Reclaim forestry land

jocotty

Hi All,
I would be grateful for information that anyone might have on this topic.
I have a small farm in the west of ireland, and the lands bounding me (nearly 50 acres!) were planted with forestry a long long time ago!good land. The first crop of trees were harvested, and then the land was replanted in 2003 with corniferous trees. The thing is , the owner of the land passed away, and signed the land to his niece ,who is living in germany, and has never even set foot on the land. The second crop of trees is in very bad condition, many of them failed, and the remaining in very poor form. The land is now for sale for a very small cost, and it would completly change my life, if i was able to buy this land, and reclaim it, and use it for agriculture. Iv enquired into this, and have been told that , because a premium was given for the first crop, then the land MUST remain for forestry use only. There is no premium given for the second crop. Can anyone please tell me, is there ANY way at all around this claus, whereby i can buy the land and reclaim it and use it for something else.. The state it is at the moment is a discrace,50 acres, with only a few skeleton trees growin on it. Would be grateful for some advice, or ideas.

much appreciated.

F.D

I'm afraid i cant help you much but This is exactly the reason i am after taken land back that was planted with trees less than 5 years ago, once its forest it has to be replanted or the premium has to be repaid i was told this also and it is on of the things that finalised my decision to get out, also there is no premiums on the second crop like you say,
Maybe when the lands change hands you are not responsible for the premium paid to the owner at the time?
I remember when my father inherited the land he had to sign something to continue the contract, maybe this was only for the premiums, maybe it was to keep the land in forestry, if this was the case maybe on the sale of the land you could refuse to sign this and maybe get out of it that way.
Either way i'd say it will be hard to avoid paying it back, but good luck and let us know how you get on

djmc

I thought I heard about 2 years ago that they did away with that rule and you could reclaim land after trees were felled if you wanted
Best give some forestry planner a ring on it.

Johnnyr

The grant/premium aid that the owner received on the first rotation is irrelevant. If the crop has been clearfelled already, I presume it was 35-40 yrs of age. The level of grant aid would have been very low back then and it probably received no premiums.

What is relevant here are the conditions of the felling licence under which the 50 ac was felled. There is usually provision for the maintenance of the subsequent crop until it is established. You should get in touch with the Felling Section (Forest Service) in Johnstown Castle and ask for details. Or else ask the auctioneer who is handling the sale to find out what are the obligations in relation to the site.

jocotty

Johnnyr wrote: »

What is relevant here are the conditions of the felling licence under which the 50 ac was felled. There is usually provision for the maintenance of the subsequent crop until it is established. You should get in touch with the Felling Section (Forest Service) in Johnstown Castle and ask for details. Or else ask the auctioneer who is handling the sale to find out what are the obligations in relation to the site.

thanks for the reply's lads. That is a good point, surly the premiums would not be very much back in 1980. I will enquire , and let ye know how i get on.

Casinoking

Another thing you should keep in mind is the cost of reinstating thel land. I was involved in reclaiming 16 acres of a christmas tree plantation for a neighbour of ours last year. The digger work was done by someone else, but between the two of us I'd say the cost ran close to €2000/acre by the time it was back in grass.

jocotty

Casinoking wrote: »

Another thing you should keep in mind is the cost of reinstating thel land. I was involved in reclaiming 16 acres of a christmas tree plantation for a neighbour of ours last year. The digger work was done by someone else, but between the two of us I'd say the cost ran close to €2000/acre by the time it was back in grass.

Well, if i did manage to be allowed to remove the trees, i would be able to do most of the reclaiming myself, as i have a good knowledge of what has to be done, and my brother has a track machine. Do you have any idea how the christmas trees escaped the replanting law?
I have enquired further into this, and from the forestry act, 1946, although there might not have been a premium given to the origional plantation, which was harvested lately, the felling licence would probably have stated that you can not plant the trees without replanting, and looking after for 10 years, in which case ,after the 10 years, they will again fall into the forestry act, 1946. However, in this case , they have not been cared for after plantation, as the person who inherited the land has no interest and is not or never has been living in Ireland! Interesting to see what will happen to this land.

Johnnyr

jocotty wrote: »

Do you have any idea how the christmas trees escaped the replanting law?

Christmas trees are viewed more like an agri/hort crop, the rotation length is short compared to forest crops. Christmas tree plantations would not have received any grant or premia aid like the forest areas that Dept. of Ag. now fund.

tabby aspreme

have seen christmas tree land reinstated using a stump grinder/rotovator it needed about 300 hp fendt with a creeper box to drive it

dessiewisley

i just inherited 40 acres of oak forestry only 3 years planted ,it was good land whats the chances of reclaiming it ,i reckon the last land owner got bad advice

captainwang

jocotty wrote: »

Do you have any idea how the christmas trees escaped the replanting law?

Christmas trees are always harvested before they are 10 years old and therefore do not require a felling licence. Premiums cannot be claimed on Christmas trees. A felling licence is only required for trees over 10 years old which are uprooted or harvested. Im not sure how good your chances are of reclaiming the land.

ihatetractors

With conifers init for a good few year it's gona b very low in ph, trace elements are goin to be closed off also. Will take a huge amount of work to bring back to production

what happen

dessiewisley wrote: »

i just inherited 40 acres of oak forestry only 3 years planted ,it was good land whats the chances of reclaiming it ,i reckon the last land owner got bad advice

was a premium paid on it for the 3 years i dont know if you will be allowed to touch it because of wildlife it could be protected thats a lot of ground

F.D

"i just inherited 40 acres of oak forestry only 3 years planted ,it was good land whats the chances of reclaiming it ,i reckon the last land owner got bad advice"


It is easy to reclaim as long as you pay back the premium, which was probably a lump sum up front paid to someone like coillte and the 3 years payment recieved since, no need for felling licence or rubbish about wildlife, the exact words from the dept to me was, "its your land you can do what you like with it as long as you pay back the money in full" and thats what we did with 20 acres of conifers and possibly more to come
We got a hedgecutter and cut them down to the butt then a light rotavating then plough on its second crop now not even a twig showing, but i got about 3 acres of alder 10 ft tall the contractor just rotavated them without even cutting them down first, no problem best move we ever made you wont regret it, good luck !

dessiewisley

F.D wrote: »

"i just inherited 40 acres of oak forestry only 3 years planted ,it was good land whats the chances of reclaiming it ,i reckon the last land owner got bad advice"


It is easy to reclaim as long as you pay back the premium, which was probably a lump sum up front paid to someone like coillte and the 3 years payment recieved since, no need for felling licence or rubbish about wildlife, the exact words from the dept to me was, "its your land you can do what you like with it as long as you pay back the money in full" and thats what we did with 20 acres of conifers and possibly more to come
We got a hedgecutter and cut them down to the butt then a light rotavating then plough on its second crop now not even a twig showing, but i got about 3 acres of alder 10 ft tall the contractor just rotavated them without even cutting them down first, no problem best move we ever made you wont regret it, good luck !

thanks for the information f.d. it was really useful.at the moment i'm clearing all around the ditches as when they were planting they kept 30 foot around out from the ditch,so i'm creating grass pathways around the forest.i had a farmer up looking at it to day and he said it top quality land ,as all the land around it is class,.i have a flail mower my self to clean all the scrub that grew out from the ditch and it has no problem in mowing over the trees as i cut a few accidently.the farmer was telling me first i'd have to spray first to kill the root of the grass first the cut the trees and plough then reseed ,how much do ypu think it woule cost per acre.thank again

charliecon

I hope this isn't a stupid question but could you not get a garden centre or nursery to buy the trees of you rather than just munching them up? Its just that a farmer beside me had to plant broadleaf trees as part of his REPS plan and all he could get was ash as apparently alot of saplings were killed off in the hard frost we had.

I know you would have to wait till winter to lift them but it might get you a few euro to put towards the reseeding.

dessiewisley

no your right ,i'll get plenty of offers for those trees once i decide to reclaim it,i'll advertise it,cheers

what happen

dessiewisley wrote: »

no your right ,i'll get plenty of offers for those trees once i decide to reclaim it,i'll advertise it,cheers

thats a great idea it would be a sin to cut them. how tall are they.

F.D

depends on the root ball of the tree, i thought the same but some people said it was easier to plant saplings, also with reps i think you have to provide a reciept of batch number to prove you purchased them, so that could cause a problem, dont get me wrong its a sin to chop them up but remember how many there is planted its a lot to get rid of

F.D

dessiewisley wrote: »

thanks for the information f.d. it was really useful.at the moment i'm clearing all around the ditches as when they were planting they kept 30 foot around out from the ditch,so i'm creating grass pathways around the forest.i had a farmer up looking at it to day and he said it top quality land ,as all the land around it is class,.i have a flail mower my self to clean all the scrub that grew out from the ditch and it has no problem in mowing over the trees as i cut a few accidently.the farmer was telling me first i'd have to spray first to kill the root of the grass first the cut the trees and plough then reseed ,how much do ypu think it woule cost per acre.thank again

we didnt spray because the people that planted it made a mess of the field with ruts etc and you would have probably damaged the sprayer trying to travel across it, we have tilled it twice since and no sign of any tree or even root for that matter when the sod is turned
i think it came to about 170 an acre for the contractor including flailing sowing barley and harvesting, sowing a crop will get rid of all the weeds if you dont get to spray before hand, The biggest problem was the grass wrapping around the plough, hense why a rotavator had to be used to chop the surface before hand

moseythecat

I am a forester workin in south east. You will have to repay the GRANT & PREMIUM on the site in order to take it out of forestry. oak grants are about €4000 per hectare. premium are over €200 an acre.

so 40 acres would be €64000 in grants
€8000 in premium for each year it was paid

moseythecat

dessiewisley wrote: »

i just inherited 40 acres of oak forestry only 3 years planted ,it was good land whats the chances of reclaiming it ,i reckon the last land owner got bad advice

do you have a spare €88000 lying around. thats what you will probably have to repay in order to be allowed remove the forestry

F.D

hi mossy would appreciate your advice please could you tell me what people are supposed to do from yr 20 onwards after the yearly payment stops? i have asked this question numerous times and find no one can ever gives me an answer that i find inspires any confidence, especially for oaks that take longer to grow
and maybe also explain the same for confirs,
last question how much of the money aquired at clearfell is actually required to replant the land, seen as it is deemed as forestry and cannot be used for anything else,
i have 5 acres mixed with oak / japeneese larch
and 25- 30 acres of confiers douglas fir and norwiegan spruce i think
just over 4 years planted and considering turning back to agricultural land
already removed 20 acres last year

moseythecat

Well F.D,

What did you have to do with thw 20 acres you removed? how much did you repay that time? usually you are required to repay all money that the state has paid out on an area of forestry irrespective if it has gone beyond the 20 year stage.

forestry can be very valuable at clearfell with values of between €7000 to €10000 for the timber.

replanting costs would usually come to about €600 - €800 per acre. So in effect approx about 10% of the timber revenue.

It is worth noting that forests receive thinning from around year 15 - 20 onwards. thinnings are then carried out 3 - 5 years up until clearfell stage. so there is a well defined revenue stream to the grower.

I think the return from forestry is strong relative to farming. with premiums of 173/ acre for conifers (for 20 years) up until thinning stage. good thinnings can yield apprx 200 per acre.

99nsr125

moseythecat wrote: »

I am a forester workin in south east. You will have to repay the GRANT & PREMIUM on the site in order to take it out of forestry. oak grants are about €4000 per hectare. premium are over €200 an acre.

so 40 acres would be €64000 in grants
€8000 in premium for each year it was paid

I was speaking to my Teagasc Forestry rep today about afforestation
and he confirmed (under current laws and acts)

Once afforested, land use is permanently changed to forest land,
so replant at every clearfell is obligatory.

Refund of all premia etc allows change of use back to agriculture at anytime,
but may be adjusted for inflation with added interest in the future.

The most interesting point he told me was that you could reclaim
at clearfell without penalty once an equivalent area was planted.

The last point he explained along with why and the legislation related,
at the foundation of the State there was only 1% forest cover,
we're now at 10% with a target of 17% by 2035.

So from the legislation the obligatory replanting is to mantain our current
low level of forest cover.

I didn't get it in writing but I'll be chasing it up.

I asked about reclaimation in the context of something fast like Sitka
being clearfelled after 35 years in comparison to something slow like Oak
being clearfelled at 120 years.

I was also asking in relation to climate change affecting viability and that over time
say 40 -50 years previously good but exhausted ground might improve enough with
an Alder/Beech/Birch mix undersown with lupins/legumes etc to be
very productive once again.



EDIT
From forestry Act 1946

in reference to replanting

"or of other land owned by the licensee at the date of the grant of the licence"

Licensee being you/contracter/person applying for a
felling licence

It's an option "The Minister" has to grant you not an option you can envoke
it seems

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1946/en/act/pub/0013/sec0041.html#sec41

F.D

99nsr125 wrote: »

I was speaking to my Teagasc Forestry rep today about afforestation
and he confirmed (under current laws and acts)

Once afforested, land use is permanently changed to forest land,
so replant at every clearfell is obligatory.

Refund of all premia etc allows change of use back to agriculture at anytime,
but may be adjusted for inflation with added interest in the future.

The most interesting point he told me was that you could reclaim
at clearfell without penalty once an equivalent area was planted.

The last point he explained along with why and the legislation related,
at the foundation of the State there was only 1% forest cover,
we're now at 10% with a target of 17% by 2035.

So from the legislation the obligatory replanting is to mantain our current
low level of forest cover.

I didn't get it in writing but I'll be chasing it up.

I asked about reclaimation in the context of something fast like Sitka
being clearfelled after 35 years in comparison to something slow like Oak
being clearfelled at 120 years.

I was also asking in relation to climate change affecting viability and that over time
say 40 -50 years previously good but exhausted ground might improve enough with
an Alder/Beech/Birch mix undersown with lupins/legumes etc to be
very productive once again.



EDIT
From forestry Act 1946

in reference to replanting

"or of other land owned by the licensee at the date of the grant of the licence"

Licensee being you/contracter/person applying for a
felling licence

It's an option "The Minister" has to grant you not an option you can envoke
it seems

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1946/en/act/pub/0013/sec0041.html#sec41

Oak Clear felling in 120 years
So what do people do from yr 20 when the payments stop and you are relying on thinnings? i presume with Oak that wont be too frequent either,
Surly if you land is good enough for oak theres more scope to earn money every year out of some other crop

99nsr125

F.D wrote: »

Oak Clear felling in 120 years
So what do people do from yr 20 when the payments stop and you are relying on thinnings? i presume with Oak that wont be too frequent either,
Surly if you land is good enough for oak theres more scope to earn money every year out of some other crop

It's a good and valid point, personally I asume Oak would be
part of a mixed plantation that'd harvest at 40, 60, 80
and a 100 years.

Averaged out net margin would be close on 500 Euro a Hectare
which is comparable to some of the better farm returns (bar potatoes)

newmug

Hi Mossey. I just bought 5 acres, 1 of which is pure swamp. I was thinking of planting it. Would Coillte entertain such a small area, and how much per acre do they pay? Aswell, is the grant a seperate thing?

tomo75

^^^ Bump

greenfingers89

newmug wrote: »

Hi Mossey. I just bought 5 acres, 1 of which is pure swamp. I was thinking of planting it. Would Coillte entertain such a small area, and how much per acre do they pay? Aswell, is the grant a seperate thing?

sound like ground suitable for conifers only, minimum area for grant aid is 1 hectare (slightly under 2.5 acres) or 0.25 hectare will be considered if its ajoining an existing forest

newmug

greenfingers89 wrote: »

sound like ground suitable for conifers only, minimum area for grant aid is 1 hectare (slightly under 2.5 acres) or 0.25 hectare will be considered if its ajoining an existing forest

Thanks Greenfingers. How much would 1 hectare of conifers earn for you?

greenfingers89

newmug wrote: »

Thanks Greenfingers. How much would 1 hectare of conifers earn for you?

€427/hectare/year for 20 years if you have a herd number.....what part of the country (roughly) are you in? the forest service inspector in your area may not let a small area go ahead without a lot of hassle

tommylimerick

i planted 1.2 ha last year all hardwoods ,had no hassle being accepted
when they say you have to be a farmer in order to qualify for the higher grant what does that mean ?
is it just a active herd number ?
do you have to have a active herd number for the duration of the 20 year grant ?

greenfingers89

tommylimerick wrote: »

i planted 1.2 ha last year all hardwoods ,had no hassle being accepted
when they say you have to be a farmer in order to qualify for the higher grant what does that mean ?
is it just a active herd number ?
do you have to have a active herd number for the duration of the 20 year grant ?

farmer grant is higher, for example spruce pays farmer 173/acre but pays non farmer 73....ash pays 195 v 79.....oak pays 208 v 79.
and non farmer payments are for 15 years instead of 20.
yes an active herd no qualifies a farmer.
no just has to be active for first payment

robp

dessiewisley wrote: »

i just inherited 40 acres of oak forestry only 3 years planted ,it was good land whats the chances of reclaiming it ,i reckon the last land owner got bad advice

I know this a late reply but I feel its worth stating all the same. The 120 year rotations for oak is probably only an estimate on poor soils or when there is poor thinning. In the States when oaks are properly managed on good soils they can be harvested in 60-70 years. Ireland has far higher productivity rates then North America, and even 36% higher than the UK in specifically broad-leaf forestry. Oak is a ring porous timber so the faster it grows the denser it is, so it’s win win. Oak is undervalued as a crop IMO. If anyone has any corrections on this I would be interested to hear them.

greenfingers89

robp wrote: »

The 120 year rotations for oak is probably only an estimate on poor soils or when there is poor thinning.

the whole point being that the soils offered up for oak more often than not are poorer than what is considered to be decent agricultual land. no doubt the rotations would be shorter if oak was put on far better soil but it isnt the case

razor8

anyone know of a way to avoid paying back the premiums or if any exemptions apart from planting other land?

Massey10

razor8 wrote: »

anyone know of a way to avoid paying back the premiums or if any exemptions apart from planting other land?

If you find a way let me know

razor8

dessiewisley wrote: »

i just inherited 40 acres of oak forestry only 3 years planted ,it was good land whats the chances of reclaiming it ,i reckon the last land owner got bad advice

Did you ever go ahead with the reclaiming?