The current government

billymitchell

Over the last few months, I have noticed that even though the governments rating is at an all time low. People all seem to be getting a little disillusioned with the opposition and are beginning to doubt if they would actually do a better job than the greens & FF.

Listening to Lucinda Creighton on the frontline last night trying to get in a bit of party political broadcast on behalf of FG, it struck me as if they would be equally as rudderless and unpopular if they were in power(granted, it was lucinda creighton, maybe not the best person to form a general opinion of the opposition on!!)

Do people here think that if FG/labour were in power at the moment, that we would be much better off?

ProperDeadly

We would definatly not be better off. Certain things would be different, but overall we would probably be in the same state we're in now.

During a recession, the government of the day is never popular. If Fine Gael was in power now, everybody would be hating them!

fuelinjection

Fianna Gael/Labour would be a nightmare at the moment.
I am not a fan of the Fianna Fail polices of the last 10 years but at least they are cutting back on spending money. The opposition would raise taxes and start spending money on the public service which is the last thing we need.
They will not say this at the moment as they are expecting a win, but I trust that the Irish peple will not vote them in.

Liam Byrne

I think that we'd be better off alright.

It's debatable as to how much better off, because there was a global downturn.

But FF incompetency, policies and waste meant that we were far more exposed to it, and the impact brought down the whole house of cards that FF had built around their buddies and cronies.

Now, if someone else had been in power and - for example - the Financial Regulator had actually been regulating, and the country's income wasn't based on selling overpriced houses to one another, then we might have just about enough momentum to weather the storm.

We might also have a situation where corruption was frowned upon, and where people caught rotten were fired as they should be, so whatever steps were required to recover were more palatable.

However - and it's a big however - the stance of FG re O'Donoghue's excesses was unacceptable, so the level of fairness and accountability would still not be as high normal as is required to have a functioning democracy.

Gilmore stood his ground on this, which is a plus for Labour, but at the same time the worry is there that he'd be too linked to the unions, so therefore while he meets the criteria on ethics, he'd be a worry re policies.

So it's a VERY tight call re what's required for the future, with my only conviction being that FF have proven that they have no interest in either (a) having accountability, (b) disowning corruption and (c) creating a fair and equitable country.

Red_Marauder

It would be totally naive to suggest that we would be better off to any significant degree under Fine Gael. Given the economic mess that we are in that is simply a non starter. However, I am convinced we would be on a far safer and more assured path to recovery.

Fine Gael is no silver bullet solution, but they do offer a clear and credible pathway back to economic growth, and policy of a strength far greater than that offered by Fianna Fáil.

My biggest worry is Labour. I would rather see us go into coalition with Fianna Fáil than Labour. I just do not trust them. I am convinced they would have sidestepped and wrangled their way out of public sector cuts or found some shoddy, irresponsible populist yet doomed alternative to avoid cuts, as is their nature.

The only thing we can do is hold fast and aim for a Fine Gael majority.

gandalf

A change of personalities would be a very good thing. Fianna Fail have been in power far too long at this stage and the arrogance that exudes from them is quite staggering at times. They have no real ideas on how to be proactive and to face the challenges that we as a country are now facing. They are too close to a lot of the players that have magnified the severity of the downturn in Ireland.

However FG will be plagued by the main problem that I feel handicaps our National Politicians which is they are nothing more than jumped up councillors who are prisoners to the whim of constituency politics. Until this is addressed then we will never get away from the cronyism that hobbles true National Governance in this country.

Red_Marauder

billymitchell wrote: »

Listening to Lucinda Creighton on the frontline last night trying to get in a bit of party political broadcast on behalf of FG, it struck me as if they would be equally as rudderless and unpopular if they were in power(granted, it was lucinda creighton, maybe not the best person to form a general opinion of the opposition on!!)

I have to say that was a woeful representation of the party on Creighton's behalf last night. I don't think an awful lot of her media appearances. Within Fine Gael I think she has wonderful energy and ideas and input but her PR and her public image are often found wanting.

I like LC, but when a politician has to actively try as hard as she does not to appear condescending, I think it's a bad sign. I know she does grate on some people and I just wonder if we might not be better off seeing her in the Dáil chamber where she can be at her best as opposed to the rather more dicey environment of a television recording studio for the Frontline or Vincent Browne where she tends to falter.

K-9

FG and Labour had plenty of populist opposition policies as well. Their first reaction to the property "soft landing" in late 06 was cut or reduce stamp duty. Their manifesto of cutting taxes in the subsequent election hardly inspires confidence.

Still, FF are in power too long, to many big egos and too many detached from reality.

billymitchell

I dont think any of the political parties there at the moment are any use. I think we would all be fooked if Enda took over, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would have the political ability to run a country! Eamon Gilmore seems to have a bit more about him, but he is too cozy with the unions, so he would be an automatic no for me too.

I think lets see out the term of the current government, assess what state the country is in then, then vote accordingly. Chances are, my vote will be staying in my pocket, as none of them seem worth the hassle of going to a polling booth

In an ideal world, I would get all the TD's to pick the 12-14 best politicans in the Dail(across all parties), let them run the country. And the rest can just go back to getting potholes filled and whatever else local politicans do. Pure waste of time having them their in the dail.

ednwireland

i dont remember FG putting anything substantailly different to FF in 2007 (or 2002 for that matter where they were un-electable under noonan)

now i stand to be corrected on that

i guess it may have been slightly less painful but by 2007 the seeds were sown and half grown of this mess would a fg coalition have been tighter on the banks and launched less tax breaks to try and perpetuate the boom, actually i see no evidence that they would

Red_Marauder

K-9 wrote: »

FG and Labour had plenty of populist opposition policies as well. Their first reaction to the property "soft landing" in late 06 was cut or reduce stamp duty. Their manifesto of cutting taxes in the subsequent election hardly inspires confidence.

In fairness, both of these policies were in vastly different economic situations.

I actually think that if we had been in a soft landing, lowering stamp duty would have been a wise move at the time.

FG particularly did not know, being in opposition, the extent to which it was not a soft landing, but rather a bone shattering bump, nor the extent of the global crash that was to come.
The SD policy did make sense for the time and for the information FG had, and you can't ask much more than that from an opposition party in fairness.

fuelinjection

Somebody show me the Fianna Gael solutions to our massive debt problems and I will vote for them. And I mean a written document instead of whinging.

Until then enjoy the Enda Kenny PR-trained smile.

Red_Marauder

fuelinjection wrote: »

Somebody show me the Fianna Gael solutions to our massive debt problems and I will vote for them. And I mean a written document instead of whinging.

Until then enjoy the Enda Kenny PR-trained smile.

This isn't a secretarial service, go find them yourself and maybe if you have a problem with them debate that. From memory FG have proposed public sector pay cuts of about 1.5million euro and social welfare cuts. It has proposed current expnediture cuts right across the board.

But it isn't anyone in FGs job to sell an idea to an internet poster. Maybe use google.

K-9

Red_Marauder wrote: »

In fairness, both of these policies were in vastly different economic situations.

I actually think that if we had been in a soft landing, lowering stamp duty would have been a wise move at the time.

FG particularly did not know, being in opposition, the extent to which it was not a soft landing, but rather a bone shattering bump, nor the extent of the global crash that was to come.
The SD policy did make sense for the time and for the information FG had, and you can't ask much more than that from an opposition party in fairness.

Yet plenty of posters on here and a good few economists seen it coming.

They did say we were too property reliant, God Bless them!

Cutting Stamp Duty would have been a joke. All it would have done was delay the inevitable and inflate the bubble more, giving buyers false confidence.

fuelinjection

Red_Marauder wrote: »

TBut it isn't anyone in FGs job to sell an idea to an internet poster. Maybe use google.

I am not a Fianna Failer ... but I think I just drew blood. Sorry.

p.s. any link to FG economic recovery would be most welcome.

Sulmac

fuelinjection wrote: »

Somebody show me the Fianna Gael solutions to our massive debt problems and I will vote for them. And I mean a written document instead of whinging.

It's really not that difficult to find their policies, they do have a website. :rolleyes:

But, just to be sure, here's a copy:

TUESDAY 09 Feb 10
Public Finances: Undoing the Damage

Our national debt is spiralling out of control, leaving a huge burden for future generations. But massive Government tax increases and cuts in investment in recent budgets are not the solution.

Fine Gael believes the only way to break out of this deflationary trap is through a radical jobs and public service reform strategy.

• Government borrowing will likely remain at 12% of GDP in 2010 (equivalent to exchequer borrowing of about €20 billion), the highest in Europe after Greece.And the national debt is likely to break through €100 billion by the end of this year – almost a four-fold increase since 2007. And this not even include additional bail-outs by this Government for the banking system.
• While the December tax take appeared strong, the rate of deterioration in the public finances has not improved in any meaningful way and it would be foolish to assume that these figures represent a turning point. We have seen false dawns before in the public finances.

Unless we fix the public finances, Ireland will end up spending twice as much on debt servicing than on education within a decade. That’s why Fine Gael has committed to eliminating the gap between day-to-day revenues and spending by 2014.

Half the battle in fixing the public finances is getting people back to work. In Fine Gael’s view, the “fiscal crisis” cannot be separated from the “jobs crisis”.

By adopting policies that are destroying jobs, this Government is chasing its tail. The 16% increase in taxes in 2009 made Ireland a less attractive place to work, to invest and to do business. That’s why tax receipts fell by €10 billion and are expected to fall again in 2010. And the €4 billion in cuts announced in December will be offset by higher debt servicing costs and welfare payments to the unemployed.

And we can’t go back to the well this year to look for more tax increases or cuts in the capital programme, social welfare rates and public sector pay. For Fine Gael, the only way to break out of this deflationary debt trap is through an ambitious growth, jobs and genuine reform strategy, based around:

• A €900m euro Jobs Tax Cut that will lower business costs, boost our competitiveness, provide an incentive for businesses to hire again and create 35,000 jobs over the coming years.
• A big stimulus to investment in our dilapidated energy, water and communications networks that are holding back the economy. Fine Gael’s NewERA plan would over 100,000 new jobs, thereby cutting the deficit by €4.0 billion.
• Paying people to work or train, not to lie idle. Fine Gael’s Alternative Budget would have shifted €365m from social welfare spending to supports for second chance education, training and work.
• Transforming the public sector to do more with less. For Fine Gael real reform is about getting rid of the centralised bureaucracy and over-management that ties our public services down. We want to give power back to the front-line professionals and public service users that are much better placed to decide how scarce resources can be best used.

Politics must lead the way in reforming the public service. That is why in Government, Fine Gael will ask the people to consider amendments to the Constitution to abolish the Seanad, to cut the number of Dáil deputies by up to 20, to strengthen Dáil committees, and to change the electoral system.

Relevant Documents:

NewERA
Jobs Tax Cut
Hope for a Lost Generation

fuelinjection

Sulmac wrote: »

It's really not that difficult to find their policies, they do have a website. :rolleyes:

But, just to be sure, here's a copy:

Yeah yeah, seen it before actually.
Again I have read nothing new, we Fianna Gaelers will drop taxes and somehow balance the budget with no money coming in. It's called magic.
Look at Greece now, they are a step away from the IMF coming in and running the country and that would be unacceptable for Ireland. I would rather see a revolution.

scr123

The dogs on the street knew the economy would go into recession
The dogs on the street knew the property bubble would burst
Its a barefaced liar who would claim he/she knew highly educated, highly trained and highly motivated people in the financial sector would would over a 5 year period become total idiots
The dogs on the street knew that as soon as the recession came a high number of businesses operating on the cliff edge would topple over and lead to massive job losses. For hundreds of years now its been boom/bust and what happened here and elsewhere is totally normal.
If we analyse the unemployment figure we will come up with a core 100000 who should be helped more but because so many are screwing the system the resources cannot be directed to them.

We are going through severe corrections in the economy and it cannot be done without pain. The question is, what combination of parties will do the dirty work and set us on the road to recovery. Based on history and what policies are on offer from all sides right now my money is on the present government. I was on the bash FF bandwagon but copped on to myself when I realised there was nothing other than that on offer ! As I see it, FF have the heads down and are facing the hostility and the low polls without making deviating from the course they have set out. In politics that takes balls I can only hope nothing happens to cause an election till 2012

simonj

ProperDeadly wrote: »

We would definatly not be better off. Certain things would be different, but overall we would probably be in the same state we're in now.

During a recession, the government of the day is never popular. If Fine Gael was in power now, everybody would be hating them!

Oh come on, there is a lot more to hate the buggers for than just being in Government:pac:

Look, both major parties are short on real ideas, they are based on a 90 year old system that is failing in the 21st century.
The way things are going, what is important is family caste as opposed to political ideas

Fr0g

scr123 wrote: »

The dogs on the street knew the economy would go into recession
The dogs on the street knew the property bubble would burst
Its a barefaced liar who would claim he/she knew highly educated, highly trained and highly motivated people in the financial sector would would over a 5 year period become total idiots
The dogs on the street knew that as soon as the recession came a high number of businesses operating on the cliff edge would topple over and lead to massive job losses. For hundreds of years now its been boom/bust and what happened here and elsewhere is totally normal.
If we analyse the unemployment figure we will come up with a core 100000 who should be helped more but because so many are screwing the system the resources cannot be directed to them.

We are going through severe corrections in the economy and it cannot be done without pain. The question is, what combination of parties will do the dirty work and set us on the road to recovery. Based on history and what policies are on offer from all sides right now my money is on the present government. I was on the bash FF bandwagon but copped on to myself when I realised there was nothing other than that on offer ! As I see it, FF have the heads down and are facing the hostility and the low polls without making deviating from the course they have set out. In politics that takes balls I can only hope nothing happens to cause an election till 2012

I agree with the first part of your post however FF have done nothing to put the country back on course. they have done nothing to create jobs (see Mary Coughlan). They have made cuts because the bondholders demand it. They have succeeded only in making sure we can continue to borrow money. The national debt now stands at 75b+ NAMA will add another 20 B to this meanwhile they keep their jobs and and their high salaries. When are they going to stop borrowing and start creating a new economy based on sustainable industry? By 2012 we will be in so much debt that there will be no way out of it and any spare money will be spent servicing it.

conorhal

I think that there is an increasing element of 'better the devil you know' creeping into the public's psyche as they watch the opposition flounder. It's not surprising really that in a time of great instability that people reach out for order and familiarity, and there is no older or more familiar form of order than a FF lead government.
The real problem with the oposition as I see it is the lack of pragmatism, shameful pandering to the gallery and the same old unions/labor clientelism of the left. And that is scaring people. We live in a brave new world these days and folks are starting to realize that Labors simplistic unreformed ideological rhetoric is ill equipped for the current economic and political climate.
Worse, there is no likelihood of avoiding Labor's inclusion in a new government and the people can plainly see that FG and Lab are two parties so ideologically divided that their only common policy it seems is to remove FF from government, which would result in a potentally unstable FG/Labor government paralysed and unable to agree on any action.
We need more than an ABFF government, we need leadership, we need fresh thinking and we are not seeing it on the opposition benches, just more politics as usual.

What this country really needs is a new PD style party made up of the best of FF. I would love to see the talent from FF like Mary Hanafin and Brian Lenehan defect to a new party, perhaps one that secured defections from Fine Gael as well like Varadkar and Bruton, thus forming a political movement in this country that for the first time crossed civil war lines to provide unified leadership for the good of the nation. Kind of like a political all stars team that could attract fresh new talent and reward it. (George Lee need not apply)

Spiritoftheseventies

love that line from Ursula Halligan from TV three news just three. Coalition partners "locked in a dance of death". How apt

Liam Byrne

conorhal wrote: »

I think that there is an increasing element of 'better the devil you know' creeping into the public's psyche as they watch the opposition flounder. It's not surprising really that in a time of great instability that people reach out for order and familiarity, and there is no older or more familiar form of order than a FF lead government.
The real problem with the oposition as I see it is the lack of pragmatism, shameful pandering to the gallery and the same old unions/labor clientelism of the left. And that is scaring people. We live in a brave new world these days and folks are starting to realize that Labors simplistic unreformed ideological rhetoric is ill equipped for the current economic and political climate.

Please tell me that you're joking ?

The circus that has been this Government started with Burke and Ahern and their dodgy goings-on, and continues to this day with O'Donoghue, O'Dea and now Sargent.

"Order and familiarity" ? The only "order" that exists is their own version of a new world order, where their mates and lobby groups get looked after and the rest of us get shafted, and the only "familiarity" with their mindset comes from
repeated media "Freedom of Information" requests (which were free, but which are now expensive and edited down).

Give me unproven worth-a-shot "ideology" over downright corruption any day.

Sulmac

fuelinjection wrote: »

Yeah yeah, seen it before actually.
Again I have read nothing new, we Fianna Gaelers will drop taxes and somehow balance the budget with no money coming in. It's called magic.
Look at Greece now, they are a step away from the IMF coming in and running the country and that would be unacceptable for Ireland. I would rather see a revolution.

First of all, their "Jobs Tax Cut" ≠ a drop in taxes like you seem to think.

If you actually read the proposal documents you'd see they plan on making extra revenue (excess revenue) from other means, including by broadening the tax base (as businesses will be obliged to hire new staff who will in turn pay tax themselves) as well as other measures including a carbon tax and windfall tax.

I wouldn't have full confidence in their policies either, but I have a hell of a lot more confidence in Richard Bruton, an economist, than I would in Brian Lenihan, a barrister, in terms of finance.

And, if anything, Fianna Fáil are already turning us into the next Greece without any input from Fine Gael or Labour.

anymore

fuelinjection wrote: »

Fianna Gael/Labour would be a nightmare at the moment.
I am not a fan of the Fianna Fail polices of the last 10 years but at least they are cutting back on spending money. The opposition would raise taxes and start spending money on the public service which is the last thing we need.
They will not say this at the moment as they are expecting a win, but I trust that the Irish peple will not vote them in.

Labour may now be a problem for people who previously happily voted for FG Lab coalition. For some of us, labour is now the politiccal wing of the public sector - though Tds like Sean Sherlock may offer some hope in this regard.

anymore

Perhaps as an emergency measure the EU should be given a certain number of votes in the dail in relation to economic measures. They are keeping us afloat, so why not ?

Spiritoftheseventies

anymore wrote: »

Perhaps as an emergency measure the EU should be given a certain number of votes in the dail in relation to economic measures. They are keeping us afloat, so why not ?

how many votes are you suggesting and how exactly would that work. They would have to be seen to be neutral and I cant see it working as a result

fuelinjection

Sulmac wrote: »

First of all, their "Jobs Tax Cut" ≠ a drop in taxes like you seem to think.
If you actually read the proposal documents you'd see they plan on making extra revenue from other means, including by broadening the tax base (as businesses will be obliged to hire new staff who will in turn pay tax themselves) as well as other measures including a carbon tax and windfall tax.

I "actually" read all of it and it needs cash, money and euroes to carry out. Just the sort of thing we don't have sitting around at the moment. The other taxes would take in tiny amounts of revenue, the cost of collecting them would cancel out the benefits.

Sulmac wrote: »

I wouldn't have full confidence in their policies either, but I have a hell of a lot more confidence in Richard Bruton, an economist, than I would in Brian Lenihan, a barrister, in terms of finance.

Well Fianna Gael had George Lee as a member and decided that they had no need of his expertise as they had Ricard Bruton who of course had predicted our current mess and had told us how to get out of it ????

zootroid

fuelinjection wrote: »

Somebody show me the Fianna Gael solutions to our massive debt problems and I will vote for them. And I mean a written document instead of whinging.

Until then enjoy the Enda Kenny PR-trained smile.

If I recall correctly, FG had a proposal to cut 1.3 billion from the public sector wage bill at the time of the budget, and nobody earning under 30k would have been touched.

FF set out a budget to cut 1.3 billion, but everyone was affected, including those on 30k or less.

That's just one example of how FG's proposals were better. FF chose to ignore them, and hit the lower paid harder than senior civil servants. Hardly fair, is it?

Spiritoftheseventies

zootroid wrote: »

If I recall correctly, FG had a proposal to cut 1.3 billion from the public sector wage bill at the time of the budget, and nobody earning under 30k would have been touched.

FF set out a budget to cut 1.3 billion, but everyone was affected, including those on 30k or less.

That's just one example of how FG's proposals were better. FF chose to ignore them, and hit the lower paid harder than senior civil servants. Hardly fair, is it?

Government appointing a new junior minister in cabinet reshuffle. Will be in charge of the public sector reform by all accounts.

jmayo

billymitchell wrote: »

Over the last few months, I have noticed that even though the governments rating is at an all time low. People all seem to be getting a little disillusioned with the opposition and are beginning to doubt if they would actually do a better job than the greens & FF.

Listening to Lucinda Creighton on the frontline last night trying to get in a bit of party political broadcast on behalf of FG, it struck me as if they would be equally as rudderless and unpopular if they were in power(granted, it was lucinda creighton, maybe not the best person to form a general opinion of the opposition on!!)

Do people here think that if FG/labour were in power at the moment, that we would be much better off?

Lucinda Creighton will not be a minister if Kenny is leader.
She has pi**ed him off too many times and besides there will be enough people ahead of her in the picking list, not based on seniority as some woudl claim, but actaul experience and ability.

fuelinjection wrote: »

Fianna Gael/Labour would be a nightmare at the moment.
I am not a fan of the Fianna Fail polices of the last 10 years but at least they are cutting back on spending money. The opposition would raise taxes and start spending money on the public service which is the last thing we need.
They will not say this at the moment as they are expecting a win, but I trust that the Irish peple will not vote them in.

Yeah try and scare people so that they vote ff?
Listen no matter who is in will have to raise taxes in the future because they will not be able to amke all savings through cuts.
It is only a question of how this will be done.
Thanks to ff/gp it is dressed up as us saving the environment and hits less well off as much as well off.
Sadly poor people feel the cold as well as the rich, although the rich have luxury of fecking off out of here when it gets cold.

Little bit of supposed objectivity with not agreeing with past policies, but still wanting the most inept, unethical bunch of chancers remain in power.
If you think FG with Bruton in Finance (or even as leader) would start increasing public sector spending you must be deluded.
Even Labour will cop on this when they are faced with the seriousness of the situation.

ednwireland wrote: »

i dont remember FG putting anything substantailly different to FF in 2007 (or 2002 for that matter where they were un-electable under noonan)

now i stand to be corrected on that

i guess it may have been slightly less painful but by 2007 the seeds were sown and half grown of this mess would a fg coalition have been tighter on the banks and launched less tax breaks to try and perpetuate the boom, actually i see no evidence that they would

Well all those developers were ff supporters so did FG owe them anything.

zootroid wrote: »

If I recall correctly, FG had a proposal to cut 1.3 billion from the public sector wage bill at the time of the budget, and nobody earning under 30k would have been touched.

FF set out a budget to cut 1.3 billion, but everyone was affected, including those on 30k or less.

That's just one example of how FG's proposals were better. FF chose to ignore them, and hit the lower paid harder than senior civil servants. Hardly fair, is it?

Not alone did ff bring in cuts for people earning less than 30k they also allowed top earners out of the loop, just to really rub it in.