Why not give Jail Inmates work to do that in some way benefits Society

Nevermind_

Basically I think the state should try to find ways to make prisoners work as a way of paying for the social and financial costs on society of crime.

Now I dont mean forced labour camps, but even things as simple as cleaning grafitti or cleaning roadways or parks or litter black spots.
In the U.S. prisoners are allowed to do various kinds of work such as adopting a highway or making licence plates and are paid, albeit very little to do so.

Giving prisoners something to do will boost their self esteem and in return society gets SOMETHING back for the cost of keeping someone in Jail.


I have considered the cost of bringing prisoners outside prison grounds, and it cant be that much more than what we already spend per prisoner per day to keep them in cells. But surely there are ways to make this easier, GPS based ankle tags etc.

Also I'd be slow to let the most hardened/violent criminals in on the scheme.

A simple pilot scheme with non violent offenders and small numbers would be a good start to see if its feasible.


And I honestly believe that at least some inmates would welcome the break from the monotony and boredom of prison

There are schemes run in other countries where prisoners work from within the prisons, removing the need for security outside. The cell dog program benefits both animals who are rehabilitated and trained, the prisoners themselves learn skills from having to care for a living creature, and the people who eventually end up with a trained helper dog. There are also other areas like laundry schemes, sorting recycleable materials, re-organisation of database information etc that could be done from within the prison walls.

Additionally, research has shown that inmates who leave correctional facilities after working are 18 percent less likely to return to prison than inmates who did not. They have learned many of the skills it takes to succeed, creating a smoother transition back into society.
It furthermore allows released inmates to support families who might currently depend on public assistance. And that saves our government money.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying its a panacea, and it wont plug the hole in our public finances but it is doable and could benefit this country.

What do people think?

genericguy

no, never. because prison in ireland is supposed to be about having nice drugs and a game of pool, while networking to establish links in the criminal underworld so that the offender can gain "employment" when they finish.

now you lot can all call for rapists and murderers to be punished, but at the end of the day, we need to keep treating them better than their victims so that they may one day do something nice.

[/sarc]

Kent Brockman

Chain gangs I say!

Nevermind_

also the thought of seeing someone like John Gilligan cleaning up dog sh1t warms my soul!!:D

Prof.Badass

If it becomes ok to make prisoners work you create a situation where a government might someday start sending people to prison unfairly or for unfair amounts of time simply because they want more cheap labour.

It's a question of making safegaurds for the future. How much do you trust that an evil cúnt/ complete idiot will never come to power in Ireland?

I would be inclined to think we can't make these assumptions. Who knows what the world will be like in 30/40 years time?

I just don't think you should ever allow room for punishments to become about anything other than justice (another example of this sort of behaviour is when they started sterilising people for the tiniest of crimes in india (and probably some innocent people too) with the ulterior motive of trying to control population).

MrPain

Nevermind_ wrote: »

also the thought of seeing someone like John Gilligan cleaning up dog sh1t warms my soul!!:D

You want to see him showering:eek:

Jumpy

vinylmesh wrote: »

If it becomes ok to make prisoners work you create a situation where a government might someday start sending people to prison unfairly or for unfair amounts of time because they want more cheap workers.

It's a question of making safegaurds for the future. How much do you trust that an evil dickhead/misguided idiot will never come to power in Ireland. It's not as if democracy is foolproof (afterall hitler came to power democratically).

I would say for this reason.

Do you think you could have left it a few more posts before Godwinning it?

L.Jenkins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Go get Joe and He'll sort out Irish Criminals and Prisons. His head nearly spun off his neck when he learned of the luxury enjoyed in Irish Prisons.

Sheeps

yes let's have the convicted pedos working in community schools

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Why not get people off the dole to do whatever work needs doing? Eases unemployment and puts more money irculating in the economy.

Nevermind_

Sheeps wrote: »

yes let's have the convicted pedos working in community schools

:eek:
I never suggested anything like that, there are ways of doing it that doesnt endanger society

Prof.Badass

Jumpy wrote: »

Do you think you could have left it a few more posts before Godwinning it?

fixed .

bazmaiden

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why not get people off the dole to do whatever work needs doing? Eases unemployment and puts more money irculating in the economy.

brilliant idea i think anyone who has been on the dole for the past 3-4 yrs should be forced to contribute to their local community

WalterMitty

Make them raise crops and animals in fields to feed themselves. Make them resurface roads in bad condition.

L.Jenkins

bazmaiden wrote: »

brilliant idea i think anyone who has been on the dole for the past 3-4 yrs should be forced to contribute to their local community

Set a minimum number of hours per week that a person should work voluntarily, should they feel like sponging off the state! Lets say 15 to 20 hours.

Herb Powell

Is this not done already? Somebody told me some of the men who pick up litter on the streets are "convicts"

bildo

djhunter30 wrote: »

Set a minimum number of hours per week that a person should work voluntarily, should they feel like sponging off the state! Lets say 15 to 20 hours.

At the moment, voluntary work seems to be severly discouraged too those on benefits. I asked about this and it can put your payments in jeopardy if you volunteer too many hours.

The issue of prisoners working is a very complex one for the reasons already outlined. History show the US of being major herders of cheao labour. It would be wise to pretty much ignore the American prison system as it is one of the most failed in the the world, probably THE most failed. 1% of americans are in prison at any one time, that's one in every hundred people. Something seriously wrong there.
I am fairly certain also that the majority of American highways were built by convicts. Would be interesting to look up the number of actual miles...

L.Jenkins

I understand there is issues with working too many hours, but there should be some incentive to do something! Idle hands are evil things.

Also, have a look at tent city in Arizona. The prison sees the lowest rate of reoffenders in the entire country, and humans rights groups whinge about it! Where were these groups when the criminals commited there crime!

Nevermind_

bildo wrote: »

The issue of prisoners working is a very complex one for the reasons already outlined. History show the US of being major herders of cheao labour. It would be wise to pretty much ignore the American prison system as it is one of the most failed in the the world, probably THE most failed. 1% of americans are in prison at any one time, that's one in every hundred people. Something seriously wrong there.
I am fairly certain also that the majority of American highways were built by convicts. Would be interesting to look up the number of actual miles...

As I said in my first post I'm not talking about forced labour camps or working someone to death.
And I totally agree with you that the American prison system is hardly anything to admire but that doesnt mean they dont have SOME good ideas.

Run_to_da_hills

I thought that inmates still sewed buttons on Garda uniforms.

Gillington

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why not get people off the dole to do whatever work needs doing? Eases unemployment and puts more money irculating in the economy.

bazmaiden wrote: »

brilliant idea i think anyone who has been on the dole for the past 3-4 yrs should be forced to contribute to their local community

djhunter30 wrote: »

Set a minimum number of hours per week that a person should work voluntarily, should they feel like sponging off the state! Lets say 15 to 20 hours.

Completely different thread but anyways,what do you want them(us) to do? If schemes like ths were to take off and become somewhat successful,no doubt the government will use the un-employed to do other jobs where they already employ people or have contracts with,thus pushing them towards un-employment.No for me.

Overheal

Nevermind_ wrote: »

As I said in my first post I'm not talking about forced labour camps or working someone to death.
And I totally agree with you that the American prison system is hardly anything to admire but that doesnt mean they dont have SOME good ideas.

The Re-offender rate is ridiculous still. Though to be fair I question how much of that is in the Ex-Con's nature to re-offend and how much of it is Previous Convictions that weigh on him when he gets pulled over for running a red light, etc. And any misdemeanor on Parole is a pretty quick way to go back in. Broken as of yet.

But more on the point, giving inmates a job is hugely beneficial for rehabilitation. They get a wage, they get it when they leave, this gives them a springboard to get back into life again. As well as that it reinforces good habits, like you know, holding a job, not robbing convenience stores for your rent money. These jobs are granted on a Good Behavior basis.

At the store here, a lot of the Hand-Scraped wood floors we sell have all been done by an in-mate workforce. So much nicer looking than the machine scrapes, also.

twinQuins

Ten posts in and already the dole is brought up. Surely this has to be some kind of record.

caseyann

They should make them clean out the canals and other parts of Ireland and housing that's abandoned etc... and dole abusers aswell do things like that.I have been saying it for years.

ddef

Sure, they spent enough time on the streets when they were on the outside.
Give em a break now that theyre under lock.

Tigger

Morkarleth wrote: »

Ten posts in and already the dole is brought up. Surely this has to be some kind of record.

are you on the dole?

edit : troll account 73 in 7 years all agressive says i go

IvySlayer

As long as they don't get a wage, fine by me. Clean streets, dig, repaint buildings, clean beaches, cut the grass, mend the sidewalks, roadwork, replant trees. Endless chores.

twinQuins

Tigger wrote: »

are you on the dole?

edit : troll account 73 in 7 years all agressive says i go

Oh, well done, I've finally been exposed. I find your initial response quite...interesting. Why was your first thought that I must be on the dole?

Is it so incomprehensible that I disagree with the majority AH opinion?

Tigger

Morkarleth wrote: »

Oh, well done, I've finally been exposed. I find your initial response quite...interesting. Why was your first thought that I must be on the dole?

Is it so incomprehensible that I disagree with the majority AH opinion?

answer the interesting bit

twinQuins

No. Your turn.

Tigger

Morkarleth wrote: »

No. Your turn.

cos its late and all the civil servants that populate this place during the day are asleep


also the mejia are polarising ployed / unployed public / private
fina fail liar in dail / fina fail liar in court

spose i just wondered

my go; what do you do for a living

twinQuins

Oh fuck sake, I'm not playing this game.

That you ask, I'm going to assume you think I'm some "lololol idealistic hippy studenty type", though I could be wrong. Again, I'm chalking this up to having lurked AH a long time and knowing what its denizens think of students.
By my unwillingness to answer you may go ahead and assume I am one. I don't care.

This thread comes up, I'd say a couple of times every month. And every time the same points are needlessly expounded upon with most people just bitching about how they hate "scumbags/civil servants/people on the dole/cops/young people/whatever flavour of the month group".
I'm tired of seeing the same crap trotted out over and over.

EDIT: But this isn't the place for another of my personal spats.

EDIT2: Also,

I'm tired of seeing the same crap trotted out over and over.

In before (i) someone tells me not to come here any more, or, (ii)I'm questioned about still coming here.

brendansmith

Everyones always complaining about the cost of childcare in this country.

Maybe if we opened creches and got prisoners to be the carers it would bring down prices.

Bodhisopha

Nevermind_ wrote: »

Basically I think the state should try to find ways to make prisoners work as a way of paying for the social and financial costs on society of crime.

Now I dont mean forced labour camps, but even things as simple as cleaning grafitti or cleaning roadways or parks or litter black spots.
In the U.S. prisoners are allowed to do various kinds of work such as adopting a highway or making licence plates and are paid, albeit very little to do so.

Giving prisoners something to do will boost their self esteem and in return society gets SOMETHING back for the cost of keeping someone in Jail.


What do people think?

Because nothing boosts your self esteem like picking up used condoms with a pointy stick?

zimovain

In the States hardened convicts in some prisons train dogs for blind people etc. Is there anything like this in Irish prisons? These guys on the documentary were thugs and nothing more but at least they were doing something worthwhile.

Thoie

One useful thing that could be done is training prisoners (or those on the dole if you like) in digitising old paper based records. While there are some people working on this for certain areas, there are mountains of old paper records around the country.

The people currently employed could continue working on the more sensitive documents.

The initial cost outlay is pretty small, there's no additional prison guards needed, no additional "escape" opportunities.

Society ends up with something useful - easy access to archived material.
The prisoners learn useful skills - computer skills, database/CMS skills.

Prisoners could potentially man volunteer phone lines (such as The Samaritans or Childline), but there's a whole can of worms waiting in that idea - it may prove unworkable.

hooradiation

djhunter30 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Go get Joe and He'll sort out Irish Criminals and Prisons. His head nearly spun off his neck when he learned of the luxury enjoyed in Irish Prisons.

I love it when people cite this guy, it shows they haven't a fucking clue what they're babbling about.

seamus

The actual problem here is human rights legislation/agreements.

Prisoners are by and large still afforded the same human rights as the rest of us, with the exception of their liberty.

You could have them work, but if you paid them nothing and forced them to work, that's slavery. Someone would take a case to the ECHR and win.

You could pay them, but then you would have to pay them minimum wage, and why give a jailbird piece of **** the money when you could have an honest Joe out working for an honest wage.

You could enact legislation which allows the government to pay them very small amounts (this is how the USA gets around slavery legislation), but again you'll get a high court or a ECHR challenge on the basis of discrimination or unfairness or some equal such bollox.

Even if the above went through, you would have the prison service providing public services (think road sweeping, digging, etc) for next to nothing and the companies who currently do this work couldn't compete and would be out of business. Or you would have the civil service complaining. The competition authority would get involved and the government would probably have to shut down their operation.

Here's a better idea - allow people to run legitimate businesses from Prison, selling services.
So for example you provide a prisoner with the tools and and the materials to start building wardrobes from within the prison. The public can go online and buy these things and the prison service ships it out. The prison service takes the cost of the materials, 10% for the workshop/tools and a 40% cut off the top, and the rest of the money goes into trust for the prisoner, given to him when he's released from prison.

Prisoners learn the reality of working for an honest buck, build up skills and a reputation for themselves and a nice nest egg on release from prison.

galah

maybe a silly question, but the other day, I heard that while you're in prison, you continue to get social welfare as well?! Sweet.

Can anyone actually confirm this? (cause that would be an outrage...and increase the cost of keeping people in prison even further...)

Nevermind_

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Because nothing boosts your self esteem like picking up used condoms with a pointy stick?

Its still better than picking up soap in the shower!!

Lux23

So would the prisoners be paid for this work?

My name is URL

I wonder how much it would cost to insure criminals who were working outside of prison, and how much it would cost to have the system put into place where it was safe to allow them to do so

jimmyendless

I think a system where if you do no work in prison you just get the bog standard food and privileges. Do some work and you get better food and entertainment or whatever. That way no prisoner has to do something they don't want to and you don't have to point a gun at them to do it.

failsafe

My understanding of the problem is that the economics just don't work out.

The cost of bringing a modern day chain gang out to build roads or clean streets is just too high when you factor in security, food, transportation etc.

I've seen studies (but unfortunately can't find any links) that suggest it'd be cheaper for a government just to hire a load of unemployed people to do the work rather than prison labour.

The one area that this might work out cost effective is work done within the prison walls. Like some folk have already suggested, sewing buttons or scanning documents would be useful but shouldn't cost too much more than just detaining the prisoners.