If you could choose the end game raiding you would choose...

TheDoc

So, got me thinking, just how many people want to go back to the "glory" days of raiding.

Me personally, I think it all stinks of elitism, or complete nostalgia.

I've been playing WoW since the blizzard friends and family alpha, thats nearly 6 years now. Through Vanilla I couldnt get close to end game content for a few reasons.

1)I had no friends that played with me, I was always playing by myself, therefore I'd no one to tell me if/when I was doing something wrong.

2)I had no guild. Obviously hampered me doing any endgame content, and this was because of the next point

3)Mindless grind for stupid resistance gear. Having to spend weeks farming for certain resistance, to go in to have a tank n spank fight. I had not got the time and to be honest didnt want to, did not seem fun one bit.

4)put aside the vast hours required from raid initial setup to completion.

Some of the end game content took nearly 9 hours, from intial raid setup, to completion, thats a hefty part of anyones day to set aside.


Now the game is more accessible to really anyone who wants to put the effort in to raid. In my case, it provided an option, a backdoor. I could put in the time, and get myself raiding.

I'm not a fantastic player, I'd hazard to say I'm good. I'm a decent player who is gradually getting better. I literally started raiding properly in the last 6 months. And I love it. But if ICC required me to farm frost res gear for weeks then spend weeks getting attuned, I wouldnt go near it, and its nothing to do with me being a scrub its because that is simply not fun.

And lets remember what boss mechanics we had in vanilla. Everything was tank n spank, you had to farm your resi gear, so you could stand in one spot, and just not die from aoe etc.

Now we have advanced mechanics, where you have to move and keep your dps up. Cant think of anything more difficult for a caster dps imo.

And remember the most important point. Back in vanilla, you hadnt got a wealth of strategy and tactics websites at your disposal. You hadnt got a guide to hold your hand through every class, and whisper what to do in your ear.

Now there is a huge community built around number crunching, spreadsheets, tactics and strats.

You can ding a char to 80, then read a guide how to play that class from step 1-20.

You can quickly find out how to go about killing a boss, and have a step by step walkthrough.

AS I said in a previous post, why not try the icc bosses without looking at guides, cause factually I know 99.9% of the guilds finished icc, did look at guides.

Without that absolute bonus, ( which it is) youd find the fights challenging and exciting, and very inventive.

Instead of just knowing whats coming and when and what to do, you get a filthy suprise and theres panic, then people need to react and adjust, instead of being pre-emptive.

So that leads to an interesting ideal, has the game gotten easier by design, or by the vast amounts of walkthroughs present.

What guilds clear instances without using guides?

Im my opinion if you walk into a raid, clear it relatively quickly, and then say " thats ****, was too easy" and you used a guide, I have to ask does the person in question realise as to why its easy, and that they essentially had their hand held through the content.

I dont stand on a teebox with my golfball in hand, then walk to the green, drop it a foot away tap it in and say " another eagle, this games so easy".

Its essentially what guides are doing.

If you want more challenging content, stop reading your way through it.

And I noticed iceman making a point of how we are tested by flashing screen noises and sentences. I assume your talking about deadly boss mods. An addon, that is literally like putting cheat codes into a console game.

You get told when the boss does what and when, when to move and when to do what.

And people have the cheek to say " wow is ez mode"

What would wow be like wthout deadly boss mods and all these strategy guides?

At the moment, fantastic, amazing, the best game ever, that would be challenging and difficult, and give satisfying rewards for completing content.

But its not, cause we all coast ourselves through raids with our hand held.

And somehow, thats the game designers fault : /

Shougeki

Great idea for a post, even if i may disagree with some of it :P

TheDoc wrote: »

So, got me thinking, just how many people want to go back to the "glory" days of raiding.

Me personally, I think it all stinks of elitism, or complete nostalgia.

I've been playing WoW since the blizzard friends and family alpha, thats nearly 6 years now. Through Vanilla I couldnt get close to end game content for a few reasons.

...

Some of the end game content took nearly 9 hours, from intial raid setup, to completion, thats a hefty part of anyones day to set aside.

...

True, but that was half the fun of it in my mind. I started with vanilla, and played rup until a few months before BC. I was in a guild, and made a lot of friends (that i still go visit once a year or so in denmark/sweden). I enjoyed the perseverence that was required to get that stuff.

TheDoc wrote: »

And lets remember what boss mechanics we had in vanilla. Everything was tank n spank, you had to farm your resi gear, so you could stand in one spot, and just not die from aoe etc.

Now we have advanced mechanics, where you have to move and keep your dps up. Cant think of anything more difficult for a caster dps imo.

True.

TheDoc wrote: »

And remember the most important point. Back in vanilla, you hadnt got a wealth of strategy and tactics websites at your disposal. You hadnt got a guide to hold your hand through every class, and whisper what to do in your ear.

...

AS I said in a previous post, why not try the icc bosses without looking at guides, cause factually I know 99.9% of the guilds finished icc, did look at guides.

Without that absolute bonus, ( which it is) youd find the fights challenging and exciting, and very inventive.

Instead of just knowing whats coming and when and what to do, you get a filthy suprise and theres panic, then people need to react and adjust, instead of being pre-emptive.

I kinda do this without saying it to people when im going toa new boss. If we see repeatd wipes, ill go watcha video or read tactics or whatever. But i generally dont do so beforehand. Ive gotten as far as Fester/Rot on 25. Havent even done putricide on 10/25. Im in no rush, as tbh i moved to join the irish guys as i was getting to serious for my own good with the whole raiding thing.

TheDoc wrote: »

So that leads to an interesting ideal, has the game gotten easier by design, or by the vast amounts of walkthroughs present.

What guilds clear instances without using guides?

Im my opinion if you walk into a raid, clear it relatively quickly, and then say " thats ****, was too easy" and you used a guide, I have to ask does the person in question realise as to why its easy, and that they essentially had their hand held through the content.

I dont stand on a teebox with my golfball in hand, then walk to the green, drop it a foot away tap it in and say " another eagle, this games so easy".

Its essentially what guides are doing.

If you want more challenging content, stop reading your way through it.

Combination of both. It is much easier, even though the tactics are more evolved. Guides only further this.

TheDoc wrote: »

And I noticed iceman making a point of how we are tested by flashing screen noises and sentences. I assume your talking about deadly boss mods. An addon, that is literally like putting cheat codes into a console game.

You get told when the boss does what and when, when to move and when to do what.

And people have the cheek to say " wow is ez mode"

What would wow be like wthout deadly boss mods and all these strategy guides?

At the moment, fantastic, amazing, the best game ever, that would be challenging and difficult, and give satisfying rewards for completing content.

But its not, cause we all coast ourselves through raids with our hand held.

And somehow, thats the game designers fault : /

I would go with a combination. The hardness and dedication required from farming (maybe not as much as vanilla) for gear for 40 man raids, combined with huge instances like MC, with the tactics of todays bosses.

With Gearscore taking over (tbh i dont mind it - i only use it as a guide, and it now has an "experience" section so you can see boss kills etc), and the ability to farm T9 + a few T10 offs like trinket, belt etc VERY quickly, it is bring morons who wouldnt get into raids to the poijnt where they are getting invited.

Example (and uttik would agree here) we had a tank for ICC the other day. He didnt have a clue. TBH i reckon he was a window-licker the speed his brain was processing things at. We would have wiped in UK with him.He had good gear. Correct enchants. He was just dumb as a stone

People like that shouldnt be allowed raid. They make the experience all the worse for the rest of us. And i dont classify myself as a great player either, in case you are being elitist. I still button click for some things :P

With a little more grinding/skill/time/preparation/tactics needed you will quickly weed out these people.

Not sure how they can fix it tbh.

Anti

The feck? where is the TBC option? I didnt get to raid in vanilla.. Because back then i actually had a life and felt no need to spend my free time infront of a computer playing games with moronic 12 year old sweeds !

][cEMAN**

There is really no end game suitable, and ill explain below what it should be

TheDoc wrote: »

Through Vanilla I couldnt get close to end game content for a few reasons.

1)I had no friends that played with me, I was always playing by myself, therefore I'd no one to tell me if/when I was doing something wrong.

2)I had no guild. Obviously hampered me doing any endgame content, and this was because of the next point

3)Mindless grind for stupid resistance gear. Having to spend weeks farming for certain resistance, to go in to have a tank n spank fight. I had not got the time and to be honest didnt want to, did not seem fun one bit.

4)put aside the vast hours required from raid initial setup to completion.

Some of the end game content took nearly 9 hours, from intial raid setup, to completion, thats a hefty part of anyones day to set aside.

But that was the majority of the fun. Getting to know people, grouping with them, and questing/raiding with them. Had no friends? You had to make them. Didn't have a guild? If you couldn't get into one, you had to form one. Mindless grinds? They didn't take as long when your friends worked with you, and shared loot. As for the raiding times, we put in as much time as we felt acceptable, and the progress came from us getting better with practice, rather than spending more time each week to get further with the limited ability we may have started out with.

How many guilds last now for more than a few months? How many people do you know who have been in the same guild since vanilla? Speak to them though and you'll see a completely different player than you'll meet the rest of the time.

Right now the game has no real reason for people to stay in guilds. Without that, they decide that the people they play with are there to be used. It's a very single minded idea in the game today. It's not just about the usual children who spam crap, abuse people in trade, or do things to annoy others, but rather an enhanced version of the internet anonymity causing a single minded approach. There are plenty who would rather play this game alone. Have it so that everything in end game content could be solo'd. But then why play online? Why not have wow as a single player game that you can download updates for from time to time?

Maybe it's the chicken and the egg here. Maybe Blizzard changing the content design caused a different group/individual mentality in the game, or maybe the influx of new customers over the years have slowly changed that mentality, and it's what's causing the game to seem different.

TheDoc wrote: »

And I noticed iceman making a point of how we are tested by flashing screen noises and sentences. I assume your talking about deadly boss mods. An addon, that is literally like putting cheat codes into a console game.

Actually I was talking about achievements. It seems people get so caught up with the flashing achievement in the middle of their screen that the idea of getting something done for the enjoyment of it has gone out the window.
"I need more achievement points, I must go farm blah blah blah"

You do make a good point though. The guides are making the game even easier than it is (I still maintain the content is mostly easier - there were plenty of non tank and spank fights in vanilla). The cry of the raid leader is now all too often "I hope you all read the link I posted and know this fight inside and out". You have videos of the fight before you go into the room, so it takes away the surprise. You have a list of all of the abilities so rather than trying to figure out what the hell just hit you, you have a raid leader shouting at you "why didn't you move, did you not read your tactics?".

Totc nearly killed this game for me, but not completely, not yet. I've said enough times that ICC was like BT for me with the trash packs. As enjoyable as the bosses. Not really difficult, but something to sink your teeth into.

Something to point out when I say that, I was never in a BT raiding guild. I don't consider myself to be a great player, but rather someone who read the theorycrafting on his main, and has repeatedly tried the same things from enough angles to eventually find what works like clockwork. An example being that I was pvping with prot/holy in wotlk before it became so popular, and i'd have to explain why to people who laughed at me doing so.
I would say i'm good, but as I mentioned in the other thread, I don't think it really goes beyond that any more. However, I did push people towards BT, and made PUGs to go in. I made more friends outside of my guild than inside, due to taking in and helping anyone who didn't act like a pretentious prick. When they got taught, or learnt their classes well enough to move to the next step I would push people to raid what was just beyond their reach. I hated the idea of guilds who would farm raids because it was easier than pushing themselves to learn a new one. A big problem in TBC tbh.

Going back to your original points though, i'll have to say maybe I have an idealistic idea of what it used to be like, and i'm keeping it held high in my mind. I would also say though that based on what you pointed out about your own vanilla experience, you missed out on so much of it, and not just in the raiding side.

Magill

wheres the 'I loved vanilla, i didnt suck and only spent 4 hours raiding'option ?

Shougeki

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;64529402']
Actually I was talking about achievements. It seems people get so caught up with the flashing achievement in the middle of their screen that the idea of getting something done for the enjoyment of it has gone out the window.
"I need more achievement points, I must go farm blah blah blah"

I actually like the achievement system. It gives me a sense of accomplishment. I dont have to do it, and i know that, but i enjoy the thought of sticking with something till its done. A goal if you will. EG when im bored or waiting for something, im completeing Loremaster. Im not going ALL out, but when i have a little spare time i try to get a bit done. Same with Ambassador. [I am talking about non dungeon achievs]

But i also know its not for everyone.

][cEMAN**

There is really no end game suitable, and ill explain below what it should be

Accomplishment used to come from other things in the game. Gaining rep for the sake of the reputation. Gaining rep for crafting. Being a crafter with as many patterns as possible gained you a rep. PvP (bad example, due to the amount of hours needed). Raiding and putting down bosses was an accomplishment. You didn't get flashing lights on the screen, but rather the cheer of the guild for doing what they set out to do.

Have the things you do in the game lost so much meaning that you have to be told you did good? Get a pat on the back?

If you like it, fair enough. I'm not trying to put you down on it, i'm just pointing out that if you like this, what's missing from the game that you should like instead of it? Wow has been going for many years before the achievement system.

Shougeki

I see them as goals. I dont need flashing lights, or even rewards. Gives me something to do while playing is all. I see progression as a reward and accomplishment in itself. The achievments are just things to aim for in my spare time.

and i played in vanilla, before the achievs. I still went and farmed hyrdraxian / timbermaw etc rep for the fun of it. I dont care if other people look on it and think good or bad. I go for achievs (and some other non-achiev things) that i feel like doing. For example i dont really do PvP at all. never got into it. I dont go chasing any of them because i have no interest.

Nehaxak

I like the present setup

Vanilla for me, was nothing better than raid leading and Main Tanking an MC or Ony raid with 40 people, great craic indeed and still keep in contact with some friends from my first big raiding guild (Regulators on SilverMoon Horde) all them years ago.

The pvp back then was also brilliant.

When I hit 80 on my DK and had enough decent gear, I went and solo'd Onyxia every week for the sake of nostalgia :P

TechnoPool

lets be honest here, there was guides around for everything even MC back in the day. So.... and yes they were used.

Overheal

Wheres the 'Nobody plays Classic Raids anymore so how the **** would I know?' option?

Setting up some classic raidslots for this weekend though. have to see if it doesnt fall apart.

Dr_Teeth

There is really no end game suitable, and ill explain below what it should be

The present setup is the best, apart from the prevalence of addons. Anyone who thinks Classic raiding was better must be crazy.

Shougeki

I personally dont think Classic Raiding was better, but i would take elements from both then and present. Raiding should be on a grand scale, a big deal. An *almost* unattainable goal, without at least a modicum of dedication, perseverance, sweat and tears...

TechnoPool

i found tempest keep and SSC to me most enjoyable raiding times.

Noxin

I like the present setup

Vanilla by far.

I used to really enjoy those fights. Had some of my best fun online during the Baron Geddon fights.
!!YOU ARE THE BOMB!!
/target random player or group of players. Run to them. Watch them scampering out of the way while yelling on vent for me to fcuk off all the while pissing themselves laughing.

Great craic

Or being a melee shammy with no ability to control threat. WF proc (old style) multiple times = insta agro with little to no ability to get rid of it again!!

regi

Everquest raiding, circa Velious

StinkyMunkey

I'd take present but have deadly boss mods and guides extinct

TheDoc wrote: »

: /

You pretty much summed it up for me there. I'm playing since 06, with a year or so break inbetween. I never had the option to do raid's or dungeon's even back in Vanilla. I pretty much stumbled my way through the game on my own with little or no help. I love the current setup, where even though i cant do the top end raid's because or real life, i still have access to things i never did before.

I had to laugh at the points you made in the initial post, people using guide's, addon's, vent etc, and then complaining about how easy the game is.

Read any guild charter for joining and they will exspect you to have read the guide's for the higher end content along with having the correct addon's.

Im what you would call one of those player's that just manage's to get by. I learn from my mistake's, but dont spend all day looking at guide's for this and that.

People spend weeks preparing for new content collecting gear among other stuff. All the top guild's then go and clear the end game stuff, then present other's with the guide's for doing so.

The people ive gotten to know over the year's playing now help me with stuff when i get stuck. But any time im in a guild, it's always with the social rank. The vast majority of people playing WoW as casual gamer's and now have access to alot more content in the game. I'd love to have more time to play, but the reality is i dont!

Overheal

The one thing that really bothers me about raiding is not even the addon or the vent requirement of most guilds, its the ones that say Study These Fights or dont play. Its a game I want to experience it first hand, I dont want to Spoil a Boss fight. Half the fun is in the surprise. Why should I study the Lich King fight? Washes down the whole experience imo.

Thats before you getting started on the pricks that will expect you to dual spec one way or the other. Im pretty set on having a PvE and an Arena spec. And Im not gonna make myself a Tank/Healadin just to satisfy your poor organizational skills.

ZorbaTehZ

I like the present setup

Raiding the 40mans in vanilla was probably the most fun I've ever had playing any video game tbh.

DRakE

I like the present setup

Blackwing Lair is probably the most fun I've ever had playing WoW

Bhoy_

I really enjoyed TK/SSC and hyjal/BT. Difficult and really fun, never had the chance to raid Sunwell, but from what I've heard it was really good.

The raid set up is quite good now, but the numbers are way too big. Tanks rarely go low and that just kills the healing buzz.

TechnoPool

People gave out saying Vanilla raids where the best, so blizzard re released Naxx and ony!!

then people gave out about them re using old content, cant satisfy some people.

][cEMAN**

There is really no end game suitable, and ill explain below what it should be

To be fair, a lot of people griped more about them not doing the old content justice when it got re-released. Naxx is a shadow of its former self (apparently), and Onyxia was just too easy as well.

Overheal

Its not as if the old raids arent difficult. We tried to 20-man AQ and tank'n'spank it - this, was an error. By the time you get to the 2 big golem bosses who heal eachother and melee this ranged that, you're ready to have your ass handed to you.

You'd be surprised how much life you can breathe back into the old raids by under-manning them though. Hyjal is great to try with 10-15.

][cEMAN**

There is really no end game suitable, and ill explain below what it should be

Considering Onyxia used to be a 40 man raid, and then was easily solo'able, undermanning is still overpowering any old content.

Overheal

I dunno about that, I've never once done Ony. Maybe I ought to.

ZG, AQ, MC [we 2 manned it, I took 3 hits, realized it was a terrible idea and ran back out], Hyjal. AQ trash felt easy but i liked the raid, the bosses were still very thoughtful and challenging. But ZG was a bunch of "Wtf do I do here?" wander around + tank'n'spank; and Hyjal's Invisible Wall outside of the SW base was needlessly confusing.

I cant speak for wrath raids. But it seems as though you need a special degree or PHD to do some of these raids, just to know wtf youre meant to be at. They need to do a lot more work in the level design to bring it up to a level where the players should know pretty immediately what they need to be doing, without necessarily spelling it out or making it pisswater. This is why Nexus is a good Dungeon and Gnomeregan is a Bad Dungeon. Deadmines also gets major brownie points. And the CoT Dungeons are just fantastic.

In comparison, the Raids I've played so far (for the most part) are much more confusing. Add to that youre trying to coordinate 10-40 players. ZG was especially bad for this. Hyjal less so, but we lost the raid because they all came to the conclusion it was bugged - many of them having never played it(!)

I hate to compare it to Megaman but ****, those levels were hard as balls and fun as hell - not because you ever had to google the solution, but because the puzzle wasn't Davinci's Code and it was just a matter of getting your timing right. Half my time in a Wow raid is spent on wowhead. I dont consider it fun anymore than a cakewalk.

Maybe im just talking outta my ass

Dustaz

Your talking about a few different things in that post and people have corrected some of them but heres my take.

1. Guides were always around. Conquest released MC guides after they got banned (unfairly imo) for exploiting garr i think. Everyone and their mother knew the tactics for the bosses mc and onwards.

2. Boss mods dont actually cheat. They use all the information that is available on your screen - mostly in plain black and white in your chat log. They just tidy and it up and yes of course they make it easier with massive warnings. Again these have been around a long long long time and theres really no percentage in not using them. Its a bit like saying all addons are a crutch and you shouldnt use them.

3. The best mix of raiding would be late TBC with some of the wotlk ideals. Really quite east attunements mean people who qualify for the latest tier of content have actually put some work into it and earlier tiers are open to all and nerfed. Throw 10 man and badges in there and you've got what we have now without spoonfeeding people.

4. Fights have got harder. Back in MC when a lot of the population was new to mmo raiding (all the early progression guilds were EQ guilds simply because noone had a clue) and a fairly straightforward tank and spank fight had people stumped. Initially blizzard went for things like Resistance gear and an untenable number of a certain class (4hm was just plain stupid when you consider that there was no such thing as a tank that wasnt a warrior back then) as well as just plain making a boss unkillable to make things hard. Since then however they learned and when they shrank raid size to 25 they had to get creative with fights in tk, ssc, bt and sunwell. These fights WERE really hard and complex and fun to learn. They recycled nax which is fine by me personally for an entry level raid and then came up wuth ulduar which is up there with the tbc raids in terms of fight complexity. Unfortunatly then they went and dropped the ball with toc and to a much larger degree icc. While fun and sometimes a little unique, the fights in icc are all undertuned. Heroic doesnt actually change gameplay enough as it should (sarth3d is a brilliant example of heroic mode bringing new elements to the table) only increasing hp and damage with only a couple of fights getting anything new in terms of gameplay.


So yeh, heres hoping they tune things up in cataclysm.

Dustaz

http://www.mmo-champion.com/general-discussions-22/warcraft-raiding-has-not-become-easier/

Good post which explains why raiding 40 man was hard but not because the boss mechanics were hard.

i dont fully agree about the wotlk stuff, but good post all the same