what to do

we'llallhavetea_old

hi all,

i'm looking for advise, experiences or opinions.

my daughter started school in sept last. she is baptised. i was reared catholic (not forcefully) and am now non-religious. i would lke her to be non-religious until she's old enough to make up her own mind.

however, i said nothing to the teacher about this and i bought the religion books for school etc, so as far as the school is concerned, she is catholic.

i am torn.

should i just let her go through school and recieve the sacraments (but let her know my opinion on it) OR should i stop this whole saga now and not have her do any religion?

i don't have any friends in this situation. my sister has kids but she's "catholic" (doesn't practice it)

and yes, i got her baptised because i was worried about her being excluded in school, and yes this makes me a hypocrite and no i don't care. i just want what's best for my daughter and don't really give a damn about the catholic church "having another catholic on their books". that doesn't concern me.

also, she attends a small country school, so i'm not sure if there are any other non-religious kids in her class.

i just don't want her to feel left out.

(mods please fix/move/edit if it needs it, thanks)

byhookorbycrook

Small schools rarely look for a child to be christened, it only ever comes into play if a Catholic school is oversubscribed.If you don't believe, don't be forced into thinking your daughter must get sacraments.
I know plenty of children who came to the ceremony with class mates and might have had some small job to do on the day.Only time that I have ever heard a child complain that he/she wasn't getting the sacrament was that they lost out financially.

As to letting her do religion, the Alive-O programme is not like the older Bible thumping programmes you may have had at school. You can ask that she does something else at religion time,but I've found that in cases where this happens those not supposed to be "doing" religion pay more attention that those who are!!!

Let the school know what you want for your child and see what your options are.

Waternews

Hi,
I'm the same - brought up catholic, but have completely rejected it now. I had my daughter christened, for educational reasons only.
To be honest, I had still not fully rejected the church at that point - but I am an atheist now.

Anyway - while it might be ok now, you need to think about when your little girl comes back and is talking about god creating the world, and all the other religious stuff.
What about when she is making her communion and you have to listen to the whole first confession stuff, and the demands for you to attend mass (by the school!) every sunday.
If you can't stomach the idea - then don't let her have anything to do with it.

Ask her teacher not to include her in RE, but to ensure that she's not just left colouring. She will not be the only child. Even in a small school.

I know the thought her being the only girl not in a white dress may be distressing - but you can take her off and make a fuss of her in other ways - get her a special dress etc

I don't know if you are an atheist or simply not catholic at this point. Let's say 'not a catholic' - then you just say, god is everywhere, you don't have to join a club and follow silly rules. I was going to say something about them not liking girls anyway!

HTH

we'llallhavetea_old

Waternews wrote: »

Hi,
I'm the same - brought up catholic, but have completely rejected it now. I had my daughter christened, for educational reasons only.
To be honest, I had still not fully rejected the church at that point - but I am an atheist now.

Anyway - while it might be ok now, you need to think about when your little girl comes back and is talking about god creating the world, and all the other religious stuff.
What about when she is making her communion and you have to listen to the whole first confession stuff, and the demands for you to attend mass (by the school!) every sunday.
If you can't stomach the idea - then don't let her have anything to do with it.

Ask her teacher not to include her in RE, but to ensure that she's not just left colouring. She will not be the only child. Even in a small school.

I know the thought her being the only girl not in a white dress may be distressing - but you can take her off and make a fuss of her in other ways - get her a special dress etc

I don't know if you are an atheist or simply not catholic at this point. Let's say 'not a catholic' - then you just say, god is everywhere, you don't have to join a club and follow silly rules. I was going to say something about them not liking girls anyway!

HTH

thanks for the response, i really need to hear as much advice as possible, i'm having little meltdowns with no one to talk to about it!

first confession makes me sick, cannot cope with that in particular.

i don't mind her not having a white dress at all at all.

i am an atheist btw! but i just tell my daughter that we don't do church/god thing, so "non-religious" is less of a label than atheist i suppose.

cynder

HI,

I was and am no-religion, at school in co cork my life was made horrible because of the kids attitude towards me 1980s and 1990's. i was weird cause i didnt go to church in some ways i was excuded.

however i have a 10 year old she was christened (her dads doing, i had no idea) and she did religion at school and did her communion (which all girls wanna do because they get to dress u pretty and get loads of money (there the only reasons they do it)). I was at my 2 sons christenings but did not take part.

I want my kids to ask questions and choose a religion of their choice when they are older and able to understand more. jut because i am allowing them to take part does not mean that when they come home i agree to what they tell me. i was brought up both church of england and jehovahs witness, i was never baptised. i have no religion but i still hold on to some of the teachings of those religions. so if my daughter comes home and says i was told this, i will tell her others dont believe that they believe something different and that one day she will decide what she believes in...
give them the info they need to make there own choices (age appropriate).

i havent told her i dont believe in heaven as that might scare her (she is diabetic and askes about death sometimes) i tell her others believe they will be reincarnated others think they will live on a paradise earth and some think they will go to heaven.

i didnt fit in a school because of a uk accent and religion, back then ireland wasnt so multi-cultural, now there are many more influences and the chance is a child now has a better chance of exceptence that what i did in back in 1988.

good luck. oh yeh none of my kids or husband go to mass, his main real reason for pushing the religion was his parents.

Waternews

first confession makes me sick, cannot cope with that in particular.

i don't mind her not having a white dress at all at all.

i am an atheist btw! but i just tell my daughter that we don't do church/god thing, so "non-religious" is less of a label than atheist i suppose.

I think you have it all answered here!
Tell her teacher now, so it's not weird when she gets to first communion time.
You can always change your mind back again!

There is now no way I'd let my daughter anywhere near any of this nonsense. The thought of her having to 'confess' is insane. (BTW they apparantly don't do that anymore, and there are no sins either).

It can be difficult to talk about this topic though, especially if your parents/their generation around you are in any way devout.

we'llallhavetea_old

i don't want her to make her communion, but i don't want to stop her from making her communion if she wants to.... i don't want her to be singled out, if she is, it will be MY fault.

oh i didn't know they stopped the whole "first confession" thing, thats good!

Redpunto

I;d be in a similar situation but sent our kids to a "catholic" school. It was not for the religious reason but becuase (for different reasons) the school provided the best support for our kids. One has done the communion and was thrilled to be part of the whole day. Religion is way above the heads of kids at that age and all they want is to be like all the other kids and participate in what all the other kids are doing. My feeling is to let them participate in the "normal" church/religious ceremonies that all the kids do in teh school and when they are older they can make the choice themselves whether to follow the faith or not.

In an ideal world, schools would not have any affiliation to any religion and leave these teachings for home but this is Ireland and this is how the majority of schools operate here.

we'llallhavetea_old

Redpunto wrote: »

I;d be in a similar situation but sent our kids to a "catholic" school. It was not for the religious reason but becuase (for different reasons) the school provided the best support for our kids. One has done the communion and was thrilled to be part of the whole day. Religion is way above the heads of kids at that age and all they want is to be like all the other kids and participate in what all the other kids are doing. My feeling is to let them participate in the "normal" church/religious ceremonies that all the kids do in teh school and when they are older they can make the choice themselves whether to follow the faith or not.

In an ideal world, schools would not have any affiliation to any religion and leave these teachings for home but this is Ireland and this is how the majority of schools operate here.

thanks for your comment, did your child that made their communion know that you are a non-believer? or did you let them know?
does the child believe in catholicism?

Redpunto

No, I dont think he'd be old enough/mature enough to have that discussion yet but he wouldnt ask us any questions really about religion any hows. I would definately let my kids know my views when they are old enough but like I said, for our kids, they just dont have the knowledge yet to be able to make a decision as to whether they want to follow catholism yet or not.

We never bring them to church unless its school related so we have no religion at home. When ever i go to church i find its like a cult with all the repsonses and the sit up sit down kneel down and back up again and the altar kids dressed in white (reminds me of the KKK:D) but these are views I discovered myself when I was older. Kids of that age just want to participate and join in but I am not going to let my views of the church affect their school life and I would rather them be happy and do what all the other kids do. But that is a personal choice and one you'll have to decide yourself.:)

we'llallhavetea_old

Redpunto wrote: »

No, I dont think he'd be old enough/mature enough to have that discussion yet but he wouldnt ask us any questions really about religion any hows. I would definately let my kids know my views when they are old enough but like I said, for our kids, they just dont have the knowledge yet to be able to make a decision as to whether they want to follow catholism yet or not.

We never bring them to church unless its school related so we have no religion at home. When ever i go to church i find its like a cult with all the repsonses and the sit up sit down kneel down and back up again and the altar kids dressed in white (reminds me of the KKK:D) but these are views I discovered myself when I was older. Kids of that age just want to participate and join in but I am not going to let my views of the church affect their school life and I would rather them be happy and do what all the other kids do. But that is a personal choice and one you'll have to decide yourself.:)

hmm, but i don't want her thinking that what she's taught about catholicism is true, i wouldn't be very comfortable with that tbh.

miss no stars

Just a suggestion, feel free to ignore if you want.

We never really went to mass when I was young but I went to a catholic school, was baptised, made my communion and confirmation and all that jazz. The baptism I kinda understand my parents doing (it was a conscious decision on their part - they felt it was better to belong than to be left out) and the communion I wanted to do because everyone else was doing it and you got the dress and money and big day out afterwards.

However, come confirmation time I was distinctly less comfortable with the whole sordid affair, but financially I decided it was in my favour to go ahead with it (greedy much?)

At 7 or 8 all the child is going to want is to belong, have her big day with the dress, money and dinner just like everyone else. At 11 or 12, they might be thinking about what it means. What I would suggest is leave it be for the communion and let her have her day just like all the other little girls. but when she gets closer to confirmation, let her know that she can chose whether or not she wants to make it. Tell her that making her confirmation is her stating that she believes in what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. You could suggest to her that she does not have to make a decision right now - she can wait a year or ten or twenty if she so wishes, but let her know that you want her to be absolutely certain about it and if she does go ahead (at any stage, not just right away) you'll support her and have the big confirmation do.

we'llallhavetea_old

thank you miss no stars, that sounds lovely!

the only thing is that i dont want her to think that there is some big invisible man watching her every move and the likes, it makes me uncomfortable and i really dont want that for my child.

so what i'm asking also is, would it be more trouble for my daughter if i were to let her know that the whole communion situation is not to be taken to heart?

would it be harder for her making her communion, knowing that its all a big "show", because i refuse to lie to her about the way i feel on the matter.

or would it be better to just put a whole stop to any participation because i'm going to tell her not to take it seriously anyway? (and then we have the singling out issue with other kids)

Nevyn

Children will find reasons to pick on other children no matter what we do as parents.
If you are going to opt out your child from the RE program in school then you have to be
able to answer thier questions, make them confident so they can answers questions put
to them and teach them respect the spirituality of others and how it is expressed in religion.

My daughter is giving up something for Lent this year, not that she has to, not that it is something which is ever done in this house, not that she is christian but to be supportive of the other children in her class who are christian and are doing so for religious reasons.

Yes she is the only none christian child in the class, there was some friction when she was in 2nd class which is communion year but she was prepared for that rite being a big
focus in the class room and she was happier doing art while the rest of the class did communion prep.

There was some wavering esp when it came to The Dress, but she was told if she wanted to arrangements could be made to have her baptised and her grandmother could take her to mass to help her prepare, if she really wanted. When we figured out it was more about the dress, well such dresses have a fatal flaw they are not pink and once she was told she could have a custom made pink dress and attend the rest of the class
having thier big day to share it with them she was happy.

She did have some of the girls in the class try and put pressure on her saying they would pray to holy god to make her belive in him as he can do anything and her reply
surpised me, she said that he could not make a triangle with 4 corners so he can't do anything.

She knows that we have given her the choice to pick what religion she wants to be when she is older and if she then chooses to become christian and catholic then that is ok with us if that is what makes her happy.

We did have a few bumps along the way as it's hard for a child to figure out that teacher is right about the spelling of sneachta and that 8 times 2 is 16 but that teacher then talking about sin and heaven and god may not be right. But I dealt with it and as a counter point to what she and her brother were learning in school I made sure to teach them a bit about differnt world religions and different concepts of god and that some people live good and happy lives with out the need for gods in them.

You may have complicated things by getting her baptised and enrolled but you can approach the school and have her not need to take part in the RE classed but you have to be able to support her, answer her questions and not disparriage what will be the majority belief in the class room.

we'llallhavetea_old

thanks thaedydal,

i know kids will always find a reason to pick on other kids, i just know i'm arming them with something else and more obvious.

you come across as very confident, something i definitely lack when it comes to this decision. i think its because i don't have anyone around me in the same position, that can reassure me.

this thread is helping though, so hopefully more people will respond.

Nevyn

It's the confidence of having managed it with my kids in 6th class and 4th more then anything else. Thier Dad didn't want them baptised either but I was the one who had to stand up to family and I am the one who has had to prepare them for what might happen and answer all thier questions. I did worry about the effect it might have on them they get more teased over thier accent or lack thereof then anything else.

There is a thread in the atheist and agnostic forum here about raising kids.
most of the regulars there find this forum to fluffy :P

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055820993

I have two nieces under the age of 3 and they were both christened so it's not like it's a family trend. I did draw a lot of solace from reading how other parents coped with this on mostly american sites and like anything else our kids pick up so much from us by sheer example, you are nevours about a thing then they are, if you are confident then they are.

seanybiker

I dont see why you got her baptised. she wouldnt be excluded in school.
Well Im only going from the expirience of two chaps I went to school with. Im 26 now so it was a cupla years ago.
One fella didnt have any problem at all and he just got to study while we done religion. the other chap could study if he wanted to but he rathered just sitting in the class listening to the stories about jeebus for the laugh.
Funnily enough the only person in my class who got abuse was the prodestant. Which imho was a bit unfair. he was a tool in all fairness, not because his religion, just because, well he was a dope.
anyways even if your child does go through the rigmaroll there is always "opout" if she wants.

we'llallhavetea_old

i'll headover to that thread now! even though, i kinda need fluffy..

deisemum

In both my childrens classes there were pupils who were non-catholic plus those who were baptised catholic but parents no longer want their children to be brought up as catholics. There wasn't any problem nor were they picked on over it.

My younger son is making his comfirmation this year and I'm opposed to it but his dad wants him to make it and my son only wants to make it for the financial gain even though I said I'd give him money not to make it if that's what he's worried about.

This coming Thursday he's got his ceremony of light and I will not be attending and I don't think I'll attending his actual confirmation.

I'm looking into formally defecting from the catholic church and have been researching the alternatives for my funeral etc. so long as it's not a catholic one. www.countmeout.ie has all the information on defecting and I think that's the way I'll go.

I no longer want to be counted as a catholic in any statistics especially when it's counted as being a catholic for giving the catholic church more of a say in education.

we'llallhavetea_old

seanybiker wrote: »

I dont see why you got her baptised. she wouldnt be excluded in school.

i'm afraid you can't know that! doesn't make any difference to me if she's baptised tbh, its the practicing part that is the real issue.

thanks for the comment anyway

seanybiker

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

i'm afraid you can't know that! doesn't make any difference to me if she's baptised tbh, its the practicing part that is the real issue.

thanks for the comment anyway

well in all fairness I cant know for sure if she wont be excluded, same as yourself not being sure that she would be excluded.
I suppose you took the easy option for your childs sake which I imagine any other parent would do.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish your daughter the best of luck in school.
hopefully you will look back on this thread in a few years and wonder what the worry was all about

ill have 3 sugars in me tea

seanybiker

deisemum wrote: »

This coming Thursday he's got his ceremony of light and I will not be attending and I don't think I'll attending his actual confirmation.

would you not attend it to be proud of your son obviously making a choice, be it financial gain or not, but im sure he would like to see you there?
Jaysus Im not knocking you at all. Im an athiest but my missus isnt. I know when we have kids they are going to be christened and make communion etc. Personally it doesnt bother me. ill leave em do it just for the tradition part, nothing to do with religion.
im sure the night your son makes his confirmation you will have a few drinks, or will you just act like its just another day and sit down and watch corrie??
again Im not getting onto you.
I loves the religion stuff for the tradition of
baptism: woo lets wet the babies head
communion: ah sure we'll have a drink
confirmation: lets all get drunk and think that our sons and duaghters are to young to drink, then put them to bed early because they robbed a few cans.
Marraige: ah well jaysus, get out of the church and lets get pissered.


I know it sounds like Im tking the piss but honestly Im not. Im sure ye know what I mean.

we'llallhavetea_old

@seanybiker, deisemum says she has "serious issues" with the church, so me or you probably wouldn't get it.

i think its fair enough, i'm not a fan of the church, but i've not got serious issues that i can't brush aside.

deisemum

I have very serious issues with a local parish priest and my boys former principal who threatened us in a most disgusting and sick way when we brought it to the school's attention about a male teacher who assaulted our son on a number of occasions when he was 9 years old. We personally saw the extent they'd go to cover the whole thing up.

The thoughts of seeing that parish priest at a confirmation sickens me.

we'llallhavetea_old

jesus deisemum, sorry to hear that.

Nevyn

Moved at OP request.