Should landlord refill oil tank? Freezing to death here!

ToniTuddle

Myself and two friends moved into a house around the 15th Jan of this year.
Another tenant had been living there for few months.

Landlord put 450 litres of oil into tank the week after Christmas. That costs about €270/€280
(Tank had been empty)

He told that tenant the oil should do until May-which is utter nonsense unless you used it very sparingly. During the sub zero temperatures we have had the heating needed to be on to stop pipes from freezing.

Anyway we ran out of oil last week. So it's only lasted 7 weeks.
Housemate having it on 'constant' for 6 or 7 hours a night didn't help matters I know.

• Rent : €60 a week (€45 for rent €15 for bills)
• So that's €240 for bills he gets out of us 4 tenants every month.
• Bills included are ESB, heating(oil) and bins.

We told him about us running out but he said it should have done us until May....is he suppose to fill it up again?

Or is it our own fault and we should have been alot more careful with it and we will simply have to buy our own oil now???


I'm typing this while wearing 5 layers of clothing and I can see my breath as I breathe out it's that cold in my bedroom!!!! :(:(

Help!

Victor

It would seem that you are paying a fixed amount for bills. I take it that its isn't adjusted up or down depending on the amount of the ESB. I somehow doubt the bins and electricity come anywhere near €15 x 52 x 4 = €3,120.

So it seems to be at the landlord's risk and he should pay for more oil. Tell him if he doesn't arrange it that you will bring a complaint to the PRTB and that you may have to move out or buy oil and charge him for it.

Ste.phen

On the other hand, the landlord did say up front 'here's a tank of oil, you're on your own with it til the summer', so it's not like this has suddenly become an issue, no?

ToniTuddle

Ste.phen wrote: »

On the other hand, the landlord did say up front 'here's a tank of oil, you're on your own with it til the summer', so it's not like this has suddenly become an issue, no?

I wasn't even living in the house when he put in the oil.
He said to the other tenant "that should do you until May".

Just wondering legally in the case where it's "all bills included" in my rent should he now put in more oil. As he is making a nice wee profit otherwise!
I know of course he has to make a profit it's his house but I want to know what my rights are.
First time living in a house where the bills are included in the rent.

Is there anywhere I can ask like ring about it? Citizens advice or a proper tenant/landlord issues place!?

Cookie_Monster

450L should do you at least 4-5 months!

you must never turn the heating off!

Sir Oxman

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

450L should do you at least 4-5 months!

you must never turn the heating off!

It's been bloody freezing for the past few months though.
Plus there are now 4 people in the hoouse, more rooms needing heating.

wazzoraybelle

we filled our tank 1000l at the beginning of november and we refilled last week. I think ye did well to get 450 l to last 7 weeks given the cold snap. of course it depends on how well insulated the house is, but you're paying for the bills so I would think he is obliged to provide you with heat.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

450L should do you at least 4-5 months!

you must never turn the heating off!

Isn't there 1000 litres in a tank?

I know most people fill their tanks 2-3 times a year and obviously summer wouldn't be used very much at all. And it has been exceptionally cold. If you had gas heating then he wouldn't have any say in how much you use, just like the Electricity.

It's a tough one because if it is specifically €60 per month for bills then he may be in a position to charge you anything over that.

I think you might be best ringing the citizens advice bureau to get a straight answer?

bryaner

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

450L should do you at least 4-5 months!

you must never turn the heating off!

450L would do 4-5 months in a normal mild Irish winter, not a hope of it lasting that long when were having the coldest winter in 30 years!

axel rose

If it is the case that the landlord should fill the tank- whats to stop the Op to sell the replaced oil to someone and 'demand' more?

OP-buy a cheap electric heater/coal/briquettes until this is sorted. You are an adult (I presume) do something to heat yourself up! Its depresses me for the state of the country that you havent taken ANY steps to heat your house.

wazzoraybelle

axel rose wrote: »

If it is the case that the landlord should fill the tank- whats to stop the Op to sell the replaced oil to someone and 'demand' more?

OP-buy a cheap electric heater/coal/briquettes until this is sorted. You are an adult (I presume) do something to heat yourself up! Its depresses me for the state of the country that you havent taken ANY steps to heat your house.

the OP pays 15 euro/week for utilities as well as her 3 housemates, thats 60 euro/week for heat and power! do you not think she deserves heat and power for that!! it is more than enough!
OP I can't see how you are not entitled to an oil fill. If I were you I woud let the landlord know you are filling the tank and take it out of the rent. I wouldn't wait another day. It's not acceptable that you are in a cold house when you have paid for your heating.

wazzoraybelle

Also, I can't help but think that the landlord is profiteering from his utility charge. 240*12 =2880 euro. If he expects 450litres to last the heating season, he would at most fill the tank once a year which is less than 600 euro. Our household uses 2 fills per year. Our household uses 10kw elec/day but lets assume your house uses twice that 20kw*.16* 365=1168+140 std.charge=1308. 1308+600=1908, which leaves nearly 1000 euro for rubbish collection.
He's taking you guys for a ride, I would confront him and ask him to justify his charges if he is nont prepared to fill the tank.

axel rose

axel rose wrote: »

If it is the case that the landlord should fill the tank- whats to stop the Op to sell the replaced oil to someone and 'demand' more?

That's the risk the landlord has taken by including bills in the lease. If the tenants were using excessive amounts of oil then I could see why there would be a need for this argument. But they haven't. They have used less than half a tank in the two coldest months of the past 30 years! There are 4 people in what I'm guessing is a 4 bedroomed house.

There's nothing to stop the OP taking all her friends/families bins and charging the LL for them either but it's unlikely that this is happening.

OP-buy a cheap electric heater/coal/briquettes until this is sorted. You are an adult (I presume) do something to heat yourself up! Its depresses me for the state of the country that you havent taken ANY steps to heat your house.

A cheap electric heater will cost the landlord a fortune anyway, they cost alot to run and are very little use in a 4 bedroom house. Coal/Briquettes may not be an option.

The OP is not being unreasonable, she may be an adult, but she may be a student who has limited access to cash and therefore does not expect to be frozen cold when she has already paid her bills.

axel rose

I DO see all the points above. The landlord should have been more specific with his contract-and if what the OP states is true then LL will have to refill.

However, I have no sympathy for the pathetic...

I'm typing this while wearing 5 layers of clothing and I can see my breath as I breathe out it's that cold in my bedroom!!!!

There is no excuse for that, a responsible adult will sort out the situation with the LL AND source a heater from somewhere to keep warm in the meantime.

Cookie_Monster

Does the house not have any insulation?

Over the last three months we've only had the heating on for at most an hour a day by timer. Maybe on 5-6 days have had heat on longer.

axel rose

axel rose wrote: »

However, I have no sympathy for the pathetic...

There is no excuse for that, a responsible adult will sort out the situation with the LL AND source a heater from somewhere to keep warm in the meantime.

The thread is about whether or not she is entitled to have the tank refilled. She hasn't asked for your sympathy. She is looking for facts. There is no need call her pathetic!

tHE vAGGABOND

I wasn't even living in the house when he put in the oil.
He said to the other tenant "that should do you until May".

If you were not living there at the time how do you know the exact words he said. Did you happen to be present when he said that, or have you heard what he said 2nd [or 3rd] hand?

His exact words are very important in answering your question.

Cookie_Monster

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

His exact words are very important in answering your question.

why? if its not written down its worth nothing as it simply his word against theirs with no proof either way.

surely as its a usage issue as its your (collectivly) responsibility. He agrees to pay for x amount to last a certain period of time. if you over use it you have to pay yourselves until the end of the time period.

I find it very odd in the first place that you are simply paying a fixed price for bills, surely this is open to massive abuse on your part (if you wanted to, I am not suggesting you do)

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I find it very odd in the first place that you are simply paying a fixed price for bills, surely this is open to massive abuse on your part (if you wanted to, I am not suggesting you do)

I've never heard of this either. Bills are usually either included or not. It is clearly open to abuse from his side also.

OP would you consider asking him to lower your rent to €45 pw and pay your bills yourself?

mrgaa1

and does your landlord re-fill your fridge when its empty??? Its been an abnormal winter and we're still in it. Stop looking for a way out, take some responsibility and get on with it.

axel rose

Deleted User wrote: »

The thread is about whether or not she is entitled to have the tank refilled. She hasn't asked for your sympathy. She is looking for facts. There is no need call her pathetic!

It was the OP that put foward the image of the poor shivering tenent with 5 coats etc etc. If they were only looking for facts not sympathy then why post it? (The OP has already admitted that they were somewhat irresponsible with the oil).

I do think that if the LL clearly stated ALL oil bills would be paid by him them he is responsible. However the OP has all their electric needs included too- so there is no excuse to be shivering in the cold. Surely between 3 of them, one of them can get their hands on a heater?)

I do think its best all round to cover the bills yourself as inclusive bills always involves this kind of trouble.

Jumpy

The landlord is risking having frozen pipes as well. He needs to get off his arse and refill.

To mrgaa1, the bills are an included part of the rent, not a "once off fill fee".

Jumpy

Wait... OP have you even called him yet?

shoegirl

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I find it very odd in the first place that you are simply paying a fixed price for bills, surely this is open to massive abuse on your part (if you wanted to, I am not suggesting you do)

Actually no. If the landlord keeps the bills in his name and collects cash from the tenants additional to the rent without officially recording it he is almost certainly writing off as an expense for tax purposes. Sounds like he is gouging them mightily. Unfortunately the law is ambiguous on obligations regarding utilities, as I found out when a landlord decided to stop giving me free ESB and put in a meter charging me double the highest ESB rate. Technically its not illegal for a landlord to overcharge you for utilities. There is a law in the UK which restricts landlords from "reselling" utilities to you at more a certain percentage above cost price, but there is nothing in Ireland.

Phone him and tell him there wasn't enough oil and you need more. If he refuses ask for full bills and receipts for the last few months for utilities and oil.

axel rose

Jumpy wrote: »

Wait... OP have you even called him yet?

I think "The hypothermia" got to him!!

We dont even know what it says in his/her lease.

GeorgeBailey

Jumpy wrote: »

Wait... OP have you even called him yet?

Good question. OP?

Cookie_Monster

Jumpy wrote: »

The landlord is risking having frozen pipes as well. He needs to get off his arse and refill.

why would the pipes from the tank freeze? there's no water in them, oil will not freeze at above -10.

murphym7

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why would the pipes from the tank freeze? there's no water in them, oil will not freeze at above -10.

Think they mean frozen water pipes in the house form not having the heating on.

I think the OP does not have a leg to stand on. The point was made earlier that the landlord is profiteering - so what, we are all adults, you either agree to the deal in front of you or you walk away. Don't be moaning after that you are being robbed.

Pin_Cushion

You should call and just ask him, I'm sure he's aware that we've had a way colder winter than anyone expected.

Saying that though, utilities are included in your rent, so if he refuses to fill up the tank then just get yourself some cheapo electric heater from argos and run it 24/7. ESB bill isn't your worry and those yokes provide great heat!

Eglinton

It seem the ESB is included as well. If the Landlord won't refill the tank, then OP, I think you should go out and buy a few cheap fan convector heaters (one for each room) and keep them on as long as you like. The next ESB bill will make the LL think again about not refilling the tank!

EDIT: Pin Cushion must have been writing his post while I was reading the thread!!

ToniTuddle

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you all. I've been at college all day(yes I am one of those poor student types )
Thanks very much for all the help!

The tank is a 900l tank for those who were wondering.

I have taken steps to heat the house went and bought 2 bags of coals and 2 bags of kindling etc.

axel rose wrote: »

I DO see all the points above. The landlord should have been more specific with his contract-and if what the OP states is true then LL will have to refill.

However, I have no sympathy for the pathetic...

There is no excuse for that, a responsible adult will sort out the situation with the LL AND source a heater from somewhere to keep warm in the meantime.

I am not pathetic in saying how I've many layers on, as yet again tonight I've even more on me. Not looking for sympathy I'm merely stating how damn cold it is.
This house is definitely not insulated in the slightest.

Deleted User wrote: »

OP would you consider asking him to lower your rent to €45 pw and pay your bills yourself?

There is no way the other tenants would go for that so it's not an option.

axel rose wrote: »

(The OP has already admitted that they were somewhat irresponsible with the oil).

I do think that if the LL clearly stated ALL oil bills would be paid by him them he is responsible. However the OP has all their electric needs included too- so there is no excuse to be shivering in the cold. Surely between 3 of them, one of them can get their hands on a heater?)

I do think its best all round to cover the bills yourself as inclusive bills always involves this kind of trouble.

This is my first time renting with all bills included and so I never realised problems like this would occur. Thought this would be an easier option.
I was not irresponsible with the heating and turned it off alot but it would always get turned back on.

I'm going to buy myself an electric fan heater or whatever type of one to heat my own room that's for sure. My hair dryer can't take much more heating the bed!

The Landlord knows that the oil is gone. He half laughed at how it is gone saying "the lads in the other house haven't even used up theirs and they have had it since November!". That was all that was said and he left.
I didn't know where we stood and what rights we have so I wanted to check things out before I put my foot in it with my LL.


The first tenant made some reference to hoping the ESB bill was not too high as he would come looking for the rest. I've to speak to her about this as she left the house before I could discuss what she meant.

But from the sounds of some posters even though the heaters would put up the ESB the LL couldn't come looking for more money?
I'm going to call into Citizens Advice tomorrow after college.

Oh and I haven't signed any contract/lease. It's all cash in hand and he never gave out receipts to previous tenants but I've asked him too for me and he did the first time but "forgot" the receipt book last week when I paid this months rent.

ToniTuddle

murphym7 wrote: »

I think the OP does not have a leg to stand on. The point was made earlier that the landlord is profiteering - so what, we are all adults, you either agree to the deal in front of you or you walk away. Don't be moaning after that you are being robbed.

What I agreed to was €60 a week that was bills included.
Bills are oil, ESB and bins.
There was no mention of a limit or what if this runs out or anything of the like.
I may be an adult but I haven't rented a place since I was 17 and now I'm 24 so I'm getting use to it all again. I'm still learning the hard way at times!

skelliser

no receipts and all cash dealings probably mean he is not registered with the prtb or paying any tax.
So screw him!
head down to argos and buy yourself one of these bad boys for your room, http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/4151632/c_1/1|category_root|Home+and+furniture|14417894/c_2/2|cat_14417894|Heaters+and+radiators|14417957/c_3/3|cat_14417957|Oil+filled+radiators|14417968.htm
iv had a similar one and they are brilliant

probably run up a series esb bill, but hey, its bills included!

Guell72

skelliser wrote: »

head down to argos and buy yourself one of these bad boys for your room, http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/4151632/c_1/1|category_root|Home+and+furniture|14417894/c_2/2|cat_14417894|Heaters+and+radiators|14417957/c_3/3|cat_14417957|Oil+filled+radiators|14417968.htm

probably run up a series esb bill, but hey, its bills included!

Or better. Buy one for every room

axel rose

Op, next time the LL 'forgets' his receipt book, write your own. All you need is a piece of paper, date it, amount paid for rent on 123 high st. received by ...... signed by both of you.

Glad to hear that you are doing something about your situation.
If you can stretch to it, there are some brilliant oil filled heaters with timers. For tonight-open the oven door .

If the ESB is in the LL name, then its not your problem if he demands more money (just don't rip the ......). Finally, I probably wont be the only person advising you to move to a (more professional?) rental.

Victor

OP, can I suggest you write a short, but to the point letter to the landlord, saying you need to oil or that you will be raising a complaint with the PRTB? Keep a copy. might also want to talk to threshold.

www.prtb.ie
www.threshold.ie

mrgaa1 wrote: »

and does your landlord re-fill your fridge when its empty??? Its been an abnormal winter and we're still in it. Stop looking for a way out, take some responsibility and get on with it.

Well, if the landlord was billing for food at 50% above its normal price, then yes.

Thoie

axel rose wrote: »

For tonight-open the oven door .

I know there's a wink after that, but can we just reinforce the fact that's a joke, and no-one should leave an oven on overnight like that?

OP, you can buy a rent book in Easons or other places, and just ask the landlord to sign it each week/month. Rent books stay with the tenants, so there's no fear it will get forgotten.

axel rose

I'm not suggesting that the oven be left on overnight or left on unattended. I'm just stating that an oven is very effective in heating a room in an emergency. (From experience of a dodgy house in Maynooth and a very odd clause banning us from heaters in our lease.......lease had many odd clauses- but the rent was only £15 a week!:))


Edit
(ah-I see where you may think I meant to leave the oven on all night. I should have said; For this evening-open the oven door.

Dempo1

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Myself and two friends moved into a house around the 15th Jan of this year.
Another tenant had been living there for few months.

Landlord put 450 litres of oil into tank the week after Christmas. That costs about €270/€280
(Tank had been empty)

He told that tenant the oil should do until May-which is utter nonsense unless you used it very sparingly. During the sub zero temperatures we have had the heating needed to be on to stop pipes from freezing.

Anyway we ran out of oil last week. So it's only lasted 7 weeks.
Housemate having it on 'constant' for 6 or 7 hours a night didn't help matters I know.

• Rent : €60 a week (€45 for rent €15 for bills)
• So that's €240 for bills he gets out of us 4 tenants every month.
• Bills included are ESB, heating(oil) and bins.

We told him about us running out but he said it should have done us until May....is he suppose to fill it up again?

Or is it our own fault and we should have been alot more careful with it and we will simply have to buy our own oil now???


I'm typing this while wearing 5 layers of clothing and I can see my breath as I breathe out it's that cold in my bedroom!!!! :(:(

Help!

I do sympatise but I am quite surprised any rent agreement would include Oil fills, this would be extraordinarly generous. Are you entirely sure oil fills are included in your tenancy agreement. I do know of some agreements that include utility bills but i've never come across this scenario? I'm not a landlord by the way!

ToniTuddle

axel rose wrote: »

Finally, I probably wont be the only person advising you to move to a (more professional?) rental.

For next September I will try and do this and not live with friends.
Was always told it was a bad idea!
Alot of the more professional places do not like having students living in them though for fear of excessive partying etc.
Just wish to live in a nice clean and warm house, where everyone helps out equally in tidyness!! >.<

Victor wrote: »

OP, can I suggest you write a short, but to the point letter to the landlord, saying you need to oil or that you will be raising a complaint with the PRTB? Keep a copy. might also want to talk to threshold.

www.prtb.ie
www.threshold.ie

Thanks for those websites I must write them down so I will remember them. Aside from the oil there are a few other minor details niggling at me.
I've a feeling I will be handing in my 4 weeks notice and moving home as a result of these various issues!

Dempo1 wrote: »

I do sympatise but I am quite surprised any rent agreement would include Oil fills, this would be extraordinarly generous. Are you entirely sure oil fills are included in your tenancy agreement. I do know of some agreements that include utility bills but i've never come across this scenario? I'm not a landlord by the way!

I've seen a few places advertised that included heating and ESB or bins and heating.

450 litres only cost in and around €275
Just over a month and he has the oil paid for. So can't see why he wouldn't refil it up as we are paying for it you know?
Another thing is that the previous tenants all had paid their rent up until the time we moved in so that oil was technically paid up for by them.

Urrrghh. I just want to keep my nose down and get my deposit back without any hassle and next year live in a proper place.
But most students I know (in houses not those blocks of student flats) never seem to have to sign leases as they only there for 8 or 9 months or school term.

Cookie_Monster

Get a BER done and if the results say not enough insulation, demand the landlord insulate the house

jeepers101

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Get a BER done and if the results say not enough insulation, demand the landlord insulate the house

Yeah cause a bunch of students can afford a BER cert

Agent J

Landlord is required to have a BER done themselves before they let.

As of Jan 01 2009 afaik.

theg81der

Bills included is what it says on the till, you have no contract so he didn`t say what t max was. Screw him he wouldn`t live with no heat.

bog master

Slightly off topic but..... to those who say 450 litres should last 4-5 months, Bullfeathers!!! Is that heating a house or a box room? Even taking 4 months, which is 120 days, that works out 3.75 litres per day. The average boilers using around 2.5 litres per hour on full burn. So you reckon an hour and half a day with boiler running is going to heat a house?

jeepers101

Agent J wrote: »

Landlord is required to have a BER done themselves before they let.

As of Jan 01 2009 afaik.

From the sounds of it the landlord is neither paying tax nor registered with prtb, so i don't think he'd go to the bother of getting a BER cert.

The_Conductor

jeepers101 wrote: »

From the sounds of it the landlord is neither paying tax nor registered with prtb, so i don't think he'd go to the bother of getting a BER cert.

Don't automatically assume that the Landlord is not paying tax- or is not registered with the PRTB. You can download a spreadsheet from the PRTB website detailing tenancies registered on their database (but note- it can be a few months behind, so don't assume its 100% accurate either).

The BER cert is actually a fully tax deductable expense for the landlord- so it doesn't make a lot of sense to not get it done. Aside from anything else- the page of recommendations can be an eye opener......

Guell72

jeepers101 wrote: »

From the sounds of it the landlord is neither paying tax nor registered with prtb, so i don't think he'd go to the bother of getting a BER cert.

I dont understand why people always assume this.
Im sure landlords would risk a hell of a lot by not paying tax or registering with the prtb.

ToniTuddle

Ringing him today and handing in my 4 week notice.
Need to go home and save my money anyway for the summer.
Thanks for all the advice, I shall be making note and using it for this September!
Hopefully I won't be in any bother then though

Cheers folks


Actually...let's hope there is no hassle getting my deposit back :eek:

Il Trap

ToniTuddle wrote: »

Myself and two friends moved into a house around the 15th Jan of this year.
Another tenant had been living there for few months.

Landlord put 450 litres of oil into tank the week after Christmas. That costs about €270/€280
(Tank had been empty)

He told that tenant the oil should do until May-which is utter nonsense unless you used it very sparingly. During the sub zero temperatures we have had the heating needed to be on to stop pipes from freezing.

Anyway we ran out of oil last week. So it's only lasted 7 weeks.
Housemate having it on 'constant' for 6 or 7 hours a night didn't help matters I know.

• Rent : €60 a week (€45 for rent €15 for bills)
• So that's €240 for bills he gets out of us 4 tenants every month.
• Bills included are ESB, heating(oil) and bins.

We told him about us running out but he said it should have done us until May....is he suppose to fill it up again?

Or is it our own fault and we should have been alot more careful with it and we will simply have to buy our own oil now???


I'm typing this while wearing 5 layers of clothing and I can see my breath as I breathe out it's that cold in my bedroom!!!! :(:(

Help!

By any chance is this house in Drumcondra? I experienced EXACTLY the same situation recently! We came to a half and half compromise. Very begrudgingly on his part.

ToniTuddle

Il Trap wrote: »

By any chance is this house in Drumcondra? I experienced EXACTLY the same situation recently! We came to a half and half compromise. Very begrudgingly on his part.

Nope up in Donegal actually!
There would be no compromise on his part, he has no intention of refilling.
I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and my room tidy and get my deposit back. Chalk it down to experience. Maybe in September I'll live in a place that has no issues ha!

Couldn't get through to him on phone tonight to hand in notice so I'll keep trying tomorrow.

Plus we told him to get a lock for our oil tank as there is nothing on it and would easily be stolen. That was 2 weeks ago and still nothing.