Can the ESB do this

knx

Alright folks,

I did a job a few years back for a cranky hoor who thinks everyone is tryin it on and starts an argument whenever possible. Maybe you know the type.
Anyway at the time there was an existing 3 phase supply in this building which for some reason ran from the pole into the roofspace and then to the meters at the back of the building and it was feeding about 4 flats and his workshop. So he replaced the workshop with what was supposed to be six one room office units and two small shop units. However by the time he was finished what we ended up with were six one room flats with electric cookers and electric showers so now I'm tellin him he needs a 3 phase 16 kva connection all to himself at the very minimum. Many arguments between me, him and the ESB later and he has to dig the street to get a line in from across the road. All cool, job done, power turned on.

Two days ago he calls me up to go and look at something. What I discovered was that the ESB had been in and disconnected the old cable, drilled a hole into our meter box and connected the old meters into our new connection. Now these old meters are nothing to do with us and are metering someone elses property and I do think that the old supply should have been done away with anyway cause it was a live esb mains running through a building with no isolator or fuse protection. But can they just do this. There was no way in hell they were goin to let us connect up to the old connection at the time but now it's cool to connect the old meters to the new connection. Both supplies are the same size.

This may be all a little long winded and if you need me to clarify no problem but I just need to know if this is legal or not. Cause I think not..

M cebee

the ESB can prob loop the service onto another installation if they want

if voltage drop becomes an issue you can prob contact them then

whatever MIC(capacity) you applied for is what you're entitled to

davelerave

Davy

A sketch might help explain it better


They have just transferred the old meter tails onto the new cable, rather then pull new tails up the meters from the new cable?

RoundyMooney

I'm not quite sure what happened here, but the meter point is and remains the property of ESBN. Unless they caused damage in diverting the neighbours supply into your Lucy box or whatever I don't see an issue.

When you say both supplies are the same size, what do you mean? Can you post a pic of the multiboard?

knx

Alright lads,

Ok I'll try and explain a bit better. Haven't any photos unfortunately. At the time there was one three phase meter for my clients building and it was on a wall along with maybe 5 or 6 other meters feeding flats in another guys building. Sounds funny I know but I've done a few jobs for this guy and nothin has been straight forward. Bit of a have a go builder. Anyway we were lookin for a new single phase connection and an uprated 3 phase connection. Esb came in and said there was no hope of any extra import capacity with the cable feeding the building as it was. So we agreed that we would put in the ducts to get a new supply from across the road. I put in two new meter cabinets on a separate wall with the the intention of completely separating the two buildings if you know what I mean. So that was all cool cable was pulled in and we were up and running. Now the cable they pulled in was the exact same size as the one wich already fed the building. The other day then I discovered that they had drilled a hole into the side of one of our new meter cabinets, connected up the old meters to our supply and done away with the old cable. Now I'm a bit peeved at this because first of all they said the cable was not big enough for everything but now magically it is sufficient. Secondly there is a big dirty hole in the side of our meter box with a cable just draped from it over to the old meters. I remember at the time they were insisting on steel trunking from the mouth of the duct to underneath the meter cabinets and then they can just come along and do this. The meter cabinet is not their property and no permission was sought for any holes to be drilled into the side.

What do ya think ???

M cebee

don't think you've much comeback when it comes to the 'service' and 'meter cabinets'

now.if you have an application with the 'mic' on it and there's a 'supply problem' you can complain is my best guess

RoundyMooney

Pretty much. If the guy experiences transient voltage drops due to load, something might be possible.

Did you check the loop impedance? If it wasn't an issue before then it shouldn't be now, but still...

Is the cabinet you provided outdoors? Just trying to quantify how invasive this new loop might be.

Thing is, the ESB are quite entitled to take a loop from their own main fuse unit, and I doubt that there was any great conspiracy (not saying you're alluding to one, but talking of legalities), to have you or your customer cover the cost of providing a new more suitable supply. ESB is heavily budget conscious these days, but not to that degree.

There are only two avenues open to this guy, firstly, if the new cable run feeding the neighbour(s)is unsightly or if they've damaged anything, or if the increased load is affecting his own installation.

intbn

knx wrote: »

ESB had been in and disconnected the old cable, drilled a hole into our meter box and connected the old meters into our new connection. Now these old meters are nothing to do with us and are metering someone elses property

alright knx,
i read your newer post but was still a bit conflustered.
-the owner(contrary arse) had an old meter cabinet(s)
-you fit new meter cabinets close by
-the esb came in and took the old service cable out
-then the esb bushin'd the new service cable into the side(!?) of your new meter cabinet but then literally brought the cable from there to the old meter in the old/other owners cabinets??

can't get me head around it sorry, but just thought i'd post because i'd be interested in knowing the perdicument and thought i might have some useful help.

For one, i know going by the esb's own "national_code_of_practice.pdf" that for domestic metering(as far a i remember), the meter cabinet has to have it's service cables come in on the bottom left and tails out the bottom right(no holes in sides or top), and also made ready with a suitably sized gland(IP55) for them(which you probably already know), but it could be different for this case if it's a multi-occupancy/commercial job.
The use in that link is hopefully you'll know where you stand and if the ESB aren't going by their own rules, you can quote them on them

knx wrote: »

Now I'm a bit peeved at this because first of all they said the cable was not big enough for everything but now magically it is sufficient

I've not a lot of experience with these dealing with the ESB side of things so bare with my observation but do you reckon the ESB might consider the new service cable to have a higher MIC(even though it's the same size) because of it's a new/different installation method(underground in ducting Method D of the ETCI) as opposed to through the roofspace(clipped direct? say Method C of the ETCI)
I'd expect it would have a lower loop impedance anyway, if that even play's a part in their assessment of the MIC.

in fairness i just looked up a PVC insulated cable in the etci rules of say a 3PH 16sq cable and it actually has a higher current carrying capacity 76A surface clipped(method C), than the same cable in a duct(method D) of 67A

knx

Alright intbn,
This is typical now of the hassle involved in doing a job for this guy. It's even difficult to explain.

Originally this guy owned the entire building and it was split into 2 shop units, 2 apartments and a workshop at the back. He sells the front half of the building but holds onto the workshop at the back which he demolishes. There was originally 6 single phase meters (2 were night rate meters for the apartments) and 1 three phase meter which was feeding the workshop. These meters were all mounted on a sheet of timber something like you see above the front door in an old house but multiplied by 8.

Now he replaced the workshop with a shop unit and 6 units which ultimately became bedsits and contained electric showers and cookers. So the old supply is no good and we have the ESB come in and have a look. We're lookin for a single phase meter for the shop unit and uprated three phase connection. (12 kva to 16) The meters for the whole building are still in his half of it so in the end we decide we will pull a new cable to our meters and ultimately separate the two buildings completely. With a view to getting the old meters relocated at some stage.

Because space was an issue we put in those farmyard type meter cubicles so doors wouldn't have to be opened to read the meter. What I discovered the other day was a hole had been drilled into the side of the one of the meter boxes and a cable had been looped across to the old meters and the original supply was done away with. So we had separated the two buildings and now here they are looped again. I understand that anything on the ESBs side of the meter is their business but surely they can't drill into the side of your cabinet without at least asking permission first. If permission is sought at least you have a chance to object if your not happy. Now that the deed is done there's no chance of gettin it removed I reckon.

Any clearer ? I'm just pi%%ed off that we went to the trouble of trying to separate everything and now we're sort of back to square one..

Davy

knx wrote: »

Any clearer ? I'm just pi%%ed off that we went to the trouble of trying to separate everything and now we're sort of back to square one..

No help now i guess, but you tell them that you wanted to separate the two buildings? You could ring the local depo involved and ask to speak to the manger/engineer

intbn

knx wrote: »

I understand that anything on the ESBs side of the meter is their business but surely they can't drill into the side of your cabinet without at least asking permission first. If permission is sought at least you have a chance to object if your not happy. Now that the deed is done there's no chance of gettin it removed I reckon.

Any clearer ? I'm just pi%%ed off that we went to the trouble of trying to separate everything and now we're sort of back to square one..

I think I get ye knx, from what i remember me DIT instructor telling us, the ESB are RESPONSIBLE for their side of the installation(so any feck ups, they'll have to sort), just as the electrical contractor's responsible for their side(the consumer side), this obviously only applies to the cable itself and the meter/main cut out because like i said, you do have to have the meter cubicle ready with an IP55 gland suitably sized and like you said yourself, they wanted you to use trunking from the ducting on to the cubicle, are you still gona fit the trunkin? say it'll be possible with a bitta hardship.
i think it's just a misscommunication in spec, probably a conversation the "builder" had with the ESB and just wanted them in and out when it suited him and never mentioned he'd want to move the old meters in future, then again he could have rang them and they said, we'll loop it for 200E or it'll be 250E for directly into the new meter.
have a look at the ESB codes of practice link i posted before, i don't think there would be much of use in the Electricity Regulations Act 1999 or Part 3(Electricity) of the Safety, Health and Welfare At Work 2007 Regulations in this case but, the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1927
might be useful to you, havn't read it but this is one statute they have to abide by, also ETCI have a Guide on the Management of Electrical Safety at Work, which has ESB related stuff but you have to buy it from them for about 50E:eek:

knx wrote: »

Because space was an issue we put in those farmyard type meter cubicles so doors wouldn't have to be opened to read the meter. What I discovered the other day was a hole had been drilled into the side of the one of the meter boxes and a cable had been looped across to the old meters and the original supply was done away with. So we had separated the two buildings and now here they are looped again.

is it anything like this?

If the builder proves to them in paper that the two properties have seperate owners and mentions that the other owner is soon to have them moved, he might get the ball rolling.
hope that lots of use