Civic revolution

nyarlothothep

If the political system in Ireland is rotten to the core and the future is bleak bordering on unsalvageable, do you think there is any probability of a revolution in Ireland, to the effect that where we have no leaders, people will take the lead themselves?

Liam Byrne

Wishful thinking, TBH.

The fact that the "cute-hoorism" and outright corruption and contempt for the public and for ethics and accountability doesn't get punished at the polls means that there's a significant proportion of the country who have no concept of how a fair and ethical country should be run.

Until that's fixed (i.e. a significant vote at the next election based on the track record of all parties - and more to the point, individuals) there's no point in changing the system, because it would be a case of rinse and repeat.

nyarlothothep

hmmm I think that things are just going to get increasingly worse and that the country's survival as a modern 1st world nation depends on a radical overhaul of priorities, a major shift in the culture.

View

nyarlothothep wrote: »

If the political system in Ireland is rotten to the core and the future is bleak bordering on unsalvageable, do you think there is any probability of a revolution in Ireland, to the effect that where we have no leaders, people will take the lead themselves?

No. There will be elections eventually and the electorate will have their chance to vote for their choice then. And, their choice can be either any of the existing parties or even a new one, if some of the electorate want to set one up.

Maybe the electorate just don't want revolutionary change?

fontanalis

A benevolent dictatorship would be better than a revolution. Do you trust most of the muppets in the country to take part in a revolution, it would be like a Frankenstein film with a load of villagers with pitchforks. Everyone has their shot on election day but they kep letting the country down.

GospelGroupie

Can we really afford to wait for the next General Election? It really is too far away, there's too much at risk by letting the present government continue to rule.
I do not favour anarchy, long-term or short-term. I don't like any notion of dictatorship (no matter how benevolent) or any shade of communism, but I do think that we have to, as a society, take measures to remove this particular government from office now. I can't say that we will get anyone better to replace them, but that is irrelevent. We'll take our chances.

What we must do is literally surround Leinster House in our thousands, preventing any member of the Dáil from entering the House. If they can't sit as a parliament then they cannot function. it would not take very long before Cowen will have to take a spin out to Phoenix Park to ask Mary to dissolve the Dáil.

How likely is this to happen? Not very, unfortunately.

jimmycrackcorm

But who will fix the potholes?

Liam Byrne

GospelGroupie wrote: »

I do not favour anarchy, long-term or short-term.

Anarchy is a movement against law and order, however since this government believe that law and order doesn't apply to them, I'm not sure the term anarchy would apply.

nyarlothothep

A lot of the problem imo stems from the assumption that "people are idiots" and that no one will do anything. Well, how do you know a lot of people are idiots? Do you have evidence which demonstrates this beyond an election result, the reasons for which may be complex and varied? Yes its tempting to think that most people are idiots but its an experiential and subjective judgement if not a form of ego boosting generated by a general and justified frustration with the current state of affairs. The second problem is again imo due to the fact that forms of community development are severly hampered by individualist consumerism.

hallelujajordan

GospelGroupie wrote: »

I do not favour anarchy, long-term or short-term. I don't like any notion of dictatorship (no matter how benevolent) or any shade of communism. . . . .

How do you feel about democracy ?

This government was democratically elected, only three years ago and still have at least two years to run . . ! They have a mandate, given to them by the people who you are calling on to revolt !

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

How do you feel about democracy ?

This government was democratically elected, only three years ago and still have at least two years to run . . ! They have a mandate, given to them by the people who you are calling on to revolt !

Would you be as voiciferous in defence of this "mandate" if it were FG that were making a complete bollox of things ?

hallelujajordan

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The second problem is again imo due to the fact that forms of community development are severly hampered by individualist consumerism.

Quite, but yet you blame the government and you are expecting the 'individual consumers' to take control and run the country . . . ? ? ?

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Would you be as voiciferous in defence of this "mandate" if it were FG that were making a complete bollox of things ?

Yes I would . . I believe in democracy regardless of which side of the house I am sitting . . don't you ?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes I would . . I believe in democracy regardless of which side of the house I am sitting . . don't you ?

Absolutely.

I also believe in justice, ethics, honesty and accountability, all of which are a significant part of a democracy.

Do you ?

Opposition to a lack of the above is far more essential than opposition for the sake of it.

GospelGroupie

I too believe in Democracy, but Fianna Fáil themselves have castrated the parliamentary model of democracy that this country was built upon. They seldom seek consensus from opposition parties, or put forward their policies for scrutiny. They steamroll their disasterous and often self-serving bills through the Oireachtas. They do not respect our version of democracy, why should we respect theirs.

oppenheimer1

nyarlothothep wrote: »

If the political system in Ireland is rotten to the core and the future is bleak bordering on unsalvageable, do you think there is any probability of a revolution in Ireland, to the effect that where we have no leaders, people will take the lead themselves?

Is it groundhog day? On what must be the hundredth thread on "a revolution" there in no chance of one, and we'd be far far worse off if there was.

Red_Marauder

GospelGroupie wrote: »

What we must do is literally surround Leinster House in our thousands, preventing any member of the Dáil from entering the House. If they can't sit as a parliament then they cannot function.

This reminds me of being in primary school when the 'townies' put rubber bands around their fingers in group solidarity, and conspired to steal the school keys. It's school boy rhetoric... what is all of this rubbish about surrounding Leinster House and causing a revolution? It's worse than making personal threats over the internet.

I mean, if you're so confident that people want what you want, why don't you run in a political election? Or did you run last June?

simonj

Look, we keep electing the same two parties time after time expecting a different result.
There is no discernable difference between two cheeks of the one arse other than family ties dating back to 1916, FFS Eoin Ryan has been given an important position in London for no other reason than accident of birth.

As for the minor parties Labour have 3 TDs under 56, so they are hardly a radical alternative - especially as they are increasingly FG lite as the radicals of the 50's, 60's and 70's age gracefuly into high paid pensions.

The Greens have - and I really mean this - due to the TDs and the executive - failed in an abysmal fashion, they have never-as a party-stood up to the larger partner in the Dail.

SF are 4 green fields, archaic politics in the republic with little vision in an Larger EU sense.

PDs are dead, and why Harney remains a minister with our health service is beyond me.

Independents, well - mostly geneticaly modified FF.

We base so much on parish pump politics that Gombeenism is built into it.
We already had a revolution - What we now urgently need a reworking of the electoral system which is a 90 year old dynastic duality not fit for purpose.

Only one political grouping on the Island have electoral reform as a primary policy.

anymore

nyarlothothep wrote: »

If the political system in Ireland is rotten to the core and the future is bleak bordering on unsalvageable, do you think there is any probability of a revolution in Ireland, to the effect that where we have no leaders, people will take the lead themselves?

Try to organise a group of ordinary people to email politicians about some issue you all agree on and see how few actually do it !
I am afraid the irish people seem to be fairly apathetic :mad:

LeoB

anymore wrote: »

Try to organise a group of ordinary people to email politicians about some issue you all agree on and see how few actually do it !
I am afraid the irish people seem to be fairly apathetic :mad:

Agree with this.

My neighbours often ask me to lobby T.D about something they wont do it themselves.

As Jean Kennedy Smyth said when she was leaving Irelan after her stint as ambassador for U.S "She was stunned at our lack of outrage" and I think we have not changed a lot, just got more bitter.

I am not sure a change of Government is the answer but more a change of politican. I think there are some good T.Ds in the Dail, Olwyn Enright f.G, Darragh O'Brien F.F. They are young, energetic and fresh which is what we need with a different style to what we are used to

simonj

LeoB wrote: »

Agree with this.

My neighbours often ask me to lobby T.D about something they wont do it themselves.

As Jean Kennedy Smyth said when she was leaving Irelan after her stint as ambassador for U.S "She was stunned at our lack of outrage" and I think we have not changed a lot, just got more bitter.

I am not sure a change of Government is the answer but more a change of politican. I think there are some good T.Ds in the Dail, Olwyn Enright f.G, Darragh O'Brien F.F. They are young, energetic and fresh which is what we need with a different style to what we are used to

I felt that before, but have found that changing the politicians in this country is of no use.
We have a real problem - a serious problem - with dynastic politics

We really need to address the electorial system to effect change, but for the political caste to move away from the current sttus quo would be turkeys voting for Xmass.

Mr O Brien was co-opted on the back of GV Wrights drunk driving injuring a pedestrian, FF ensured, despite scandal, that they got their person in place.

Olwyn Enright, daughter of a TD/Senator, married an FG Senator who is now a TD.

Politics is not, and should not be a family business.

We need change, to move away from two cheeks of the one arse

Red_Marauder

simonj wrote: »

Mr O Brien was co-opted on the back of GV Wrights drunk driving injuring a pedestrian, FF ensured, despite scandal, that they got their person in place.

I think the word you are searching for is democratically elected.

Olwyn Enright, daughter of a TD/Senator, married an FG Senator who is now a TD.

Care to explain this random insertion? Were you the one who put forward the idea of placing democratic infringements on the rights of relatives to run for election on these boards recently?

djpbarry

GospelGroupie wrote: »

... I do think that we have to, as a society, take measures to remove this particular government from office now. I can't say that we will get anyone better to replace them, but that is irrelevent.

Oh, I think most would argue that it is quite relevant. What exactly would be the point in ‘overthrowing the regime’ if we’re only to end up with something worse?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

LeoB

simonj wrote: »

Mr O Brien was co-opted on the back of GV Wrights drunk driving injuring a pedestrian, FF ensured, despite scandal, that they got their person in place.

Olwyn Enright, daughter of a TD/Senator, married an FG Senator who is now a TD.

Darragh and Olwyn were both democratically elected. I have had numerours meeting with politicans over the last 20 - 22 years and have found Darragh O'Brien a breath of fresh air. I have met Ms Enright once and found her to be a very nice person, very capable and intelligent.

I believe rightly or wrongly these are the type of people we need in politics. Electoral change will still see idiots elected. The people who complain about these idiots will still give them a vote.

Politics is to local in Ireland and to change that will be so difficult.
You ask the people in Mayo not vote for Michael Ring, the people in South Kerry not to vote for Jackie Healy-Rea and they will laugh at you because they get things done locally.

I do however think there should be only 2 sides during an election like U.S Democrat or Republican. There is still room in their for the Green lobby and the Labour people. There is so little between the parties anyway

skearon

nyarlothothep wrote: »

If the political system in Ireland is rotten to the core and the future is bleak bordering on unsalvageable, do you think there is any probability of a revolution in Ireland, to the effect that where we have no leaders, people will take the lead themselves?

No, the right policies are being implemented which will result in economic recovery.

This is clear from the commentary from numerous international experts who all praise what Brian Lenehan has done

Liam Byrne

skearon wrote: »

No, the right policies are being implemented which will result in economic recovery.

This is clear from the commentary from numerous international experts who all praise what Brian Lenehan has done

The international experts are happy that we've done "something", and they don't care as long as we don't drag down the euro.

Where that leaves the Irish public, they don't care.

Red_Marauder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The international experts are happy that we've done "something", and they don't care as long as we don't drag down the euro.

Where that leaves the Irish public, they don't care.

Greece have done "something" - they haven't done enough. Neither have Spain and Portugal. Worryingly, it is the United Kingdom who is also following their general trend, not Ireland.
The international experts are quite confident about Ireland, it's not a matter that they would have been happy with just anything we did, their confidence has at times been quite unequivocal.

I was quite relieved to see on TV recently that Italy had replace Ireland in a "PIGS" demonstration taking palce in Athens.

I don't particularly like that acronym, but I certainly don't think a civic revolution would do anything at all for keeping us out of it... it is quite the opposite.

rightwingdub

fontanalis wrote: »

A benevolent dictatorship would be better than a revolution. Do you trust most of the muppets in the country to take part in a revolution, it would be like a Frankenstein film with a load of villagers with pitchforks. Everyone has their shot on election day but they kep letting the country down.

If only the IMF could take over the country then your wish may just come true:D:D, I'd have no problem with an IMF takeover of the country, Ireland needs a serious dosage of financial shock therapy.

rightwingdub

LeoB wrote: »

I am not sure a change of Government is the answer but more a change of politican. I think there are some good T.Ds in the Dail, Olwyn Enright f.G, Darragh O'Brien F.F. They are young, energetic and fresh which is what we need with a different style to what we are used to

Olwyn Enright is a dynasty politician, why do Irish people keep electing dynasty politicians?

Nick_oliveri

A couple of friends commented to me that Bertie was a great lad altogether and they'd vote for him again. I was aghast, "ah sure all the good he did". These are in their twenties.

My Ma implied more or less the same thing on Monday. "We could have worse". But it is Worse.

Bertie, the true Champion of the World indeed. This is the mindset supposed "logical" people are up against. And there are plenty of them. In recent years other parties could be taken as equally useless. So this is all we have got and we have to live with it? Bollocks. Its a damn shame that there is no democratic/political evolution in this world. The two/three party dictatorship. Pandering to interests like the vitners, while we just say "oh shure that's just the way it is".

Promises made should be legally binding, "justice" should constantly be re-evaluated along with healthcare. Accountability FFS, who haz it? Transparency? Yeah very unlikely. Notice I use the new Boards group buzzwords. They are actually quite successful in this context also.

People in Ireland like to forget things easily, swayed by a cheeky smile or a real Oirish accent. So yes, this is it, and always will be.

ETA: there will be no revolution in this Country. Everything will be forgotten soon, again.

skearon

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The international experts are happy that we've done "something", and they don't care as long as we don't drag down the euro.

Where that leaves the Irish public, they don't care.

Without correct economic policies Ireland would not be able to continue to borrow €500 million per week to fund welfare and public service salaries.

Every €1b in interest is the equivalent to 6% of the welfare budget, or 21,500 teacher salaries.

Red_Marauder

rightwingdub wrote: »

Olwyn Enright is a dynasty politician, why do Irish people keep electing dynasty politicians?

Why do so many Internet posters seem to 'know better' than thousands of the working, walking, talking, thinking, voting public?

simonj

Red, I never questioned the sincerity of O Brien or Creighton, but I do not believe they represent any great change

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I think the word you are searching for is democratically elected.

No, Mr O Brien was appointed to his seat in council after his mentor, GV Wright, injured a woman while drunk driving, GV had to resign and O Brien was appointed to the seat, then the FF machine got behind him and got him into the Dail

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Care to explain this random insertion? Were you the one who put forward the idea of placing democratic infringements on the rights of relatives to run for election on these boards recently?

With regards Ms Creighton, it is more of the same BS - dynastic politics within a family caste, hardly random when she was mentioned as an example of future politics in the country within the thread.

I did not post to infringe peoples democratic rights,
so please dont imply that I did - I dont put words in your mouth, so dont put them in mine.

Our system is a 90 year perpetuation of a 2 party system that is unfit for purpose.
The fact that we have so many 2nd and 3rd generation politicians from the one caste in politics goes to show how predisposed constituancy PR STV is to electing family scions to daddys seat.
Politics in this Island to be inclusive needs to be more representitive, not from the same dynasties.

We need change, and to do that we need to move away from politics as a family business.
That kind of thinking leads to apathy

Just replacing FF with FG will not make any real change, we have tried it before.

To do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different result is not the way ahead.

Red_Marauder

simonj wrote: »

With regards Ms Creighton, it is more of the same BS - dynastic politics within a family caste, hardly random when she was mentioned as an example of future politics in the country at the start of the thread.

Lucinda Creightons people are Mayo stock farmers. Maybe you mean Olwyn Enright.

I did not post to infringe peoples democratic rights,
so please dont imply that I did - I dont put words in your mouth, so dont put them in mine.

I am merely asking whether you are the same poster who suggested infringements towards the typical democratic office rights of all potential candidates. One new horizons (is it? i can't remember the groups exact name at this moment) poster mentioned that recently, I just wonder if it is their policy.

The fact that we have so many 2nd and 3rd generation politicians from the one caste in politics goes to show how predisposed constituancy PR STV is to electing family scions to daddys seat.

To paraphrase Scott Brown, it isn't daddy's seat, it is the people's seat. What makes you think you know better than the people?

I happen to have grown up about a few miles from Birr where Olwyn Enright is from. She is very highly regarded and I genuinely believe that if her people were teachers or bookmakers or hill farmers she would still have been elected. She is an outstanding local politician, and quite a capable national one too.

In fact there are more solictors/ legally qualified people in her family than there ever were TDs, ar you trying to say that's a caste system as well? People take inspiration from their parents and elders all the time. It doesn't infer a caste system, that's rubbish. This isn't India.

djpbarry

simonj wrote: »

No, Mr O Brien was appointed to his seat in council after his mentor, GV Wright, injured a woman while drunk driving, GV had to resign and O Brien was appointed to the seat, then the FF machine got behind him and got him into the Dail
...
With regards Ms Creighton, it is more of the same BS - dynastic politics within a family caste, hardly random when she was mentioned as an example of future politics in the country within the thread.

But they were both democratically elected to their seats, were they not?

simonj wrote: »

Our system is a 90 year perpetuation of a 2 party system that is unfit for purpose.
The fact that we have so many 2nd and 3rd generation politicians from the one caste in politics goes to show how predisposed constituancy PR STV is to electing family scions to daddys seat.
Politics in this Island to be inclusive needs to be more representitive, not from the same dynasties.

We need change, and to do that we need to move away from politics as a family business.
That kind of thinking leads to apathy

I think you’re deliberately exaggerating the ‘family business’ angle to suit your own political agenda (it just happens to be one of Amhrán Nua’s central policies), but anyway, what do you propose we do about it? Prevent individuals from standing for election if they have (had) a family member in office? Furthermore, a “political family” is not necessarily a bad thing; Garret Fitzgerald, for example, was of political stock

As regards apathy, too late - we’re already there. I would guess that, relative to other European countries, Ireland is quite apathetic towards politics. The FF/FG domination of politics in this country has no doubt contributed to this apathy, but, conversely, the electorate’s apathy has no doubt contributed to this domination.

Apathy <=> Fianna Fáil/Gael domination