Amateur fights on pro cards

Jason McCabe

This makes a lot of sense. For your own sanity and quality of show.

I counted that there could be 27 or so shows in the north alone a year now

EFR - 3 or 4
Cage Wars - 1 or 2
Strabane - 3
Warrenpoint - 3
Ultimate Conflict 3
Chaos 2 or 3
Cage Contender - 4
Clan Wars 3 or 4
Spartan 2 or 3 (not sure what their schedule is now)


trying to pack too many in is seriously going to give promoters a very sore head. Especially when pull outs happen at last minute and everyone is already promised out to another show.

It's ok if it happens with the amateurs but a headache when Pro's pull

cowzerp

Jason McCabe wrote: »

This makes a lot of sense. For your own sanity and quality of show.

I counted that there could be 27 or so shows in the north alone a year now

EFR - 3 or 4
Cage Wars - 1 or 2
Strabane - 3
Warrenpoint - 3
Ultimate Conflict 3
Chaos 2 or 3
Cage Contender - 4
Clan Wars 3 or 4
Spartan 2 or 3 (not sure what their schedule is now)

There is too mant shows up north tbh, i dont know how we can continue to provide fighters at that rate and maintain any sort of standards, matches will be just thrown together to fill cards if it keeps up.

John Ferguson

cowzerp wrote: »

There is too mant shows up north tbh, i dont know how we can continue to provide fighters at that rate and maintain any sort of standards, matches will be just thrown together to fill cards if it keeps up.

Quick point: Cage Contender V ... will be on July 24th in Dublin!!!


John
www.cagecontender.net

Martin Walker

cowzerp wrote: »

There is too mant shows up north tbh, i dont know how we can continue to provide fighters at that rate and maintain any sort of standards, matches will be just thrown together to fill cards if it keeps up.

This has already been happening Paul. I know exactly where you are coming from. The pool of fighters is being watered down. This problem combined with the emergence of lots of new clubs pushing fighters when they are not ready does not bode well. I see tough times ahead.:(

pablohoney87

Martin Walker wrote: »

This has already been happening Paul. I know exactly where you are coming from. The pool of fighters is being watered down. This problem combined with the emergence of lots of new clubs pushing fighters when they are not ready does not bode well. I see tough times ahead.:(

Why dont clubs put on shows together? Should up the quality of shows and reduce the number. Just my thoughts on it.

mmmm...not sure

I am not claiming to know anything about putting on shows but I know as a spectator that I love going to shows and the more on the better, I know people are complaining about amateur on bigger shows but with the number of local shows having local amateurs on then they can get experince and in the future they may become pros so this can only be good for the sport if we have high levels of pros in the next few years. I know it seems alot but if local amateur are only getting the chance to fight at their shows 2 or 3 shows a year is not alot and people may disagree but these boys need their chance aswel.

Barry.Oglesby

That would be fine if that was what's happening- amateurs getting experience and then kicking on. But what's actually happening is that guys with very little training are getting their first tastes in high pressure environments and have neither the tools nor maturity to deal with it. Some guys who might make good fighters in a few years are being pushed too hard, too soon, getting beaten in front of their mates and never returning to the ring/cage again.

Add to that the fact that the spectacle is less for the crowd, guys swinging and squeezing each other's heads for 10 minutes and gassing after 2 and it doesn't exactly enhance the reputation of MMA.

mmmm...not sure

I do agree with you mate that some are being pushed in to early and I have seen terrible fights with two amateur fighters not really knowing what to do but I don't see this as the fighters fault like a good coach should know when someone is ready to fight, however you can't stop clubs having 2 or 3 events a year as local fighters and local fans that can't make it to see or fight at other/bigger shows need these local shows and if the overall show is good that's what's important.

I know this is off topic and I apologise but I would like to know how long a coach would make a fighter train before allowing them to step into the cage/ring for the first time?

mark.leonard

mmmm...not sure wrote: »

I do agree with you mate that some are being pushed in to early and I have seen terrible fights with two amateur fighters not really knowing what to do but I don't see this as the fighters fault like a good coach should know when someone is ready to fight, however you can't stop clubs having 2 or 3 events a year as local fighters and local fans that can't make it to see or fight at other/bigger shows need these local shows and if the overall show is good that's what's important.

I know this is off topic and I apologise but I would like to know how long a coach would make a fighter train before allowing them to step into the cage/ring for the first time?

It varies wildly club to club, at Point Blank I insist on fighters being competent in all ranges before they try, I encourage League participation, though its not essential.
If Tim and I are confident that a fighter can handle himself in any range against above average opponents then he can fight as much (or as little) as he wants.

Tim_Murphy

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

That would be fine if that was what's happening- amateurs getting experience and then kicking on. But what's actually happening is that guys with very little training are getting their first tastes in high pressure environments and have neither the tools nor maturity to deal with it. Some guys who might make good fighters in a few years are being pushed too hard, too soon, getting beaten in front of their mates and never returning to the ring/cage again.

Add to that the fact that the spectacle is less for the crowd, guys swinging and squeezing each other's heads for 10 minutes and gassing after 2 and it doesn't exactly enhance the reputation of MMA.

+1 to that.

IFS.NI

mmmm...not sure wrote: »

I know this is off topic and I apologise but I would like to know how long a coach would make a fighter train before allowing them to step into the cage/ring for the first time?

Although this thread has went slightly off topic LOL

Regarding amateur fighters in my opinion as long as the fighters have at least 8mths to a years experience (of course people could progress faster or slower, this is just a rough quide),good base and are matched evenly this will give them good experience to progress.
We have around 40 members and only a few of them will we allow to compete who train hard, are physically and mentally ready plus have a good base. No one is putting them forward until they are ready - the fighters we put forward have travelled to England and beat some solid opposition. Without mentioning names their records are 3-0, 2-1, 1-0-1 and 1-0 - they have proved they can hold their own against many good clubs.

These are the only guys from our club who are at a level to compete in amateur MMA at present, there are alot coming up through but they are not ready and will not be put forward until they are.

Our show personally started for amateurs and we only brought in Pro's for the first time on Friday to test the water to see how it went. The show went very well and we learnt alot from it - we like the idea of bigger shows for mainly C-class and Pro fighters and maybe smaller amateur events or interclubs like we did before with Clan Wars 1 and 2 for amateurs as the interest for amateurs from clubs has been high.

Martin Walker

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

That would be fine if that was what's happening- amateurs getting experience and then kicking on. But what's actually happening is that guys with very little training are getting their first tastes in high pressure environments and have neither the tools nor maturity to deal with it. Some guys who might make good fighters in a few years are being pushed too hard, too soon, getting beaten in front of their mates and never returning to the ring/cage again.

Add to that the fact that the spectacle is less for the crowd, guys swinging and squeezing each other's heads for 10 minutes and gassing after 2 and it doesn't exactly enhance the reputation of MMA.

Im really glad im not the only person that thinks this.

mmmm...not sure

I agree with your policy on fighters mate and them records show it works, I think any club that put an event together with amateurs only deserve support and as long as it's not billed as something it's not and ticket prices are reasonable then I would definetely give I all my support.

I was in strabane at the weekend and took the opportunity to get a look at a fighter I have heard alot about he hasn't had a fight yet or I don't think has any fights confirmed yet but trains twice a day at the gym runs the roads and trains with his club in my eyes this is the dedication we need in the sport and if he doesn't get to fight at events because he is an amateur then it's a shame and as he is also a heavyweight (one of the biggest and tightest fellas I have seen) i would pay good money to see him.

IFS.NI

mmmm...not sure wrote: »

I agree with your policy on fighters mate and them records show it works, I think any club that put an event together with amateurs only deserve support and as long as it's not billed as something it's not and ticket prices are reasonable then I would definetely give I all my support.

I was in strabane at the weekend and took the opportunity to get a look at a fighter I have heard alot about he hasn't had a fight yet or I don't think has any fights confirmed yet but trains twice a day at the gym runs the roads and trains with his club in my eyes this is the dedication we need in the sport and if he doesn't get to fight at events because he is an amateur then it's a shame and as he is also a heavyweight (one of the biggest and tightest fellas I have seen) i would pay good money to see him.

Yes I agree, one of our lads runs cross country over cavehill every morning and twice coming up to fights plus his gym training. He eats clean,and only has the odd drink if hes not preparing for a fight.....and hes a student to boot!lol
Only dedicated members who are serious about training and the sport get to fight. I posted the records to show that they are doing ok in their peer group matched equally against there opponents.They are in no hurry to step up until the club decides they are ready and they are happy to get the experience win or lose. Alot of people seem to shun clubs with different backgrounds but in reality they are doing well, for example Merv Muholland 4-1, Andy Bell 2-0 and Paul Moore 2-0 from Juku Ryu Ju Jitsu, Andy Young and the lads from frames Tai Jutsu, rowan penderville for example out of Karate Jutsu, the lads from karate jutsu are in the gym at 6am either running or training preparing for fights ......these are all tough guys who also work on a syllabus outside of MMA.

The standard of amateurs in the UK is just the same as amateurs here, we all have to remember they are beginners just like the beginners in boxing, kick boxing or Judo for example and can not be compared to the fighters at the top of there game, they do however deserve the chance to compete against guys of similar experience just like any other sport and we want to continue the support of this from a grass roots level.

Barry.Oglesby

Look lads everyone starts somewhere and I'm not trying to say amateurs are rubbish. Just that they're being asked to run before they can walk.

I had an idea for an amateur show similar to the semi-pro series run by EFR and was planning to run it this month. The whole idea was that so called D class fights would be run on a Sunday afternoon, sort of a step up from the MMA League and in a low pressure environment, my gym or someone elses with a boxing ring or cage. When I sat down to organise it I realised that any fighter either at or slightly above MMA League standard is fighting on shows with hundreds of people paying "high street" prices to view them.
Look at Muay Thai for example, I'm sure all the Thai guys will say it's not perfect, but this year is our first year with the IMC and we already have a list of pro and amateur shows for 2010, and we got it on January 5th. The amateur shows are amateur only and exactly on the format I was talking about, all about getting guys experience and getting them involved in the sport.

Now people talk about "growing the sport" and such, let me tell you how sport, especially combat sport, grows. It doesn't grow through TV deals or sponsorships, it grows through retention of competitors and practitioners. Right now what's happening is guys at the bottom of the pyramid are being pressed into service too quick for their own good, and the result of that will be a high drop out rate among those newer guys. Look at the amount of shows in just 6 counties of this island of ours. Insane. I run a show in Dublin, one of just 2 running in the most populous county and one of just 4 in The Republic of Ireland and I struggled to fill a card two months ago.

I just don't know what comes next, but I do know that my phone never stops ringing from guys looking for fighters.

Sid_Justice

IFS.NI wrote: »

Alot of people seem to shun clubs with different backgrounds but in reality they are doing well, for example Merv Muholland 4-1, Andy Bell 2-0 and Paul Moore 2-0 from Juku Ryu Ju Jitsu, Andy Young and the lads from frames Tai Jutsu, rowan penderville for example out of Karate Jutsu, the lads from karate jutsu are in the gym at 6am either running or training preparing for fights ......these are all tough guys who also work on a syllabus outside of MMA.

Alright mate just wondering what exactly you mean by this, especially the bit in bold.

another question

Are the guys you mention all examples of guys who are doing well in MMA who -
train extensively in traditional martial arts?
train extensively in MMA with traditional martial arts backgrounds?
train extensively in MMA and traditional martial arts?
something else?

Just wonderin'

cowzerp

Just removing the debate from pauls thread as its littering his announcement, if you have an opinion voice it here, thanks..

IFS.NI

Cheers Paul, the last topic was going miles away from the original post which was just basically a heads up for people.


Hi Sid - I just meant that guys from traditional backgrounds are doing ok who maybe 2-3 years ago wouldnt have normally been on the MMA scene.They continue to train in both their jiu jitsu syllabus and MMA.

Just to draw a line under my views, I am all on for amateurs progressing and have learnt that yes on bigger pro shows there should be less with the majority fighting on smaller amateur shows for progression at a reduced ticket price. I think this is a fair statement.

Barry.Oglesby

Good move on splitting it it's better to have this debate without it reflecting on Clan Wars.

mmmm...not sure

Who has the final say on what class fighters will fight at? Some people that have made the step up to pro haven't been able to handle it just want to know are the coaches to blame?

cowzerp

mmmm...not sure wrote: »

Who has the final say on what class fighters will fight at? Some people that have made the step up to pro haven't been able to handle it just want to know are the coaches to blame?

Coaches decide what level there fighters are at, and promoters decide if they want that level on there show, coaches are to blame if a pro fighter is not up to the level..and promoters may be guilty of mismatches in that case too.

mmmm...not sure

cowzerp wrote: »

Coaches decide what level there fighters are at, and promoters decide if they want that level on there show, coaches are to blame if a pro fighter is not up to the level..and promoters may be guilty of mismatches in that case too.

Thanks for clearing that up for me mate

Jason McCabe

A coach has the final say on who his guys fight and I think it is their job to make sure they get evenly matched.

Of course this isn't always easy and a guy with a low record can be a top quality fighter with years of experience in a traditional art

I for one don't shun any traditional art. All the coaches around here came from traditional backgrounds.

mikey1

Jason McCabe wrote: »

This makes a lot of sense. For your own sanity and quality of show.

I counted that there could be 27 or so shows in the north alone a year now

EFR - 3 or 4
Cage Wars - 1 or 2
Strabane - 3
Warrenpoint - 3
Ultimate Conflict 3
Chaos 2 or 3
Cage Contender - 4
Clan Wars 3 or 4
Spartan 2 or 3 (not sure what their schedule is now)


trying to pack too many in is seriously going to give promoters a very sore head. Especially when pull outs happen at last minute and everyone is already promised out to another show.

It's ok if it happens with the amateurs but a headache when Pro's pull

I could see this happening a mile off as competition heats up to lets say get a piece of the pie, the simple trick here is for clubs to provide to those events promotors who are willing to pay a certain price for fighters, or promoters will offer to pay more for fighters over there competition, one or the other same kinda thing! A rise in the purse for fighters is on its way id say! Its going to be a competitive MMA event market me thinks if it isnt already! Just my two cents:)

wingnut4

I agree with some comments there, I dont think you should be charged say £20 for an amateur card unless theres good reason to charge it. Most amateur boxing matches are a tenner at most? Is that right? I think its great to have amateur cards but with having it in club where different clubs are invited. Something smaller with a smaller fee