Electric heating

Noxin

Can anyone tell what sort of effect electric heating will have on the bill in comparison to gas heating?
Thinking of renting a place but this is the one thing k am unsure of.

Many thanks :-)

Treehouse72

I have found my single electric bill to be less than the electric + gas bills I got in my previous place (both about the same sized property).

However, I have storage heaters in my new place so I can't say for certain whether the lower bill is down to cheaper (electric) heating or down to the fact it's storage heaters. My guess would be a combo of both, AND I will be switching to a cheaper provider than ESB soon which should reduce it more. Oh, and this has been an expensive winter! So I'd guess electric might be a bit cheaper all round.

I would also say that I do much prefer just 1 bill coming in the letterbox. And if I recall correctly, my gas bill used have a standing charge on it that I resented paying.

Del2005

Noxin wrote: »

Can anyone tell what sort of effect electric heating will have on the bill in comparison to gas heating?
Thinking of renting a place but this is the one thing k am unsure of.

Many thanks :-)

Electric heating is more expensive then gas. I had a sparks in recently and he flinched when he saw the ampage my storage heater was drawing. Your best bet when looking is the ask for the BER rating, then go with the lowest BER rating and then heating shouldn't be too bad.

The_Conductor

I'd echo what Del has said- if the property is well insulated, even expensive forms of heating can work out reasonably enough- but if you're loosing heat- then obviously the lowest possible heating methods makes most sense.

A purely electric heating system would not be a deal breaker for me- if the BER rating was good.

Noxin

Thanks for the updates.

I'll get the BER rating from the agent I was speaking with

RentDayBlues

I have just electric heating, all underfloor and it is slightly cheaper than gas and electric.

JackReacher1980

Folks, moved into an apartment a few months ago, and have only one elctricity bill. Its a three bed, with only storage heating. Bills are working out over 300 euro. We heat the water for showers at night, I rarely use the washing machine. I'm not sure we are using the storage heating correctly, any advice?

The_Conductor

JackReacher1980 wrote: »

Folks, moved into an apartment a few months ago, and have only one elctricity bill. Its a three bed, with only storage heating. Bills are working out over 300 euro. We heat the water for showers at night, I rarely use the washing machine. I'm not sure we are using the storage heating correctly, any advice?

My last electricity bill was EUR186 and in addition I have my gas bill here of EUR284. This is electricity and gas usage for the past 2 months. Your bills will always be higher at this time of the year- and the cold snap a few weeks ago has caused bills to soar.

Your immersion heater is probably a significant use of electricity- but so too is your storage heaters etc.

When you moved into the house- did you request and check the BER certificate for the property (this will indicate how well its insulated and what your likely heating requirements may be). That said- electric heating is one of the least efficient form of heating- what settings do you have the storage heater set to- even dropping it to 20 degrees, which is barely noticeable, can knock a serious chunk off your electricity requirements.

Your recent bills- have they been actual readings or estimated bills?

Guell72

My sister lives in an Apartment and has electric storage heating.
She says ESB bill is cheaper than ESB + Gas heating in her last 2 places.
Gas is not cheap anymore. If electric storage heating is used correctly its very good.

JackReacher1980

Trying to figure out if we are using it correctly!!! I put the imput at the highest setting (9), when I go to bed, then turn it back down to 0 in the mornings. We never adjust the output, it is always at zero.

JackReacher1980

Also, we rented the apartment without actually seeing the BER, it was actually only done in the last couple of weeks! We are first time renters, so this is all new to us!

The_Conductor

JackReacher1980 wrote: »

Trying to figure out if we are using it correctly!!! I put the imput at the highest setting (9), when I go to bed, then turn it back down to 0 in the mornings. We never adjust the output, it is always at zero.

Last time I was in a place with storage heating- it had a timer- it came on at night automatically between set hours, and during the day only if temperatures fell below a set level. There were 4 dials- dealing with different temperatures and the time settings. You really need to talk to someone who is familiar with your specific heating system- possibly neighbours? and get them to tell you the intricacies and how to operate it efficiently.

If you're blasting the heat @ level 9- even on the nighttime rate- it will add up quickly- esp. in the wintertime.

Re: the BER cert- this is a measure of the energy rating of the building. It gives you an idea of how well it is insulated. At present its impossible to say whether your valiant attempts at heating the apartment are simply going straight out the window (literally).

shoegirl

Guell72 wrote: »

If electric storage heating is used correctly its very good.

It depends on the insulation of the building or unit if its a flat or apartment. If the place is well insulated and receives a lot of natural light there is a good chance it will work out cheaper. It also depends on the size and type of storage heater, the size, layout of the property and where the heaters are located. Some have additional controls that permit fan heating or come on if the temperature drops - these would cost you a little more.

From my own and friends experience, generally buildings that are well insulated with enclosed rooms/spaces can be cheaper sometimes to heat with storage heaters. However normal 3 beds without extensive insulation will cost a hell of a lot more - landlords sometimes put them in because there is almost no maintenance on them and they have longer lives than many oil fired systems.

As for the comment that gas has a standing charge, actually if you've got nightsaver rates on ESB (which you MUST have for night storage or else you'll really be gouged) there is also a higher standing charge.

The problem I've had with storage heating in the past and present is - aside from the very high cost - it doesn't heat the place evenly, if at all, in fact half of the place I'm currently in doesn't get heated sufficiently to use it at all (basically on full blast I get to about 15c which is still below the comfort threshold) while the older part of the flat gets far too hot at night but loses heat during the day.
The real issue with storage heating is that because it mainly heats the place at daytime, if you are a normal 8 until 18hrs worker it will heat the place while you are not in the building, rather than when you are, at a very expensive rate, leaving a shortfall in heating during the evenings.

It probably works best for people who are not working or studying or night shifters. I found gas very cheap in the past - very economical for the kind of building it was. Storage heating unfortunately is often the mark of a thrown together rental property thats been converted at minimal cost or an older property thats not been maintained to modern standards. Try to avoid storage or electric-only heating when renting entirely, its usually a strong sign of a dated and ill-maintained property or a substandard cheap conversion.

JackReacher1980

First time renters, I'll live and learn! I think the whole apartment block has storage heating. We have never met any of our neighbours - we are the only ones on top floor, and no one else ever seems to be around in our block, anyway.
Our heater seems to only have imput and output, and a third button, that I think boosts the heat?
We also have no access to our meters, so have no clue of our usage!

Del2005

JackReacher1980 wrote: »

First time renters, I'll live and learn! I think the whole apartment block has storage heating. We have never met any of our neighbours - we are the only ones on top floor, and no one else ever seems to be around in our block, anyway.
Our heater seems to only have imput and output, and a third button, that I think boosts the heat?
We also have no access to our meters, so have no clue of our usage!

The storage heaters work off a separate timer, they will come on from 23:00 to 08:00 in winter and 00:00 to 09:00 in summer. There should also be some dials in in your fuse box(are they still called fuse boxes?) that will allow you to increase of decrease the time they are on.

I have storage heaters and they are a pain to use. I've tried playing with the input and output settings but can't get a comfortable setting. The place is too warm, I've fairly good insulation. The only way to cool down is to open windows or my bedroom, which I keep colder, and that defeats the purpose.

One thing to consider is that running the storage heater at night if your working all day could be costing more then running the blow heater for a few hours when you get home.

seamus

JackReacher1980 wrote: »

Trying to figure out if we are using it correctly!!! I put the imput at the highest setting (9), when I go to bed, then turn it back down to 0 in the mornings. We never adjust the output, it is always at zero.

:eek:

Storage heaters work by drawing electricity when it's cheaper at night, and storing it and releasing slowly during the day. The storage heater is wired to a separate circuit which only activates during nightsaver hours (11pm - 8am in winter, 12am - 9am in Summer).

You should never need to set the input to the maximum, ours go up to 6, and I would very rarely have it at 3. The highest I've ever had it was at 4 during the cold snap in January, and even then the house was toasty.

It's trial-and-error really. Keep an eye on the daily temperatures and adjust the input accordingly. Make a note of what's an appropriate input for certain heat ranges, i.e.
less than -5
-5 to 0
0 to 5
5 to 10
10 to 15

And write it down so that you know what to set it to next time So if it's 5 degrees today and you felt a little bit cold, turn the input up by one "point". If it's five degrees tomorrow but the house is too warm, drop the input by half a grade and so on.
Above 15 degrees, you should be able to turn off the heaters completely, and maybe even above 10 you could turn it off. There should be a switch at or near each heater that allows you to turn it off completely.

You don't need to turn down the input during the day because the input will be automatically switched off when daytime electricity rates kick in. You only need to adjust the output if you're feeling cold - the output controls how much heat is released from the heater at once. Make sure you turn the output to zero in the evenings or you'll waste a lot of electricity.

Yes, it takes a bit of effort and you will be cold some days cos you've gotten it wrong and far too hot some other days, but if you get it right your leccy bills should be a good deal lower than a combined leccy + gas/oil bill.

Also, since you have two meters, try to limit power-hungry appliances to overnight use, such as the washing machine, dishwasher, etc.

Dandelion6

seamus wrote: »

You should never need to set the input to the maximum, ours go up to 6, and I would very rarely have it at 3. The highest I've ever had it was at 4 during the cold snap in January, and even then the house was toasty.

I have mine at the maximum, and it's still not warm enough. I hate these things.

shoegirl

Dandelion6 wrote: »

I have mine at the maximum, and it's still not warm enough. I hate these things.

I'm the same. Putting them on costs 120 extra on my bill and still frozen. Can't wait for my lease to end so I can get out of there.

As I said earlier, there is no plumbing/boilers involved so they are much cheaper to put in and zero maintenance for builders/developers, they are generally not the sign of a high quality development.

For the OP who doesn't have access to the ESB meter - if its in a locked box you can buy a standard key in B&Q for about 2 euro, if elsewhere check your ESB bill and if it says E beside the readings the bill is estimated. Its worth checking just in case. My experience of these things though is that they are usually the hallmark of substandard overall developments so good chance that the massive bill IS the actual cost.

JackReacher1980

Thanks folks, turns out our bill was estimated, now have to get a correct reading from the management company. Need to check the lock on the meters, and see if we can buy one to open it.
So, I found that when I had the heating set to imput 5 and output 3, it was always toasty, so might go back to that! Our imput goes right up to 9

air

Just to add my 2 cents here.
Shoegirl is spot on here when she says that storage heating is a cheap and cheerful option used by developers to complete units for the lowest possible cost.
The only other people that it suits are the ESB as it creates an artificial market for energy for them at night time when there's very little demand. This subsidises their plant to run 24 hours per day which makes life easier for them.

From a cost / efficiency point of view you only need to look at very basic physics to see why gas heating / oil heating is going to be so much more efficient and thus cheaper.

A typical modern gas condensing boiler for example is often over 95% efficient.
This means that you're getting the heat benefit of nearly all the gas you burn.

Now compare this with electricity generation.
The energy supplier burns fuel (often gas) and turns this into electricity.
This process is not efficient - 40 to 60% at best.
The energy is then transmitted down power lines - more loss of energy and a further reduction of efficiency.

Basically
Gas->Heat->Electricity->Powerlines->Heater->Heat is never going to be as efficient as
Gas->Heat

When you factor in the capital costs of all the electricity generation and transmission hardware it really becomes a no brainer.
The whole structure of the energy market is Ireland (and probably everywhere else) was completely warped by the practice of turning electricity into low grade heat.
The suppliers knew from day one that using electricity for immersion heaters/storage heaters/electric showers was a total waste but of course they were always all for it as it increased their market!
The sad part is that people could get exactly the same performance through combi boilers / direct water heaters at much much greater efficiency.

Now for storage heaters - total crap pieces of equipment IMO, even aside from everything I've mentioned so far.
If you live in your apartment during the day fine, but if you only come home in the evening you'll find that the heat has probably leaked out during the day even if you switched the "output" to zero the night before.
They're basically a heater element wrapped around a few bricks in a thin steel box with little or no insulation.

/rant

Guell72

JackReacher1980 wrote: »

So, I found that when I had the heating set to imput 5 and output 3, it was always toasty, so might go back to that! Our imput goes right up to 9

Electric storage heating is only crap for people who dont know how to use it - and there are a lot of those people.

Try setting your output to 0 or 1 overnight and 0 when you are out. When you are home you can then have it turned up higher. This might allow you to turn the input down and save you more money.

air

You're dead right Guell, I've had to explain the operation of them to several people down through the years.
The problem is that they are very simple mechanical boxes with flaps & their operation is not intuitive.
While what you say is correct I've found that they're actually no good if you work during the day and want a bit of heat in the evening when you come home. I lived in a storage heated apartment for 9 months & ended up just using the convection heater part in the evenings - they're just too poorly insulated to retain the heat.

GeturGun

I always swore i would never buy a place with electric heating but had to compromise on all the other boxes it ticked. Anyway i have lived here for 3 yrs now and still hate hate hate the storage heaters - but that is cos i am one of these people ......................

Guell72 wrote: »

Electric storage heating is only crap for people who dont know how to use it - and there are a lot of those people.

Totally agree with the 2 quotes below

Del2005 wrote: »

One thing to consider is that running the storage heater at night if your working all day could be costing more then running the blow heater for a few hours when you get home.

air wrote: »

.
While what you say is correct I've found that they're actually no good if you work during the day and want a bit of heat in the evening when you come home. I lived in a storage heated apartment for 9 months & ended up just using the convection heater part in the evenings - they're just too poorly insulated to retain the heat.

I just use the convection part in the evenings and there is a thermostat in the living room also so the heater kicks on and off throughout the evening. Never once used the storage part of the heater (never really tried to figure it out TBH) but anyway I'd be of the opinion that I'm not there during the day so what's the point in storing up heat for HOURS at night that i'm not there to benefit from.

I also have a small heater in the hall with no controls and that also just kicks on and off with the hall thermostat and keeps the place generally warm.

But God, i would kill for gas heating and radiators.

gurramok

+1 to Shoegirl.

I'm lucky my place doesn't freeze with no heating. If I used the Electric storage heaters, that bill would be double guaranteed. I use portable heaters instead.

shoegirl

air wrote: »

Now for storage heaters - total crap pieces of equipment IMO, even aside from everything I've mentioned so far.
If you live in your apartment during the day fine, but if you only come home in the evening you'll find that the heat has probably leaked out during the day even if you switched the "output" to zero the night before.
They're basically a heater element wrapped around a few bricks in a thin steel box with little or no insulation.

You've hit it on the head, but part of my problem with them is unless there is some insulation in the buildings they are put into, they have little chance of heating the place adequately. They CAN work, if the room sizes and shapes are suited, and the building has some insulation. My issue with them is when they are dumped into unsuitable buildings as a cheap and low maintenance option - the tenant ends up paying for it.

BER might make a difference as it does expose buildings with very poor energy efficiency - which are strongly related to both the type of heating and insulation, but I'm noticing very few ads on Daft at present that give any rating, despite it being the law.

Dandelion6

Guell72 wrote: »

Electric storage heating is only crap for people who dont know how to use it - and there are a lot of those people.

Try setting your output to 0 or 1 overnight and 0 when you are out. When you are home you can then have it turned up higher. This might allow you to turn the input down and save you more money.

That would be great, if I had the ability to set the output. I don't. There is no "output" control on my storage heaters. So there is no way to prevent most of the heat being gone by the time I get home from work in the evening.

I just use the convection part in the evenings

When I've been forced to just use the convection part (such as when I've returned home from a holiday and wasn't around to turn on the storage the night before) I've been really cold. The convection alone doesn't get anywhere near warm enough in the middle of winter.

As I said... I hate these things

The_Conductor

Dandelion6 wrote: »

When I've been forced to just use the convection part (such as when I've returned home from a holiday and wasn't around to turn on the storage the night before) I've been really cold. The convection alone doesn't get anywhere near warm enough in the middle of winter.

As I said... I hate these things

How about supplementing the storage heater with the likes of an electric oil filled radiator. I've several friends who do this, rather than using the convectional settings on the storage heater- it appears to be a lot more effective (and fast) at heating a room (though it does chomp through electricity something awful).

S.

Dandelion6

smccarrick wrote: »

How about supplementing the storage heater with the likes of an electric oil filled radiator.

Yeah unfortunately that's what it comes down to. This is why I wish I just had gas heating in my new home. I never had to "supplement" that.

shoegirl

Dandelion is precisely right. If you have to bring in a second form of heating to be comfortable then the primary heating supplied is inadequate. This is why I am so anti-storage heating in the first place. It tends to be thrown in without checking is it going heat the place properly.

irishsparks

TBH if you are looking at costs for like for like heating systems gas is definitely cheaper. I would like to think that the reason ppl are seeing gas being more expensive is because of the usage i.e not temp controlled, timing controlled not being used, not incl. hot water and heating systems combined, as stated before older heating systems being used.

General Rule: Any form of electrical element is always more expensive than any other form of energy. (eg. convection heaters, immersions, electric showers, cookers etc)

Gas prices if you break it on average p/kwh is 0.052 where electricity is 0.14.
I have noticed that when houses appear cold people will come in and turn on the heating and obviously once it heats up your body can feel the temp change. It is proven that if you use Zone control, you immediately drop the costs as instead of trying to raise temps in a room by 12 degrees you only need to increase temp by 2-3 degree.

also as highlighted by other posters,you have to look at insulation, boiler eff, use of heat recovery units, simple thermostatic controllers etc....

Ppl tend to forget storage heating was brought in as a cheap, excuse for builders as they do not require additional piping etc... they also suited the electrical providers as demand grew in the daytime especially in the 90's were much equipment was capacitive, leading to the massive problem of unloading power during the night time, without having to shut off the generators...:D theres more useless info for ya :eek: