Would 15,000 per annum justify a Diesel engine?

FGR

As above, really .

Would 15,000+ miles per annum justify the premium on a diesel engine?

EPM

Depends on how much extra buying the diesel will be

Anan1

It really depends on the actual petrol & diesel cars you're comparing. Sit down and work out the purchase/fuel/tax costs of both, factor in likely depreciation, and finally drive both to see which you prefer and by how much.

Cionád

and the size of the diesel engine...

and whether the car is pre/post 2008 motor tax changes...

and the MPG of the diesel and the alternative petrol...

FGR

Looking at buying a 1.6 tdi diesel Octavia. Contemplating whether it's worth the extra 3,000 to buy this over the 1.2 tsi engine. I'll probably be driving more than 15,000 miles pa so it's quite a conservative figure.

Hoping you can help.

2010 model.

Mr Benevolent

betafrog wrote: »

1.2!!! In a car of that size! Are you mad! That engine will drink fuel.

1.2 turbo supercharged (TSI). Not a regular 1.2.

bazz26

betafrog wrote: »

1.2!!! In a car of that size! Are you mad! That engine will drink fuel.

The 1.2 TSi has 105bhp which is the same as the 1.6 TDi but the TSi is over 1 second faster from 0 to 60.

Confab wrote: »

1.2 turbo supercharged (TSI). Not a regular 1.2.

The 1.2 TSi doesn't have a supercharger afaik.

Stevie Dakota

I think to much is made of having to do high miles to justify the expense of a diesel. Day to day lower running costs and the pleasure of plenty of torque and better performance justify the marginal increased cost. I do sub 10K a year in a diesel, and would have one even if I was doing half that.

FGR

That's right. They're both 105bhp.

62.8mpg combined for the 1.6tdi.

49.6mpg combined for the 1.2tsi.

I'm also factoring in the average 10 cents saving per litre of fuel, too.

BrianD3

Well its pretty easy to work out your yearly fuel cost (25000/100)*x*y where x is the quoted economy of the car in litres/100 km and y is the price of a litre of fuel. Do for petrol and diesel.

I think you will find it's a number of years before you make up the 3000 extra purchase price of the diesel. The again the diesel may be worth more when it comes to sell.

Maintenance, insurance and tax should be similar for both

samsemtex

BrianD3 wrote: »

Well its pretty easy to work out your yearly fuel cost (25000/100)*x*y where x is the quoted economy of the car in litres/100 km and y is the price of a litre of fuel. Do for petrol and diesel.

I think you will find it's a number of years before you make up the 3000 extra purchase price of the diesel. The again the diesel may be worth more when it comes to sell.

Maintenance, insurance and tax should be similar for both

Whats the 25,000/100 about? is that the miles per annum?

fletch

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I think to much is made of having to do high miles to justify the expense of a diesel. Day to day lower running costs and the pleasure of plenty of torque and better performance justify the marginal increased cost. I do sub 10K a year in a diesel, and would have one even if I was doing half that.

Agree, there is something quite enjoyable about only having to put fuel in my car once a month

Hagar

There was an article recently in Autoplus.fr that compared costs for equivalent petrol v. diesel over a 10 year life span doing the same milage (20km per year) and surprisingly the diesel lost by a good margin. :eek:

I accept that the figures in Ireland will be different but I suspect that they will be proportional so will be roughly valid. Factor in Road Tax based on higher engine capacity in Ireland and it tips further towards petrol.

The difference was mostly down to the following:

• Higher initial purchase price
• Higher insurance based on car value
• More frequent oil changes
• More frequent services
• Higher cost of services
• Higher wear on breaks therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)
• Higher wear on front suspension and steering therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)
• Higher wear on front tyres therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)

On purely financial grounds petrol was a better bet. Citing the few cents saved per litre is self deluding.

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

Citing the few cents saved per litre is self deluding.

So too thinking the performance is better, the torque makes you feel you are accelerating much quicker than you are. If the diesel is the same price as the equivalent petrol model or cheaper as with many new cars it may be cost effective. However a DMF or some injector trouble a few years down the line will eat into any savings.

I do enjoy driving a diesel though, I may well have another soon.

BennyBlanko

* Higher initial purchase price
* More frequent oil changes
* More frequent services
* Higher cost of services
* Higher wear on breaks therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)
* Higher wear on front suspension and steering therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)
* Higher wear on front tyres therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)

most of this is rubbish tbh, bar the first part re; initial outlay.

Hagar

BennyBlanko wrote: »

most of this is rubbish tbh, bar the first part re; initial outlay.

Exactly what is rubbish about it?

The outcome was a surprise to me too.

samsemtex

BennyBlanko wrote: »

* Higher initial purchase price
* More frequent oil changes
* More frequent services
* Higher cost of services
* Higher wear on breaks therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)
* Higher wear on front suspension and steering therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)
* Higher wear on front tyres therefore more frequent replacements (due to heavier engine)

most of this is rubbish tbh, bar the first part re; initial outlay.

Are you basing this on your own 10 year study and scientific analysis?

With modern semi syn and fully syn oils more frequent oil changes are probably not required, however the diesel filter will be changed more often, heater plugs canbe expensive too. Also the air filter will probably not last as long as on a petrol model. The extra weight of the engine could well wear tyres and suspension components quicker than on a petrol engined model.

Also the turbo, DMF and injection system are all potential money pits on many diesels. Of course on a petrol you have spark plugs, leads etc.

Stevie Dakota

RoverJames wrote: »

the torque makes you feel you are accelerating much quicker than you are.

I have owned a 2 litre petrol and I can assure you the in-gear acceleration advantage in the 2 litre TDCi is very real.

Stevie Dakota

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I have owned a 2 litre petrol and I can assure you the in-gear acceleration advantage in the 2 litre TDCi is very real.

Due to the torque the in gear will indeed be better on many diesels, however drop a cog in the petrol and use the full rev range and it's a different story is many cases. In gear acceleration is playing to the strengths of the diesel. The torque shove still makes you think you are going faster.

betafrog

betafrog wrote: »

Then it was a ****e 2 litre petrol engine. A 1.4 petrol golf has more power than a 2.0 TDi version...

Isn't the worst 2.0 diesel 105 bhp ? Unless you're on about the TSi or whatever its called I doubt you are correct. A 1.6 petrol VAG unit would be barely 100bhp.

betafrog

betafrog wrote: »

1.4 TSi = 144BHP

2.0 TDi = 140BHP

Now compare the bog standard 1.4 against the bogo diesel.

bladespin

Benefits that I see (I commute about 50 miles per day - 12k miles per year). Alfa 1.9 JTDm 150 bhp.

Diesel, currently €1.09 per liter, petrol €1.15
MPG, boringly I actually calculated my real MPG per week, 57mpg (the 318 was giving a guesstimated 30mpg (being very optimistic there)).
Driving about 30k km per year I'm using about 1200l diesel; €1308, to cover the same in the old car would have been 2840l; €3266.

Servicing, costs the same as my old petrol car, frequency is the same too.
I haven't noticed any more wear on the brakes etc, the glow plugs don't need changing anywhere near as often as spark plugs do.
Air filter and oil filter cost about the same, fuel filter (used this on the petrol car too) is actually about €5 dearer, lasts same time though.

My front tyres last longer than my rears (FWD), must be an Alfa thing.

betafrog

betafrog wrote: »

No one does bogo diesels anymore

Well.......

1.4 Golf Cl 80bhp petrol is available & a 1.6 Diesel 90bhp can be bought for €2000 more. They're bogo enough for me compared to what you listed.

Stevie Dakota

RoverJames wrote: »

Due to the torque the in gear will indeed be better on many diesels, however drop a cog in the petrol and use the full rev range and it's a different story is many cases. In gear acceleration is playing to the strengths of the diesel. The torque shove still makes you think you are going faster.

I guess therein lies the appeal of the diesel IMO, no need to drop a cog, rev the guts out it, watch the mpg go through the floor, just flex your right toe and you're off.

Very true

bladespin

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I guess therein lies the appeal of the diesel IMO, no need to drop a cog, rev the guts out it, watch the mpg go through the floor, just flex your right toe and you're off.

Worth noting that Diesels tend to be easier to drive on slippery roads (low revs), wouldn't normally be a strong point for me but in the past few months I've been grateful of it.

R.O.R

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I guess therein lies the appeal of the diesel IMO, no need to drop a cog, rev the guts out it, watch the mpg go through the floor, just flex your right toe and you're off.

Unless you are driving one of the new model, low CC diesels with a very narrow power band. In which case you have to drop a cog, find the small sweet spot, watch the MPG drop (ever so slightly), crap yourself that someone is about to smack in to the back of you, then eventually get back to a decent cruising speed.

All that said, I really can't see many people wanting to buy a 1.2 Petrol Octavia in a few years. The 1.6Tdi will have a market. The difference between fuel costs and resale value will probably make up for the difference in initial purchase price.

Hagar makes a few good points, but not all are correct. Servicing intervals are the same on the Petrol & Diesel Skoda's, but you will probably see higher tyre wear and higher servicing costs.

If the OP is making short stop/start journeys all the time they may also clog the DPF on the Diesel, making the petrol the better bet.

FGR

Thank you for all of the input guys. To answer R.O.R's query I'll mainly be doing a 100 mile commute 5 days a week (50 up, 50 down). It'll definitely work out at more than 15,000 miles pa but I wanted to see a diesel's worth with a conservative estimate.

I was surprised that the 1.2tsi could produce 105bhp - I'm wondering whether that engine would be able to cope with that kind of output in 5 years time.

That said - I'm still up for the Diesel. I want to keep this car for a good, long while. Additional Tyre wear won't bother me too much.

R.O.R

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Thank you for all of the input guys. To answer R.O.R's query I'll mainly be doing a 100 mile commute 5 days a week (50 up, 50 down). It'll definitely work out at more than 15,000 miles pa but I wanted to see a diesel's worth with a conservative estimate.

I was surprised that the 1.2tsi could produce 105bhp - I'm wondering whether that engine would be able to cope with that kind of output in 5 years time.

That said - I'm still up for the Diesel. I want to keep this car for a good, long while. Additional Tyre wear won't bother me too much.

Is it mainly motorway, or windy back roads?

I'm driving the Passat 1.6Tdi at the moment, and it's more or less perfect for the commute which is about 80% motorway or straight ish R road. Generally at a steady speed without having to accelerate or brake too much so I'm seeing fuel consumption figures of 4.7 - 5.2 l/100km. I'm doing 120km per day so it's about an hour each way. Apart from the seats, which I just can't quite get in to a really comfy position, it's a nice a comfortable car to drive and has enough performance for the daily grind up and down the M1 / M50.

If you have more stop / start than my journey, it might not be suitable because if you need acceleration (e.g. to overtake) it's just not there.

FGR

Sorry for taking to long to reply R.O.R - But I'll mainly be driving on the N25. Very little dual carriageway but 90% decent, straight road.

I'm thinking the 1.6tdi might still benefit me as surely the Octavia is lighter than a Passat? I'm asking that as I used to own a 1.4 (boggo 80bhp) petrol Golf MkV and tbh I don't know how I survived overtaking people in that car.

R.O.R

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Sorry for taking to long to reply R.O.R - But I'll mainly be driving on the N25. Very little dual carriageway but 90% decent, straight road.

I'm thinking the 1.6tdi might still benefit me as surely the Octavia is lighter than a Passat? I'm asking that as I used to own a 1.4 (boggo 80bhp) petrol Golf MkV and tbh I don't know how I survived overtaking people in that car.

100 miles a day on a decent straight road, at I presume a steadish speed? No contest at all in that case. You'll probably see the fuel cost saving in a couple of years, and the diesel will have a better resale value.

Don't know what the 1.2tsi is like to drive, but to get that sort of power out of a small engine it's probably going to have some lag, and at a decent speed it's going to be screaming. The 1.6Tdi is very smooth and quiet for a diesel - still a bit of lag but not as bad as the Mondeo 1.8 for example.

FGR

Nice. I'll be happy with that.

Thanks R.O.R.

GTE

betafrog wrote: »

1.4 TSi = 144BHP

2.0 TDi = 140BHP

To be fair the 2.0 in the Octavia seem to be 140 but thats and older generation engine. However if you want to compare the TSI vs TDI the newer 2.0 TDI is getting 170, like in the Superb. Seems to be the only Skoda with that engine.

betafrog wrote: »

A 1.4 petrol golf has more power than a 2.0 TDi version

And just for the sake of nitpicking the 1.4 petrol golf does not have more power then a 2.0 TDI.
The 1.4 Turbo petrol has more horse power then the 2.0 PD turbo diesel.

For something more like for like:
The 160hp 1.4 TSI verses the 170hp 2.0 CR TDI from the current golf.
Torque you are looking at 177 ft vs 258 ft.

Ok, the HP is similar and it seems to be a great piece of engineering to get that power from a small engine but that torque must make a difference. And I am positive that if you go down the line of both the 2.0 PD TDI's and 1.4 TSI's there would be a large torque difference in favour of the TDI.