why are we so bad at running a country

blacksmith105

Let me ask you a question , why are we the Irish so bad at running a country ,Lets face it since 1922 apart from the 10 years of the celtic tiger we have had nothing but misery and hardship

The 1920,s , 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960 although we did have a little boom in the late 1960,s and into the mid 1970s as we attracted new industry here
Then the 1980s and 10 years of young talented people getting the boat (which also included me) to anyway outside of ireland . Cant speak for the early ninties as was in england working came back in 1995 and boom the celtic tiger is born and then wallop it died .

For a country that was left intact following the second world war we were still 30 years behind the rest of europe when it came to roads, rail and manufacturing right up to the mid 1990,s
I really think that it is an Irish thing that we really dont want to suceed and our country should really always be in a mess as we feel better when it is
We have one of the best educational systems in the western world and yet we still find it impossible to exploit our position
I do think the catholic church ruled ireland from 1922 until 15 years ago which might explain why we are the way we are
but i just can understand that we have had our country now for nearly 88 years and we still cant make the bloody thing work
Why are we so bad at running a country , just look at Finland,Norway, other small countries similar in size to ireland and see how they have managed to keep up with the rest of europe
Anyway I still love this country and for one think its one of the best to live in
despite all our problems ,i just wish we knew what we were doing

ei.sdraob

because people expect the state to take care of them from cradle to grave

and when the arse wiping doesn't materialize as they expected and the human corrupt and lazy nature surfaces itself in whoever is in power

then the people get disappointed

Sponge Bob

Thankfully our next Taoiseach will be Noel Dempsey and the tiger will once again roar

Sea Sharp

For the last 70 or so years the smart Irish people did the smart thing and emigrated to a better life.
The founders of the Irish state didn't know how to run a country properly and decades of jobs for the boyos and keeping it in the family ensured that things didn't get any better.

MaceFace

Because we don't have a proper political system.
The two main parties are a mirror image of themselves.

Sleepy

• Our education system provides the majority of our children with no understanding of politics or economics.
• We don't require our elected officials to have any understanding of economics or governance.
• Our electoral system has left us vastly over-represented giving local issues far too much priority in national elections.
• We allow a vested interest to have influence over our education system.
• Civil War politics a century old are still a factor - the republican slant of our history curriculum probably doesn't help this.
• It's not in anyone who has the political power to fix any of these issues best interests to fix them.

Welease

Sleepy wrote: »

• Our education system provides the majority of our children with no understanding of politics or economics.
• We don't require our elected officials to have any understanding of economics or governance.
• Our electoral system has left us vastly over-represented giving local issues far too much priority in national elections.
• We allow a vested interest to have influence over our education system.
• Civil War politics a century old are still a factor - the republican slant of our history curriculum probably doesn't help this.
• It's not in anyone who has the political power to fix any of these issues best interests to fix them.

and we seem have a very low expectation of public officials standards, and hold them accountable to even lower standards.
Willie O'Dea/Bertie etc. have stepped well over the line with regards to behaviour but the chances are they would still be voted in again.

Riskymove

For a country that was left intact following the second world war we were still 30 years behind the rest of europe when it came to roads, rail and manufacturing right up to the mid 1990,s

we had no money! its simple enough there, only the EU allowed us to develop infrastructure.

In addition to the early issues with church and politics as out lined above, our size and dispersed small population dont help much

as does a lack of any serious natural resources that we could have gotten gains from (this may change if the energy area ever really gets going with wind or more importantly for us, water)

we have also been really poor over our history of developing an indigenous manufacturing industry....we have basically been dependent on UK, EU and USA for any of our good economic times, largely based recently on being in a good position to atract US firms for entry to EU but our high costs have changed that one big advantage we had

Our electoral system has left us vastly over-represented giving local issues far too much priority in national elections.

this is the single biggest issue as far as national politics goes.

conorhal

I think, ironically, that it may be the result of the repression of our nationalism.

No, please, bear with me...:D

Post independence the Irish state has suffered a severe lack of confidence that has hampered our ability to grow and evolve as a cohesive society and as a people.
This is partly a result of our post colonial hangover that left behind a gaping inferiority complex which has in turn seen us aping our former masters policies, and we have followed a British lead, both economically and socially, for decades.
This lack of confidence is also a product of partition, which has resulted in a complete absence of any pride in our own nationalism due to a collective shame about the violent nationalism of the north that was a product of a nationalistic failure and a fear of offending the Brits.
This inability to ‘celebrate ourselves’ in turn makes it difficulty to engender any civic pride at all at a national level frankly. Our inability to celebrate our own independence with the kind of unity of purpose and pride, for example like the way the American do, is partly out of our fear of offending out neighbors, exacerbating the situation in the North and opening old civil war wounds, because unlike the US we never got a closure on our civil war and it still festers in the northern counties.
In the ideological vacuum of post independence leadership, we the Irish people reached out for any kind of ideology that wasn’t short term and parochial, but rather one that offered a broader all encompassing view of what it meant to be Irish, but didn’t really get it from the state. So people turned to the church instead for national leadership and it’s ability forge a unified Irish post civil war identity through faith, because as usual, our politicians weren’t up to the job.
In a way it was the states failure to offer the people a coherent narrative for the nation that led to a ‘church state,’ and so in a way I feel sorry for the Church, no really I do. It was the church that had to step into the vacuum and create a nation, and thus make all the mistakes that a government should have been making in nation building as it provided education, hospitals and a basic social infrastructure for the communities around Ireland.
The state in abdicating its responsibilies, politicized the church in a manner that it need not have been, had it not been forced into that situation, it might bee a very different institution to the one it is today, closer to Colmcille than it is to Comiskey.

the_syco

blacksmith105 wrote: »

For a country that was left intact following the second world war we were still 30 years behind the rest of europe when it came to roads, rail and manufacturing right up to the mid 1990,s

Three words: The Marshall Plan.

blacksmith105 wrote: »

i just can understand that we have had our country now for nearly 88 years and we still cant make the bloody thing work

We have our country for 88 years, but the politic parties are still based on civil war politics, it would seem.

=-=

In France, etc, they look with pride at the French resistance during WW2, and most other countries look with pride at what they did. When the war ended, so to did the resistance. We fought the British for a long time and never became totally free. When the british left most of the country, some fought on, and when ceasefires were finally called, the country is still divided.

This, and the fact that politics is based on history 88 years ago, means that the entire system is muddied.

I'm thinking that until they cop on, and start freshly, we'll always be looking back, instead of forward.

Dubh Geannain

Sleepy wrote: »

• Our education system provides the majority of our children with no understanding of politics or economics.
• We don't require our elected officials to have any understanding of economics or governance.
• Our electoral system has left us vastly over-represented giving local issues far too much priority in national elections.
• We allow a vested interest to have influence over our education system.
• Civil War politics a century old are still a factor - the republican slant of our history curriculum probably doesn't help this.
• It's not in anyone who has the political power to fix any of these issues best interests to fix them.

Bang on. Plus:

• The championing of the cute hure :cool:

blacksmith105

personally i think devalera had a lot to do with holding this country back with his image of ireland as an isolated island and his comments re the death of adolf hitler at the end of ww2 .

nyarlothothep

Sleepy wrote: »

• Our education system provides the majority of our children with no understanding of politics or economics.

What about CSPE and business studies?

MaceFace

blacksmith105 wrote: »

personally i think devalera had a lot to do with holding this country back with his image of ireland as an isolated island and his comments re the death of adolf hitler at the end of ww2 .

Hmmmmm.......

While I don't hold any esteem for Dev, I don't think you can blame someone who died 35 years ago for where we are today.
And if you are talking about sending his condolences, there were many other countries that done exactly the same as the true extent of the horrors were not known until after the war.

Maybe this thread shows the bigger problem - why are we so negative in our views. Listening to the views, you would think we were a basket case, but the fact is we are distinctly average.

Sleepy

nyarlothothep wrote: »

What about CSPE and business studies?

I can't comment on CSPE as it wasn't taught when I was in school.

As far as business studies goes, at Junior Cert level, it doesn't cover much, if any, economics.

omahaid

I put the blame on the woman interviewed by RTE news last week in Limerick on the Willie O'Dea topic. She said he was framed!! Seriously, framed!

As long as this mentality exists (i.e. some politicians can do no wrong no matter how wrong), we will get governments more concerned with local matters and sorting out potholes and medical cards than running the country.

ednwireland

omahaid wrote: »

I put the blame on the woman interviewed by RTE news last week in Limerick on the Willie O'Dea topic. She said he was framed!! Seriously, framed!

As long as this mentality exists (i.e. some politicians can do no wrong no matter how wrong), we will get governments more concerned with local matters and sorting out potholes and medical cards than running the country.

the funny thing is, i see people here saying that politicians are too wrapped up in local issues

meanwhile ......................................over in the uk

Web-based democracy activists have kicked off the first round of a project to see if MPs keep their promises.

Meetings are being arranged up and down the country to draw up lists of issues important to locals.

Once compiled, prospective MPs will be quizzed on their views about the issues and the responses recorded.

After the election, the voting behaviour of MPs will be monitored to see if the policies they back or vote against match their words.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8530481.stm

cant win can you

omahaid

I think you can win . We should have people responsible for managing the country (i.e. TD's) and people responsible for local issues (councillors). There should be a clear divide between the responsibilities of both.

max 73

because we are a joke.......the only good thing we can organise is parties and how not to do things

MaceFace

omahaid wrote: »

I put the blame on the woman interviewed by RTE news last week in Limerick on the Willie O'Dea topic. She said he was framed!! Seriously, framed!

As long as this mentality exists (i.e. some politicians can do no wrong no matter how wrong), we will get governments more concerned with local matters and sorting out potholes and medical cards than running the country.

Actually, that is very interesting indeed because go to Kerry and ask the locals about the Healy-Rae's and you will get a staunch defence of them no matter what they done.

It was quite a contrast last night on six one where the locals in Ballbriggan all thought Trever Seargant was wrong and agreed that he had to go. I just don't think you get the country people being as progressive in nature and are happy to go with what they know.

bullpost

Are we that bad? Not saying we don't have serious problems but we do love a good whinge.

This index , based on a series of measurements , including economic, has us in the top 20 countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legatum_Prosperity_Index

Tipp Man

Well our country is run by muppets in government who are only interested in me fein and how much money they can make, below that you have a bunch of muppets in the high levels of the civil service who actually run the country and are only interested in me fein and how much money they can make.

Of course to make it seem fair these guys have to pay their subordinates a ridiculous wage to justify their own ridiculous wages and on and on

DJDC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

A contraversial issue no doubt but there may be a correlation between the governments that a nations elects and the intellience of the electorate. And leading on from this, the strength of a nations economy. Greece and ireland are both the two lowest European countries.

ardmacha

Lets face it since 1922 apart from the 10 years of the celtic tiger we have had nothing but misery and hardship

Is there not a touch of the Béal Bocht here to give an excuse for further ranting. Ireland has been the fastest growing country in Europe since 1960, with a couple of periods when we took the piss and paid a price. Of course the experience has not been entirely positive, but "misery and hardship" is putting it a bit strong. Haiti has misery and hardship, some graduates having to leave Ireland well qualified for jobs elsewhere is regrettable, but not quite in the same league.

There are interesting points in this thread, but other "we're all banjaxed" posts are about as helpful as "we're the richest country in world" posts in 2007.

SLUSK

It looks like only Scandinavian people can run a country properly. Sorry I was incorrect, it is the Swiss who really knows how to run a country properly. Swiss is arguably the most safe, free and prosperous society in Europe.

View

SLUSK wrote: »

It looks like only Scandinavian people can run a country properly. Sorry I was incorrect, it is the Swiss who really knows how to run a country properly. Swiss is arguably the most safe, free and prosperous society in Europe.

I'd say it is more a case of the Swiss knew how to run a country but have lost their way. Banning the building of minarets is questionable to start with and when there are only around two in all of Switzerland it is serious over-reaction.

View

omahaid wrote: »

I put the blame on the woman interviewed by RTE news last week in Limerick on the Willie O'Dea topic. She said he was framed!! Seriously, framed!

Well, Willie was framed. The only thing is he framed himself.

Overheal

I get a sneaky feeling a lot of it has to do with Ireland's long established history of mass emigration. Those who Can: Leave.

Look at the current state: 3rd level graduated students, hungry for work, and now they cant find any here. What do they do? Become politicians? Ha ha, no. They leave.

Most everyone with the Drive and the Ambition goes abroad to find better opportunities. What you have left is a bunch of self-interested pricks to run the place.

AlekSmart

I'd say it is more a case of the Swiss knew how to run a country but have lost their way. Banning the building of minarets is questionable to start with and when there are only around two in all of Switzerland it is serious over-reaction.

Switzerland has an impressive track-record of getting it`s self-governance right.

It has done so in a manner which managed to recognize diversity in many diverse fields.

However the Swiss ace-card has always been its ability to enforce its national ethos on those area`s which even remoyely appeared to pose a threat to Swiss stability.

Make no mistake but the Minaret issue is but a media-fest,and the real long term elements are being addressed in a way we Irish could scarcely comprehend..ie: somebody is taking a VERY long term view and making informed decisions using all of the information available.

There is nothing of the Super Race about the Swiss,but they do manage their affairs at a level waaay beyond what we can achieve.

An example of this is here.....

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2010/0225/business/40-take-on-second-jobs-113049.html

.....and from that article the following....

Mr Price added: "HR [human resources] laws need to be looked at to ensure that no one is breaking the law by working too many hours in one week. Another problem you face is employee fatigue and this may well become a health and safety concern, so it’s something that both the employee and the employer need to address."

Here we see a small peripheral country mired deep in recession with a Government apparently rooted to the spot or otherwise deeply involved in preventing entreprenure`s from providing new jobs.

Yet,this same "Government" (I use the term advisedly) is making it very clear that it will pursue Employers AND Employees for working TOO much (Currently in excess of 48Hrs weekly,averaged over 17 weeks)

Its all very well for the Bill Cullen`s of this world to advocate and encourage a "Productive" ethic in young people,but if those same young people now face a serious legal penalty,up to and including €1,500 in fines,simply for working then the game really is up !

dan_d

Overheal wrote: »

I get a sneaky feeling a lot of it has to do with Ireland's long established history of mass emigration. Those who Can: Leave.

Look at the current state: 3rd level graduated students, hungry for work, and now they cant find any here. What do they do? Become politicians? Ha ha, no. They leave.

Most everyone with the Drive and the Ambition goes abroad to find better opportunities. What you have left is a bunch of self-interested pricks to run the place.

Very true. There's a number of reasons I reckon....we're only ruling ourselves about 80 years, compared to the centuries most of Europe has on us, we're very parochial (been beating that drum a lot lately!), We insist on looking to the UK for example regardless of the fact that there are systems that work far better all around Europe, we're great at beating each other down, our left hand generally doesn't know what our right is doing....

I could keep going. But here's a question for you. Do you think governing parties should have a minimum quota of members from different professions? For example for a party to get in Gov, should there be a person with background in say each of the following....teaching, law, accounting, medicine, technical (engineering/IT). Say a quota of one or two from each and maybe a couple other professions. Would it encourage more variety in the parties?

What do you all think of that notion?

ilovelamp2000

SLUSK wrote: »

Swiss is arguably the most safe, free and prosperous society in Europe.

Why do you think that is ?

billybigunz

Ireland has been held back by it's rural, catholic society. As much as people might loathe it, the protestant classes in South Dublin know how to live.

Look back on any contentious referendum or election and look at the results in south Dublin compared to the rest of the country.

simplistic2

Because there is NO country its a concept like patriotism, its not based in reality. There is only lots of delusional people living on a big rock that relentlessly believe that a small group of people called politicians have their best interests at heart.

Running the county....Ha gimme a break!

Liam Byrne

billybigunz wrote: »

Ireland has been held back by it's rural, catholic society. As much as people might loathe it, the protestant classes in South Dublin know how to live.

What a load of croc!

Being "rural" or Catholic has no bearing on whether you're happy to be ridden roughshod by self-interested con-men.

And for the record, "South Dublin" isn't the only urban area in Ireland.

I think part of the problem goes back to when taxes and rent went abroad, to England.

Ever since then, the acceptability of "getting away with it" (a.k.a. the "cute hoor/fair play" has stuck, even though nowadays those "getting away with it" are conning US out of OUR money.

strathspey

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What a load of croc!

Being "rural" or Catholic has no bearing on whether you're happy to be ridden roughshod by self-interested con-men.

Actually I think that the person who you have just dismissed might actually be onto something. I think Catholism has alot to do with delinquency in financial and economic matters. Lets just remind ourselves as to who are the PIIGS?......Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain. With the exception of Greece, although not too far removed, what do all the others have in common?......they're all fundamentally Catholic.

FlutterinBantam

blacksmith105 wrote: »

Let me ask you a question , why are we the Irish so bad at running a country ,Lets face it since 1922 apart from the 10 years of the celtic tiger we have had nothing but misery and hardship

The 1920,s , 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960 although we did have a little boom in the late 1960,s and into the mid 1970s as we attracted new industry here
Then the 1980s and 10 years of young talented people getting the boat (which also included me) to anyway outside of ireland . Cant speak for the early ninties as was in england working came back in 1995 and boom the celtic tiger is born and then wallop it died .

For a country that was left intact following the second world war we were still 30 years behind the rest of europe when it came to roads, rail and manufacturing right up to the mid 1990,s
I really think that it is an Irish thing that we really dont want to suceed and our country should really always be in a mess as we feel better when it is
We have one of the best educational systems in the western world and yet we still find it impossible to exploit our position
I do think the catholic church ruled ireland from 1922 until 15 years ago which might explain why we are the way we are
but i just can understand that we have had our country now for nearly 88 years and we still cant make the bloody thing work
Why are we so bad at running a country , just look at Finland,Norway, other small countries similar in size to ireland and see how they have managed to keep up with the rest of europe
Anyway I still love this country and for one think its one of the best to live in
despite all our problems ,i just wish we knew what we were doing

Little bit cynical but the reason is we just can't manage things.

What do I mean by that....

Just park your car in any supermarket car park and observe.

plenty of signs saying 'set down only', 'family spaces' 'disabled spaces' etc etc .All there designed to give everyone a better experience.

just sit back and watch the gob****es who couldn't give a fcuk,rolling up first spot they see in they go, even thought there are numerous legit spots for them,happy in the knowledge that no one will confront them, no penalty, no thought about why the sign is there in the first place,they couldn't give a fcuk about anybody but themselves.


Now that's a little microcosm of Ireland as a whole.

Try it some time and you will see for yourself.:D

irishh_bob

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Little bit cynical but the reason is we just can't manage things.

What do I mean by that....

Just park your car in any supermarket car park and observe.

plenty of signs saying 'set down only', 'family spaces' 'disabled spaces' etc etc .All there designed to give everyone a better experience.

just sit back and watch the gob****es who couldn't give a fcuk,rolling up first spot they see in they go, even thought there are numerous legit spots for them,happy in the knowledge that no one will confront them, no penalty, no thought about why the sign is there in the first place,they couldn't give a fcuk about anybody but themselves.


Now that's a little microcosm of Ireland as a whole.

Try it some time and you will see for yourself.:D

i would add to that by pointing to all the litter we see thrown around the countryside , while we are a dirty race , the fact that thier is more or less zero detterant contributes to the cause of the problem

changes

irishh_bob wrote: »

i would add to that by pointing to all the litter we see thrown around the countryside , while we are a dirty race , the fact that thier is more or less zero detterant contributes to the cause of the problem

We can be an unmannerly bunch alright. I remember going to glasgow about 10 years ago and was amazed that people queued in chippies, taxi ranks and even some bars.

Not a chance in hell of people queueing in a chippie in this country on a saturday night.

Also, i was out driving this morning in donegal and someone just left about 5 or 6 big black binbags of rubbish up against a pole out in the middle of nowhere.

The social pressure isn't there yet in this country.... we shouldn't be tolerating anybody dumping rubbish from their cars, people skipping queues, scamming the dole, claiming state benefits they are not entitled to and most certainly not voting for people unless we are satisfied they are of the highest integrity.

RachPie

I'm no expert, but I think the catholic church put the country backwards in a lot of respects. Apart from that, the government swindling taxpayers out of gazillions to pay for islands and whatnot *cough..Haughey* while the country is in a recession couldn't have helped. I think it's pure greed from the people who are in power - I personally think they don't really care for the wellbeing of the people who live in the state. If they were in any way serious about running the country and not just lining their own back pockets they'd do a lot of things differently.

Take the healthcare sector for example. It's a complete joke. I have experienced it. I've also experienced the Italian healthcare service. Amazing. Why don't they just take tips off of other, successful countries?!

Ah, but that would cost money...

AlekSmart

Take the healthcare sector for example. It's a complete joke. I have experienced it. I've also experienced the Italian healthcare service. Amazing. Why don't they just take tips off of other, successful countries?!

Anybody who used our membership of the EU to do a bit of travel within it will know exactly the differences we speak of here.

IMO the essential and MAJOR difference is the total refusal of the Irish Physche to even contemplate the principle of "The Common or Greater Good" in any way,shape or form.

This has led the country along a winding,potholed road where we constantly change direction and speed in order to accomodate the needs of the most beligerent driver.

The only thing which will save this countrys economy is the accquisition of Efficiency as a desirable concept.

However,currently our very definite principles of Government all tend towards slowing everything right down.

30 KPH speed limits without any reference to the current necessity for them.
New Bridges over the Liffey which then are rendered unusable to the very traffic flows which need them.
Restrictions on commercial traffic flows with no alternatives made available.
A rabid official committment to crack-pot Health & Safety rules across the entire commercial strata,which has erased a huge amount of individual motivation from the workforce.
Full committment to lunatic restrictions such as the EU Working Time Directive,which many other member states merely nod at and continue business as usual...we are committed to fining and locking up those who work too hard or too long....end of the recession in sight ??....I very much doubt it.

In short we as a country need to get focused on the atributes which can rebuild our shattered confidence and imposing half-thought out schemes like the WTD and 30Kph limit simply don`t wash as examplars of a forward looking efficient productive society.

maninasia

There's not enough private enterprise in Ireland, that's the main reason young people need to leave in cycles every decade or so. The country itself isn't run too badly. Public services could be run better also but I think that's not the main point. People need to work harder and be willing to take risks, most Irish aren't like that (not only an Irish thing, many cultures worldwide are like this).

There's no real influence from the 'newness' of the country (Ireland is a country that has existed under a stable government with institutions for 100s of years, just some of that was as part of the UK). Countries in Asia have made huge strides forward in decades.
Catholic church infuence is pretty much finished.

There should be a more civic minded populace but it's really economic stability that holds the country back, probably from ignorance of business and economics in the government ruling classes, which come from civil servant or political family backgrounds.