How exactly are points and places decided?

**Timbuk2**

Sorry, but I'm a little confused about this.

If there was a course with 40 applicants, and the 40th got 520, then the points for that course would be 520, right?

But say the computer was assigning places in the course, starting at 600 and working downwards - what if the 39th place was filled by a person who got 525, but then there were multiple applicants who got 520, but only one space to fill. How is it decided who gets the 40th place, if there are multiple applicants who achieved the same points?

Also, if a course isn't full, does it have any points? My friend said that UCD Arts (which has 1200 places) isn't full this year. But this can't be true, as if it were, it would imply that the course wouldn't have any points (or All Qualified Applicants, as I think they call it) because then anyone could get it, even with low points. What exactly happens, in terms of points, if the places available for a course exceed the demand?

Sorry for the silly question - it probably wouldn't be necessary if I had a competent career guidance teacher. I tried asking him this same question but he told me that "a smart person like yourself shouldn't be worrying about not getting into a course" :rolleyes:

dambarude

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

But say the computer was assigning places in the course, starting at 600 and working downwards - what if the 39th place was filled by a person who got 525, but then there were multiple applicants who got 520, but only one space to fill. How is it decided who gets the 40th place, if there are multiple applicants who achieved the same points?

This is where random selection comes into play, where everyone on 520 is assigned a number, and one of those numbers is picked by the computer. It is usually denoted in points by saying 520*, where the * means that not everyone on those points got a place.

Re UCD arts it might not be full due to drop outs or transfers. Either that or your friend is wrong, I'm not sure.
EDIT: What challengemaster says makes sense.

challengemaster

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm a little confused about this.

If there was a course with 40 applicants, and the 40th got 520, then the points for that course would be 520, right?

eh, not too sure, the CAO is quite complex in how it works. For example, General science in NUIG could be 300 points last year, with average intake of 300. If it gets 400 applicants this year, and every one of them get over 500 (very unlikely) the points for the course couldn't rise by over 200, it would be insane.

But say the computer was assigning places in the course, starting at 600 and working downwards - what if the 39th place was filled by a person who got 525, but then there were multiple applicants who got 520, but only one space to fill. How is it decided who gets the 40th place, if there are multiple applicants who achieved the same points?

Yup, as said above, it goes to random selection. Better hope you're the lucky guy!

Also, if a course isn't full, does it have any points? My friend said that UCD Arts (which has 1200 places) isn't full this year. But this can't be true, as if it were, it would imply that the course wouldn't have any points (or All Qualified Applicants, as I think they call it) because then anyone could get it, even with low points. What exactly happens, in terms of points, if the places available for a course exceed the demand?

Sorry for the silly question - it probably wouldn't be necessary if I had a competent career guidance teacher. I tried asking him this same question but he told me that "a smart person like yourself shouldn't be worrying about not getting into a course" :rolleyes:

Yup, it does. What happens is if a course isn't filled in first round offers, then the points are adjusted, second round offers, if its still not filled, then third round offers. After that, if the course still isnt filled then there should be places available listed on the CAO website. I'm not 100% on how that works, but I assume if you've got adequate points and wanted to transfer early on in the year then it may be accomodated by that.

alexlyons

challengemaster wrote: »

eh, not too sure, the CAO is quite complex in how it works. For example, General science in NUIG could be 300 points last year, with average intake of 300. If it gets 400 applicants this year, and every one of them get over 500 (very unlikely) the points for the course couldn't rise by over 200, it would be insane.

Firstly the CAO isn't that complex, and its also one of the fairest, if not the fairest systems in the world for third level entry. Not my words, its been said many times.

Your example about GS in NUIG is completely possible, call it what you will (insane, ridiculous, unfair etc) but it is perfectly possible. It may be unlikely do to the extremity of the example, but that is how the system works. You say the points "couldn't" rise by 200 points. They can, and they will if that happens, but again, its very unlikely.

dambarude

alexlyons wrote: »

Firstly the CAO isn't that complex, and its also one of the fairest, if not the fairest systems in the world for third level entry. Not my words, its been said many times.

Your example about GS in NUIG is completely possible, call it what you will (insane, ridiculous, unfair etc) but it is perfectly possible. It may be unlikely do to the extremity of the example, but that is how the system works. You say the points "couldn't" rise by 200 points. They can, and they will if that happens, but again, its very unlikely.

Yep.

Technically, if a certain course with small numbers became very popular with 600 pointers all of a sudden, it's cut off could be that. If at least 30 people with 600 points apply to a course with 30 places, the cut off will be 600. If more than 30 people with 600 points apply, it will be 600*. It doesn't matter if the points cut off the previous year was 550 or 250, that's the way it would work. It seems fair to me, I don't know how else they could do it without interviews, aptitude test etc. And looking at the hullabaloo over the HPAT, I don't know if they'll become widespread anytime soon.

Victor

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Also, if a course isn't full, does it have any points? My friend said that UCD Arts (which has 1200 places) isn't full this year. But this can't be true, as if it were, it would imply that the course wouldn't have any points (or All Qualified Applicants, as I think they call it) because then anyone could get it, even with low points. What exactly happens, in terms of points, if the places available for a course exceed the demand?

There will of course be the minimum requirements, e.g. to have honours maths for some courses, which will dictate a certain baseline. I suspect the number of points listed after offers are completed would be the number of points the last applicant had.

challengemaster wrote: »

eh, not too sure, the CAO is quite complex in how it works. For example, General science in NUIG could be 300 points last year, with average intake of 300. If it gets 400 applicants this year, and every one of them get over 500 (very unlikely) the points for the course couldn't rise by over 200, it would be insane.

Unlikely, but perfectly possible. However, I imagine what you would see is that the college might consider adjusting the number of places if demand from good students changes that much. However, its much easier to make the adjustment with popular courses like arts and science (where the main requirements of the college are lecture and practical space) and more difficult for niche courses where there is, say, a lack of qualified teaching staff or specialist equipment, e.g. dentistry or radiology.

alexlyons wrote: »

You say the points "couldn't" rise by 200 points. They can, and they will if that happens, but again, its very unlikely.

Such jumps tend to only happen to less than a handful of courses each year.

Of course, certain courses weight subjects, so while someone I know only got something like 415 points, because she did 3 science subjects, she got more than 600 points for the purpose of that course.

Lawliet

dambarude wrote: »

Re UCD arts it might not be full due to drop outs or transfers. Either that or your friend is wrong, I'm not sure.

As far as I remember it wasn't on the vacant places list on the CAO last August, so it's most likely not full from drop outs.

The two 'Na Dana' courses at NUI Galway were on vacant places for the duration that the list was up on the CAO website, so I presume neither of them were filled. They both have points (425 for one and 340 for the other). I guess the points are from the last applicant to get on the course.

randylonghorn

dambarude wrote: »

Re UCD arts it might not be full due to drop outs or transfers. Either that or your friend is wrong, I'm not sure.

Given the number of places in UCD First Arts (I think the average intake is about 1,300) it is almost impossible to adjust so as to take in exactly that number.

The CAO and the University Admissions Officer will estimate how many First Round offers to make to get roughly 1,300 acceptances ... so they might, for instance, make 1,600 offers.

But it's impossible to predict exactly ... out of that 1,600 they might get 1,320 acceptances, in which case no offers will be made in the Second Round. On the other hand they might get 1,150 acceptances, in which case additional offers will be made in the Second Round, probably around 170-180.

If they only get 100 acceptances, they may make a number of additional offers on an individual basis, but after a certain point they will simply stop making offers, as they will be into the beginning of the academic year.

So they might, in one scenario, start the year with 1,320 students; in the other case, they might start with 1,250.

Additionally, people who were offered and accepted places in First Arts may get a higher offer in the Second Round for another course, and move on. Or as mentioned, some people will drop out.

So they may not be "full", but in courses this large, it's more a technical thing than anything the college would be concerned about (though in general Admissions Officers will aim to be slightly over rather than slightly under in these large intake courses ... which can often ricochet and put a lot of pressure on teaching departments).

It's much easier to get the numbers pretty spot on in the courses with smaller intakes like medicine or law, even science.

DGRulz

The CAO is basically supply and demand. Think of your points as money, if theres a large demand for a coarse the guy w/ the most gets it. This contines until all the places are filled.