Revised Boards.ie Terms Of Use, due to go live March 1, 2010

Darragh

Hi all,

Following the feedback we received about the new Terms of Use governing this site, we have revised them and have published the revised version here for you:

http://www.boards.ie/terms/tou_51.php

You should read these Terms of Use as they govern your use of Boards.ie. Based on your feedback, we have made the following changes:

• We have clarified the issues about copyright over submissions to boards.ie and putting your work on it - there is a comprehensive thread in the Photography Forum here explaining and highlighting these changes.

• We have clarified the issues over submissions to Boards.ie and about Boards.ie - this was raised here

• We have clarified how someone can remove "original creative material" that they posted - this was raised here and here.

• We have clarified the responsibility you have for the security of your password - this was raised here.

• We have clarified how someone can close their account. This was raised here.

The existing terms of use - still available here - remain active for comparison and will do so until this revision comes into place 7 days after this post - i.e. Monday March 1, 2010

The current Privacy Policy remains unchanged.

If you notice any mistakes, spelling errors or the like, or there is anything in this revision that you feel we have not addressed, please do post it below. We will respond to all constructive, relevant posts.

For those wondering where we got these, these TOU were drawn up by TJ McIntyre working with ourselves. TJ is a Lecturer in the School of Law, University College Dublin, Consultant with Merrion Legal Solicitors and chairman of civil rights group Digital Rights Ireland.

Please note, Site Guidelines and Forum Charters should also be taken to govern your continued use of Boards.ie.

Thanks a million for your help and for your time

Darragh

Boards.ie Communications Manager
hello@boards.ie

Pacing Mule

Looks like a lot of work went into the amendments Darragh. Just want to say that not all boards of this type would have been so willing to listen to and incorporate the feedback you guys have. Fair play to all.

CFlower

Congratulations on doing this big job patiently. I'll be taking a good look through over the next couple of days.

Thanks.

Orion

GGWP. I do like to be involved with a site that actually listens to it's users' concerns. Good work - particularly on the creative side of things.

ynotdu

Hey Darragh,
Sincere regards for listening and where it was possible amending the discussion document in response to feedback.
Nothing i have read seems in the least bit unfair come March 1st.
My gripe was not being able to 'leave' boards although i realised that a thread with key posts deleted would be like a jigsaw puzzle with pieces missing.

the solution seems fine with no whiff of 'Stalanism'!

BTW:.did i mention, two of my sisters who know i use boards thought You were "really hot" on the six one news!:D{unfortunatly they are the two UGLY ones:D}

Darragh

You'll find the details in the link above.

Why do you want to close your account?

Spiritoftheseventies

just curious. If someone is a paid subscriber to these boards and loses both their password and the email address for retrieving password, what is the procedure for retrieving it.

Darragh

They should email hello@boards.ie with their details, or post in the Helpdesk and we'll help you out.

Spiritoftheseventies

Darragh wrote: »

They should email hello@boards.ie with their details, or post in the Helpdesk and we'll help you out.

Apparently not Darragh. Lost my details and had to sign up again. Have been on to help desk three times now and had absolutely no joy.

gimme5minutes

God this place has become so bureaucratic. I can hardly stick it anymore. It feels like you are posting on some big business's website rather than the community feel it used to have. It is full to the brim of narky moderators who are non-stop putting out warnings/notes/infractions if a discussion even shows signs of getting heated. Do these people realise how off putting it makes a forum when they keep telling people what to do?

You should read these Terms of Use as they govern your use of Boards.ie.

Please note, Site Guidelines and Forum Charters should also be taken to govern your continued use of Boards.ie.

I would be surprised if even .5% of the site's user base bothered to read that stuff. It's a fecking online messageboard, not a mortage application. People have no interesting in reading 1) Terms of use, 2) Site Guidlines and 3) Forum Charters before they post. You have now have 3 separate lists of rules and regulations that people are supposed to read before posting, it's complete overkill. The site got by just fine years ago without any of that crap.

Xiney

Five years ago the site was a lot smaller.

Spiritoftheseventies

gimme5minutes wrote: »

God this place has become so bureaucratic. I can hardly stick it anymore. It feels like you are posting on some big business's website rather than the community feel it used to have. It is full to the brim of narky moderators who are non-stop putting out warnings/notes/infractions if a discussion even shows signs of getting heated. Do these people realise how off putting it makes a forum when they keep telling people what to do?



I would be surprised if even .5% of the site's user base bothered to read that stuff. It's a fecking online messageboard, not a mortage application. People have no interesting in reading 1) Terms of use, 2) Site Guidlines and 3) Forum Charters before they post. You have now have 3 separate lists of rules and regulations that people are supposed to read before posting, it's complete overkill. The site got by just fine years ago without any of that crap.

I agree. The emphasis is just all wrong here.

Steve

Hey Darragh, well done on all the work that went in to this.

One thing is niggling at me about how this is being implememted:

If I sign up for something (say a broadband agreement or a phone line etc..) then the terms of use of that service are what I signed up to in the beginning. If they subsequently change them then it has no effect on me as an individual unless I agree to sign a new contract.

How will (or how can) the changes in terms of use affect members who joined the site before the current version was conceived?

I'm not trying to be an ass here, just pre-empting the inevitable.:)

Wibbs

Fake Locke wrote: »

I agree. The emphasis is just all wrong here.

And I get that myself. I really do, but.... its a very different animal now. As Xiney said it was a lot smaller in the past. Being small means you're not noticed. Hell we're here only cos the dinosaurs missed the little furry things at their feet.

The more the community gets bigger, the more it gets noticed and the bigger it gets, the more vulnerable it is to attack. Being big means you have influence, but the other side of that is that you're a bigger target for those who dont want you to have that influence. Thats one side of things like this.

On the other side, it enshrines what users should expect. Lets say you didnt care and didnt read some other "contract" which stated "Boards owns your arse". Two years later you go "eh WTF?" and because it wasnt out there for the community to see, you would be high and dry.

I'll be honest I also dislike this kinda stuff. Why? Not because of what it says, but because of the reasons it needs to be said in the bloody first place. That's not Boards, sadly that's the world we live in.

When was the last time you read your car insurance small print? When was the last time you clicked "I accept" when you installed software? Ever read Facebook's terms of use?


At least in this world you do get quite abit of a heads up. Which says a lot.

AnonoBoy

gimme5minutes wrote: »

The site got by just fine years ago without any of that crap.

But yet you only signed up last year?

I agree with Wibbs, hey - it would be great if it was all community based with no rules and we all got along and had the craic. Unfortunately as the site grows in both size and popularity more rules are needed to cover the site's ass if you will.

Example - last Sunday I was apparently quoted in the Star on something I said in the Cool Pics and Vids forum.

5 years ago that casual quoting of something off boards.ie would have been unheard of, would it not?

The thing is, people read this site - people in power, people in the national broadcaster, people in the public eye. Things that get said here can have consequences, and while we might not think of that sitting in our offices or sitting-rooms or wherever, it is true. So Boards needs to protect itself so it can go on providing the great site that it has done for so long.

So, y'know, terms and conditions are necessary evils and I for one, am on Boards.ie side on this one.

Viva la Boards!

ynotdu

Darragh wrote: »

You'll find the details in the link above.

Why do you want to close your account?

I don't Darragh,although i am surprised that i have lasted nearly a year without a site ban,Quite a record for me on discussion/chat sites!:D

the draft said if a person wanted to leave they should simply stop posting,during the thread You also said that it was something You were uncomfortable with since you became an employee of boards and you's were looking at ways to change it.

I never looked for posts to be deleted along with a request to 'leave' boards.That has been sorted!:)

I really don't fully know why the inability to leave a site forever as opposed to just not posting anymore bugged me.but it did!{guess it's the principle of it!}

Cheers

ynotdu

gimme5minutes wrote: »

God this place has become so bureaucratic. I can hardly stick it anymore. It feels like you are posting on some big business's website rather than the community feel it used to have. It is full to the brim of narky moderators who are non-stop putting out warnings/notes/infractions if a discussion even shows signs of getting heated. Do these people realise how off putting it makes a forum when they keep telling people what to do?



I would be surprised if even .5% of the site's user base bothered to read that stuff. It's a fecking online messageboard, not a mortage application. People have no interesting in reading 1) Terms of use, 2) Site Guidlines and 3) Forum Charters before they post. You have now have 3 separate lists of rules and regulations that people are supposed to read before posting, it's complete overkill. The site got by just fine years ago without any of that crap.

Hi,ya giveme5minutes,normally i would be on the 'militant' side like You!
Boards from what i have read had a close shave with bankruptcy when the economic house of cards came crashing down:(

a post the other day dug up Boardsies posting 9/11 as it happened,reminded me that it is a fantastic online resource for how 'ordinary' people felt/reacted on that day in history.{and every days posts are a record of that days history.}

Journalists regularly quote from boardsies{if wikipedia does not make their job easy!:pac::pac::)}

cheers
One lawsuit could bring it down

Darragh

Fake Locke wrote: »

Apparently not Darragh. Lost my details and had to sign up again. Have been on to help desk three times now and had absolutely no joy.

Hey, I've just checked under your username, email address and name and can't find anything in there - can you reforward the email(s) to hello@boards.ie, with FAKE LOCKE in the subject line and as soon as I receive it I'll action it?

Thanks a million for the patience.

Darragh

Spiritoftheseventies

Wibbs wrote: »

And I get that myself. I really do, but.... its a very different animal now. As Xiney said it was a lot smaller in the past. Being small means you're not noticed. Hell we're here only cos the dinosaurs missed the little furry things at their feet.

The more the community gets bigger, the more it gets noticed and the bigger it gets, the more vulnerable it is to attack. Being big means you have influence, but the other side of that is that you're a bigger target for those who dont want you to have that influence. Thats one side of things like this.

On the other side, it enshrines what users should expect. Lets say you didnt care and didnt read some other "contract" which stated "Boards owns your arse". Two years later you go "eh WTF?" and because it wasnt out there for the community to see, you would be high and dry.

I'll be honest I also dislike this kinda stuff. Why? Not because of what it says, but because of the reasons it needs to be said in the bloody first place. That's not Boards, sadly that's the world we live in.

When was the last time you read your car insurance small print? When was the last time you clicked "I accept" when you installed software? Ever read Facebook's terms of use?


At least in this world you do get quite abit of a heads up. Which says a lot.

I agree with you in some regards but think we need to strike the right balance here.

Darragh

gimme5minutes wrote: »

God this place has become so bureaucratic. I can hardly stick it anymore. It feels like you are posting on some big business's website rather than the community feel it used to have. It is full to the brim of narky moderators who are non-stop putting out warnings/notes/infractions if a discussion even shows signs of getting heated. Do these people realise how off putting it makes a forum when they keep telling people what to do?

You should read these Terms of Use as they govern your use of Boards.ie.

Please note, Site Guidelines and Forum Charters should also be taken to govern your continued use of Boards.ie.

I would be surprised if even .5% of the site's user base bothered to read that stuff. It's a fecking online messageboard, not a mortage application. People have no interesting in reading 1) Terms of use, 2) Site Guidelines and 3) Forum Charters before they post. You have now have 3 separate lists of rules and regulations that people are supposed to read before posting, it's complete overkill. The site got by just fine years ago without any of that crap.

I agree. The emphasis is just all wrong here.

I'll be honest I also dislike this kinda stuff. Why? Not because of what it says, but because of the reasons it needs to be said in the bloody first place. That's not Boards, sadly that's the world we live in.

The thing is, people read this site - people in power, people in the national broadcaster, people in the public eye. Things that get said here can have consequences, and while we might not think of that sitting in our offices or sitting-rooms or wherever, it is true. So Boards needs to protect itself so it can go on providing the great site that it has done for so long.

So, y'know, terms and conditions are necessary evils and I for one, am on Boards.ie side on this one.

^^^^^

I'm in a unique postition on this one because I was so heavily involved with the formulation of the terms. For the most part, I agree with you. It's a pity that we have to do these. It makes the site more bureaucratic, it takes away from the community feel and you're right - many many people won't read them.

On the other hand, the people that said we need them are right too.

My challenge though - and one of the main reasons that I involved myself so much in this - is for you to show me how this has changed anything for the worse. What have we introduced into it to make Boards.ie a worse place to be? How has what the Terms of Use represent changed anything about Boards.ie the site or service, except to formalise the things we've always done and make them more professional?

At a very top level basis, despite all the legal speak and tone, here's what the Terms of Use are basically saying:

• Why the document is in place and what it means for you
• Section 1. We want your personal details to stay personal and are committed to making this happen
• Section 2. If we need to, we'll have to be able to add in Terms, especially if they help us make the site better
• Section 3. Make sure Boards.ie is right for you before joining
• Section 4. Don't make trouble on the site for other members or for yourself
• Section 5. Look after your account; don't create one to cause offence
• Section 6. You can close your account or we can do it for you
• Section 7. You are responsible for what you post on Boards.ie, so be careful what you post. Your creative work is your own. If you give us ideas for the site freely, we don't necessarily owe you anything money wise for them
• Section 8. We're not responsible for other websites that you or others link to
• Section 9. We own Boards.ie, so don't rob our stuff to try make money from it
• Section 10. We may show you ads. We don't want you on here to sell. If you want to work with us commercially, let us know
• Section 11. We can't be held responsible for advice or material posted by others on the site. We also can't guarantee availability of the site all the time and we don't owe you anything if we decide to remove your account
• Section 12. That's pretty much everything you agree to agree to as a member
• Section 13. The agreement doesn't mean that we're in business together
• Section 14. We operate in Ireland so are subject to Irish and EU law
• Section 15. Just in case there's a mistake in one of the terms, the rest still apply
• Section 16. These always apply, except if we authorise it in writing
• Section 17. Here's how you can get in touch with us.

All of that is in place for legal reasons (we are a business) and for protection. The law has changed, people's understandings of what their responsibilities are has to change and we have to change with it.

If you have any constructive feedback on what we could be doing better, we're always very open to hearing it. The site would be nothing without its members - we want to make sure it's the best place it can be for them. That's not just lip-service - that's what we try to do.

Darragh

Darragh

Fake Locke wrote: »

I agree with you in some regards but think we need to strike the right balance here.

What is the balance between - and how can we strike it?

Kinetic^

Protection is needed for both site and user. It's that simple.

Spiritoftheseventies

Darragh wrote: »

What is the balance between - and how can we strike it?

The balance should be on Poster enjoyment. If too many stipulations are laid down it can lead to a stressful situation. I think the day is long enough as it is. Appreciate the need to have rules here but like i said the balance has to be right.

Keano

I generally don’t get involved in many Feedback threads about how the site is run.

IMO the site is by far the best site on the Internet so much so I spend 90% of my internet time on it!

How many users can honestly say they read the T&C's when the signed up? Not a lot.

To 95% of users the new T&C’s will not affect them, some will always just want to give out.

Darragh

Fake Locke wrote: »

The balance should be on Poster enjoyment. If too many stipulations are laid down it can lead to a stressful situation. I think the day is long enough as it is. Appreciate the need to have rules here but like i said the balance has to be right.

Okay, accepted, but where are we diverting from poster enjoyment?

If poster enjoyment means the "freedom" to libel, defame, bitch, break copyright or otherwise cause trouble for other people, companies or the law, then no thanks. Because that's not what we're about.

If it's to share, discuss, comment, debate, contribute and otherwise make the best of what the site has to offer, then I'm very much struggling to see where we're not allowing people to do this.

As I said - we haven't changed anything abut Boards.ie here - we've just consolidated the rules and written them down.

I hope that helps

Darragh

Spiritoftheseventies

Yes took the trouble to examine rules. If i was to suggest one thing that would be to raise the age limit to eighteen. I think 13 years no matter what forum they are posting on is just too low.

Boston

How do you plan to ensure that existing users agree to these new terms of use.

Darragh

Boston wrote: »

How do you plan to ensure that existing users agree to these new terms of use.

Hi there Boston, welcome back to Feedback.

The Terms say

By registering with us or using or browsing Boards.ie, you acknowledge that you have read, understood, and agree to be bound by these Terms of Use. If you do not agree you may not use Boards.ie.

Therefore people who are on the site have agreed to them. As stated earlier, this won't affect the vast majority of existing users but if someone breaks our terms by doing something they shouldn't, we will point to them as an agreement between the user and us as justification for our response.

I hope that helps

Darragh

Keano

Boston wrote: »

How do you plan to ensure that existing users agree to these new terms of use.

Moderators will no doubt be ensuring that.

Ticktactoe

Fake Locke wrote: »

Yes took the trouble to examine rules. If i was to suggest one thing that would be to raise the age limit to eighteen. I think 13 years no matter what forum they are posting on is just too low.

I agree. I know there is no 'full-proof' way of making sure the age they enter is true. I think with some of the discussions that happen here, 13 is a big young.;)

Boston

Darragh wrote: »

Therefore people who are on the site have agreed to them. As stated earlier, this won't affect the vast majority of existing users but if someone breaks our terms by doing something they shouldn't, we will point to them as an agreement between the user and us as justification for our response.

I hope that helps

Darragh

Yea I read that. I'm no legal expert, but thats doesn't seem like the type of thing which has any legal standing. Implicit acceptance of terms and conditions when theres no way of ensuring you're aware that the terms even exist.

A quick count shows that only a couple thousand hits on the terms of use. Obviously the vast majority of users are unaware of them

Keano

Boston wrote: »

Yea I read that. I'm no legal expert, but thats doesn't seem like the type of thing which has any legal standing. Implicit acceptance of terms and conditions when theres no way of ensuring you're aware that the terms even exist.

A quick count shows that only a couple thousand hits on the terms of use. Obviously the vast majority of users are unaware of them

By registering with us or using or browsing Boards.ie, you acknowledge that you have read, understood, and agree to be bound by these Terms of Use. If you do not agree you may not use Boards.ie.

Seems straight forward to me?

Boston

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Seems straight forward to me?

I'd suggest you have a think about the implications so. Registration is fine, you have to agree to the terms before proceeding. However, suppose there is some issue in the future which requires the administration to fall back on the terms of use to defend their position (A likely scenario, otherwise why have them) whats to stop a user saying they were never made aware of the terms of use and thus never accepted them?

Keano

Boston wrote: »

I'd suggest you have a think about the implications so. Registration is fine, you have to agree to the terms before proceeding. However, suppose there is some issue in the future which requires the administration to fall back on the terms of use to defend their position (A likely scenario, otherwise why have them) whats to stop a user saying they were never made aware of the terms of use and thus never accepted them?

I take your point but like you I am no legal expert but when you register you agree to the terms of conditions and I have never read them so I could be wrong about this but there must be a clause that say the are subject to change. So you agreeing at registration that you agree to the terms and/or any changes.

As I say I could be wrong about the clause but that's my interpretation.

Boston

I recall a course coordinator getting a document drawn up which stated that neither he nor the university was liable for any accident which took place as part of the lab work. He then got the students to sign it. A very legal sounding and clever document. Also not legally binding in the least since you cannot sign away future liability.

I'd question what legal standing, if any, a clause like "while browsing the site, you agree to blah" has when you can't even demonstrate that the user had the oppertunity to read that clause.

Keano

Well they can. The first thread you see when you log on or even just visit the site is the revision to Boards.ie Terms of Use. Also, if you didn't see that and you clicked into a forum you will see the announcement as well. It's up to you to read it. Boards then are in a position to say, we put announcements on the main page and also at the top of every fora. If the user doesn't read it that's not Boards issue - they notified you of the changes and you didn't read them.

Boston

I've the main page set up not to see announcements and I haven't logged within the time frame that the announcement was at the top of the page. What now?

Steve

Boston, I agree with what you are asking and have sort-of asked the same thing above.

I guess the line will be that there is no (and never was any) "right" to use this site so it's up to the individual to keep themselves current on what is and isn't allowed.

The spirit of the TOU is a fair one which ultimately boils down to "don't be an ass".

Spiritoftheseventies

thats done Darragh. Appreciate that

__

Happy to go with the new T&C's but as far as I am concerned my old account didn't sign up to them. I may at some stage want all my old account posts deleted and you can do nothing about it as per your T&C's.

Spiritoftheseventies

__ wrote: »

Happy to go with the new T&C's but as far as I am concerned my old account didn't sign up to them. I may at some stage want all my old account posts deleted and you can do nothing about it as per your T&C's.

no name. what gives?

Esel

*dons poofreading (sick) hat

Noticed the following typos:

Materal

best display – for different browsers

The license you grant (noun, should be 'licence')

royalty free (s/b hyphenated?)

sub-licensable sub-licenseable (both appear, one must be wrong?)

Re: Official Representatives and "Talk to..." Forums:

You agree: maybe should read "By becoming an Official Representative, you agree:"


Just a swift read-over at this late hour; did not scan boilerplate.

Also, I wonder if Adverts.ie use is adequately covered by the various disclaimers etc.? Most of them mention Boards.ie only. (IANAL).