that focuses on your interests (like a film club or a language class, for example) and you will broaden your circle of like-minded people of both sexes.

If you are looking for a woman around your same age, mid-thirties, you will be fine. By that time we've grown up a bit and are past that phase of chasing after bad boys and other silly games that often end in tears. Forget the notion of the friend zone, that's for kids. Be yourself and someone will appreciate you for the gem that you are.

LegacyUser

mood wrote: »

I personally don't agree. And I'm female!

Okay so let me get this straight - you'd be more interested in a guy who's really nice, agrees with you all the time, acts all eager and tells you outright he really likes you? You'd rather that than a guy who's confident in himself and can challenge you on different levels? Attraction meant tension and mystery the last time I checked, not here-I-am-on-a-platter.

When I say treat 'em mean keep 'em keen, I don't mean guys should treat women disrespectfully. I'm just saying that every time I've seen a guy ruin his chances with a girl it's because he came on too strong and gave away too much too early.

I'd also like to add that being more confident and cocky does not mean that you have to change who you are. In fact it means you accept yourself more, you put yourself on a pedestal rather than people who don't deserve it. If you outright tell someone that you like them and want to be with them, you're giving them all the power to either accept or reject you. That's not a sign of confidence, it's a sign of insecurity and needing validation. Of course there is a time for this when making things official etc. but I'm talking about the early stages of seeing somebody.

Hope I'm making sense. It's easy to be confident, all it takes is knowing your own worth, cutting yourself a little slack and bigging yourself up a little bit. Call it vanity if you want but it's a lot better to love yourself than to be self-depreciating. Fact.

mood

I meant that I don't like the 'treat them mean keep them keen' and game playing. There is a big different between being confidence and cocky.

LegacyUser

Yondar wrote: »

Okay so let me get this straight - you'd be more interested in a guy who's really nice, agrees with you all the time, acts all eager and tells you outright he really likes you? You'd rather that than a guy who's confident in himself and can challenge you on different levels? Attraction meant tension and mystery the last time I checked, not here-I-am-on-a-platter.

When I say treat 'em mean keep 'em keen, I don't mean guys should treat women disrespectfully. I'm just saying that every time I've seen a guy ruin his chances with a girl it's because he came on too strong and gave away too much too early.

I'd also like to add that being more confident and cocky does not mean that you have to change who you are. In fact it means you accept yourself more, you put yourself on a pedestal rather than people who don't deserve it. If you outright tell someone that you like them and want to be with them, you're giving them all the power to either accept or reject you. That's not a sign of confidence, it's a sign of insecurity and needing validation. Of course there is a time for this when making things official etc. but I'm talking about the early stages of seeing somebody.

Hope I'm making sense. It's easy to be confident, all it takes is knowing your own worth, cutting yourself a little slack and bigging yourself up a little bit. Call it vanity if you want but it's a lot better to love yourself than to be self-depreciating. Fact.

Thanks for all the replies.
Ok, well I do pretty much give everything away, I've never been good at being mysterious but I would like to learn that. I do act a little eager and come out and say that I like someone. I don't agree with everything though.
I am also very self deprecating. It's almost my thing, everyone's used to me making jokes at my own expense. Don't know how I'm going to change that as all my friends are so used to it.

LegacyUser

Almost there wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.
Ok, well I do pretty much give everything away, I've never been good at being mysterious but I would like to learn that. I do act a little eager and come out and say that I like someone. I don't agree with everything though.
I am also very self deprecating. It's almost my thing, everyone's used to me making jokes at my own expense. Don't know how I'm going to change that as all my friends are so used to it.

If you know what you're doing by making self-depreciating jokes and that's your thing then it's cool. If you'd rather not be making jokes at your own expense or if you're doing it out of nerves then you should practice cutting down, especially around women. You've mentioned already how you've grown out of an introverted shell already so I'm sure it won't be that difficult in small steps.

LegacyUser

Almost there wrote: »

Very interesting. I never thought of this.
Growing up I guess I pretty much was mainly around women. Most of my closest friends are guys but they're nearly all as bad if not worse than me. I've never been a blokey bloke. Is that what I have to be? Damn. You see I really hate sports and I mean really. Always have, no interest in watching it or playing it. I'm a geek so it's always been books, video games and films that I've been interested in. I could never really hang around with guys who're big into sports and that cause I don't get it.
Thanks.

No Im not saying you have to be a blokey bloke OP. If you dont like sports you dont like sports. Somebody already said it, but there are plenty of girls who like guys who arent into sports and are into art, films, music, books etc. But having said that I dont think the two are mutually exclusive. I love films, books, music, photography myself but I also love sports aswell. The point im making is, I think maybe youve cast yourself in a role i.e. the geek(your own words)and even if youre not aware of that, it will affect your interactions with women and people in general. Just because you like video games it dont make you less of a man than somebody who plays football.
From the sounds of things Op it seems like you second guess yourself a fair bit. Youre wondering what women find attractive or appealing: Treat 'em mean keep 'em keen or nice guys? But thats irrelevant. What women find attractive is irrelevant to what you do and they way you live your life. What Im saying is, stop trying to be what you think women (or anybody else)want you to be. And I dont mean be an asshole to women. Be a gentleman but not a pushover. I think the bottom line is live your life the way you see fit, when you do this that neediness or desire to please drops away.
Hope that makes sense.

gavney1

Almost there wrote: »

Yeah, it's being a little cocky and confident I want to be. I want to be seen as a man not always as a friend. I'm just not sure how to do this.

I think it's the famous fine line that exists between confidence and cockiness

You sound like a nice guy and first things first - you need to realise that fundamentally that's a positive and not something you need to change

You don't need to become a "bad boy", and you probably won't be able to cause you're just too naturally nice.



Bottom line: I don't think you need to focus on going from "nice" to "bad". Instead focus on going from "shy" to "confident"


You probably already realise this so apologies if I'm preaching to the choir!

LegacyUser

unreg2468 wrote: »

No Im not saying you have to be a blokey bloke OP. If you dont like sports you dont like sports. Somebody already said it, but there are plenty of girls who like guys who arent into sports and are into art, films, music, books etc. But having said that I dont think the two are mutually exclusive. I love films, books, music, photography myself but I also love sports aswell. The point im making is, I think maybe youve cast yourself in a role i.e. the geek(your own words)and even if youre not aware of that, it will affect your interactions with women and people in general. Just because you like video games it dont make you less of a man than somebody who plays football.
From the sounds of things Op it seems like you second guess yourself a fair bit. Youre wondering what women find attractive or appealing: Treat 'em mean keep 'em keen or nice guys? But thats irrelevant. What women find attractive is irrelevant to what you do and they way you live your life. What Im saying is, stop trying to be what you think women (or anybody else)want you to be. And I dont mean be an asshole to women. Be a gentleman but not a pushover. I think the bottom line is live your life the way you see fit, when you do this that neediness or desire to please drops away.
Hope that makes sense.

Yes, exactly!

LegacyUser

unreg2468 wrote: »

No Im not saying you have to be a blokey bloke OP. If you dont like sports you dont like sports. Somebody already said it, but there are plenty of girls who like guys who arent into sports and are into art, films, music, books etc. But having said that I dont think the two are mutually exclusive. I love films, books, music, photography myself but I also love sports aswell. The point im making is, I think maybe youve cast yourself in a role i.e. the geek(your own words)and even if youre not aware of that, it will affect your interactions with women and people in general. Just because you like video games it dont make you less of a man than somebody who plays football.
From the sounds of things Op it seems like you second guess yourself a fair bit. Youre wondering what women find attractive or appealing: Treat 'em mean keep 'em keen or nice guys? But thats irrelevant. What women find attractive is irrelevant to what you do and they way you live your life. What Im saying is, stop trying to be what you think women (or anybody else)want you to be. And I dont mean be an asshole to women. Be a gentleman but not a pushover. I think the bottom line is live your life the way you see fit, when you do this that neediness or desire to please drops away.
Hope that makes sense.

Thank you. Yes, that makes sense. I know liking movies etc. and liking sports are not mutually exclusive I just don't like them. I'm tried and I just don't. I have enough interests to take up my free time. I actually don't really play video games really since I got myself a social life.
I have been told before that sometimes I act like I have to prove I am a geek so I think I have cast myself in that role. I think I need to think of myself as a cool guy who happens to like geeky things instead of a guy who's cool because he likes geeky things. I think I often act like the latter which is silly.
I will work on being confident. I know I second guess myself a lot. I'm just so used to always making mistakes and that with women and other things that I generally expect to. Maybe I'm causing self fulfilling prophecies. I will do my best to change this.
I was out last night and just by telling myself to be more confident, I actually felt it. I'll try that again tonight.