As a cyclist, how would you make this roundabout safer?

Trotter

I've heard that a local area is about to be "targetted" for helping cyclists to get to local schools / shops. There are a lot of estates in a suburban area that all lead to one road that links that area to a concentrated number of schools/shops about 2 miles away.

Here's a map of the general route.



There's a cycle track running along part of the route at the moment but its destroyed with holes and debris/glass/sunken shores etc. The noises are that the cycle paths will be fixed. I would love to have a good proposal to bring to the powers that be that would improve the problem at the roundabout for cyclists turning right towards the schools.

About 50m before the roundabout theres a blind bend. As a cyclist, you have to move to the right just before/after that bend in order to get into the right lane for the roundabout. You have to have serious nerves because the cars fly around the bend at the 50km limit for the area. If you've looked over your shoulder and signalled, you can still be slapped because the car wont have time to see you and brake slowly. If you move to the right before the bend, you spend a lot of time cycling on the white line and it doesnt seem the right thing to do. Aggressive drivers will beep you off the road.

Is there some sort of system in other cities that would suit this junction? The roundabout has only recently been finished so thats not going to be adjusted. Is there such thing as a cycle track that continues onto a roundabout and beyond? The majority of cyclists in this case would be going in the direction marked B.

If you were the cycling advisor here, what ideas could you bring to the table? I'd like to be well informed before I go bringing ideas to some of the decision makers on this one.

Just giving my point of view... I've only had a tiny bit of highway design training but one thing mentioned at it was how roundabouts are just messy for cyclists. The only way to get around one safely would be to be assertive and take the lane. I know that there was a test study in York in England a good few years ago for a cycle lane through the roundabout which had two lanes, one to go straight ahead and one to turn left (details at the end of here: http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/cdg-chapter8.pdf). I have to say I haven't tried cycling on it myself but I think the idea looks good.

Is the cycle track entering the roundabout on road or off road? One thing I'd say is that I'd be of the opinion the track should end early and that cyclists are advised to go into the correct lane, preferably by putting a cycle lane from lane 1 into lane 2 as it flares.
I've seen a few lanes 'split' before junctions so that one cycle lane would continue straight on ahead while another would be for cyclists to go right, which would bring you into the correct lane, and then around the roundabout, perhaps that's an idea if done in advance of the junction?

As for the blind bend, I assume they wouldn't be in favour of purchasing a slip of the land by the blind bend to smooth it out? If it's a country road in any way the bushes/trees at the side should be considered since, well, if they aren't maintained and cut back there's no point of improving a cycle lane. Speaking of maintenance, perhaps ask what they will be doing to maintain any facilities they put in place for cyclists?

As one massive favour, please labour the point for them NOT to put a cycle lane around the outside of the roundabout, which gives the impression of right of way but usually puts the cyclist in the line of fire.

What's going to be in the middle of the roundabout? Grass or some monument? Reason I ask is that will someone in a vehicle be able to see that there's a possibly fast moving cyclist coming near them from a good angle, so they don't cut them off? Plus the point should probably be made about not having too much signage clutter which could block visibility.

Someone else will probably have better points but that's just what came to mind.

Trotter

Thanks for that..

Just a couple of things.. The bend is very long and the land couldnt be purchased. The council is pretty broke!

The roundabout is only about 2.5 metres across and its one of those fried egg jobs.

The existing cycle lane (from memory) ends well before the roundabout, or else goes straight ahead and keeps out of the way to the left hand side. It doesnt go onto the roundabout in any way.

Do you suggest that the cycle lane would cut across the road and set the cyclist into the lane to turn right? Im not sure if that would help because even if you did that, the cars coming around the bend would still wipe you out. Turning right would be the priority for cyclists here because thats where the schools are.

ArraMusha

Bulldoze a cycling lane through it.:)

IM0

put one of those beware of weaving cyclists type signs (Ive even seen pics of them on jhere before so someone might post it up) up in the sight lines before the blind bend top warn drivers of the possibility of cyclists suddenly appearing infront of them near the roundabout. and speed ramps coming into that blind corner, sleeping policamen style..short and sharp spine killer to any muppets not slowing down

problem solved..

next.

Doctor Bob

What's the traffic like in the area? You say it's a 50 km/h limit, but
- is it a very busy road?
- how many lanes approach the roundabout on each arm?
- are all arms of the roundabout equally busy, or is there a dominant pattern of movement?

There's no single answer to your query, and the type of solution proposed would depend on the local situation. Having said that, there are a few pretty simple and cheap measures of a fairly universal nature that could be quite effective, including
- making sure there's only one lane entry and one lane exit on all arms
- making the entry onto the roundabout perpendicular rather than tangential to it
- reducing the speed limit on the approaches (the bad bend might dictate this anyway- hard to say without knowing the specifics)
- reducing the actual speed on the approaches by tightening the geometry of the lanes
- reducing the width of the circulation lane on the roundabout itself (and making it single lane circulation if it isn't already)

Alternatively, take out the roundabout altogether and make it a signal controlled junction.

(Is this related to the DoT's Smarter Travel Areas thing?)

Doctor Bob

I should add that there are other solutions such as the Danish approach, whereby circulating cyclists on the roundabout (on one of those perimeter lanes we all hate so much) have priority over traffic turning off it, but this depends on two things we don't really have- a law to back it up, and drivers who are themselves often cyclists.

Are the powers that be amenable to innovative solutions that go beyond current accepted wisdom or existing legislation?

Trotter

Doctor Bob wrote: »

What's the traffic like in the area? You say it's a 50 km/h limit, but
- is it a very busy road?
- how many lanes approach the roundabout on each arm?
- are all arms of the roundabout equally busy, or is there a dominant pattern of movement?

-
-
-
-

(Is this related to the DoT's Smarter Travel Areas thing?)

Its a fairly busy road during rush hours alright. Its very busy in the morning going in the direction A>B and B>A in the evenings. Realistically, the only arm that fits two cars for 2 lanes is the A>B direction.

There really is only one main problem with the whole setup and its turning right in the direction of B. Strong signage and a cycle lane that weaves out and puts the cyclist into the correct lane from the A direction might help. It would mean if a cyclist was hit, it would be from a car that crossed a cycle lane without due attention.

Because the road is fairly quiet outside of rush hour , I dont think ramps will help.


I'm not even sure what the DoT's Smarter Travel Areas thing is.. this is just me doing a bit of research so I can be clued in to talk to some local reps about it if possible.

Doctor Bob

The Department of Transport set up a fund last year to finance sustainable travel initiatives in various places. IIRC, it was up to either local authorities or community groups (or both?) to propose areas or schemes for inclusion. This seems like it might be one of them.

IMO, any solution that requires the cyclist to weave in front of traffic and fight his corner on a roundabout* wouldn't be sufficient if the purpose is to get more kids cycling to school. Knowing that you or your precious offspring were hit only because a driver wasn't paying attention sounds like pretty cold comfort to me.

*Corners on roundabouts? Hmmm...

Trotter

Exactly, so given that Ireland has so many roundabouts, I would say that theres a huge number of routes where turning right at a roundabout is essential.

I might try get some photos of the area over the weekend.

Doctor Bob

Essential or not, as long as it's not illegal it should be accommodated. On routes to schools in suburban areas, it should be facilitated at the expense of pretty much anything else.

(I don't mean to suggest this about your query, but I sometimes suspect that we more hardcore cyclists can forget that there are novices, young and old cyclists, or just cyclists of a more risk-averse disposition out there. What suits you or me may well be unlikely to suit little Jimmy or Grandpa Joe.)

Photos might help alright. Cheers.

Lumen

me@ucd wrote: »

speed ramps coming into that blind corner, sleeping policamen style..short and sharp spine killer to any muppets not slowing down

Can I send you the bill for repairing my wheels then?

Roads are for cyclists too.

beans

Just had a thought on roundabouts this morning, actually.

Imagine you have two lanes coming onto a roundabout. If there were a cycle-lane in the left lane, but toward the middle or right-hand side of the lane, so that a bike in that lane would be effectively taking the left-hand lane entirely. Therefore, any cyclist sticking to the lane would be perfectly positioned to take any exit. Cars in the left lane would be forced to follow behind cyclists until the bike turns off, at which point the bike will have flowed to the left of the lane, and the car can pass safely.

Basically, forcing bikes to take the lane.



In the case the OP outlines, putting this 'middle-of-the-road' cycle-lane before the blind bend would alert cars to what's ahead, potentially cyclists in the lane.

Hope the pic makes some sense... The dots represent dotted-white line delineating the lanes. The orange is your bike-lane. Green thing is a bike, yellow rectangle is your car unable to pass bike.

tomasrojo

It's anathema to road engineers, but they should really just stop building roundabouts. They're fine for four-wheeled vehicles, terrible for everyone else.

Cycle lanes in general don't make any contribution to real safety (as opposed to the perception of safety), and there's no way I've ever seen of putting a safe cycle lane onto a roundabout. beans might have a point, since htat approach would formalise the safest approach a cyclist can take. But you can bet the Pat Kenny-George Hook axis would be bloviating about how ludicrous it was within days. It also probably makes the roundabout more confusing, but since I don't drive much, I'm not 100% sure what drivers find confusing.

tomasrojo

Perhaps you could have two cycle-only routes diverging before the blind bend, one heading off the right and one heading off the left rejoining the main roads after the roundabout, with a toucan crossing to help the cyclists on the right arm get back onto the main road?